spiritual development

[sooo]

"I have my own ideas of spirit and the spirit world, none of which I can prove, none of which are spelled out in the IC."

I would very much appraciate if you could expand on that, please. :bows:

Hi Annamarie,

Do you mean expand upon what my ideas of spirit and the spirit world is/are, or expand on them not being spelled out in the Yijing? Let me assume first that you mean the former, which is based on numerous sources, from personal experience to knowledge of certain traditions that make the most sense to me.

First, I've never not been interested in things pertaining to spiritual ideas. I was born into Roman Catholicism, the old school. I went through the catechisms and ceremonies, and not until my later teen years did I lose my enthusiasm for the mysteries, many mysteries since the mass was performed in a language I didn't understand. But the stained glass windows depicting the stations of the cross, the strange man hanging on a cross, the magical odor of frankincense, the pomp, the magical transformation that was happening within the curtain of the Eucharist, changing his blood to wine, his body into bread, and vice verse, all of it a big and wonderful mystery to me as a boy. I walked to church and back alone each week. It wasn't until I began playing with girls, that Saturday became the day of guilt (confession), and making it from Saturday night to Sunday morning without sinning made it nearly impossible to take communion with a clear conscience. I lost interest and began seeing it in a very different light. I sinned my brains out as a young but gleeful sailor, and was married in an Episcopal church after I was honorably discharged. It was my wife's religion and she was three months pregnant. My Italian extended family was not at all happy about the whole thing.

Shortly after I was introduced to the I Ching, and studied the Greek philosophers with my best friend, who soon after introduced me to Wilhelm's I Ching. I was a born again Taoist! Through the course of that decade I studied and practiced nearly ever type of spiritualism and eastern religion I could find, joined a Krishna group for awhile, began daily meditation, did countless LSD, mushroom and mescaline trips with an aim toward shamanistic understanding, and eventually finding my way back to a hybrid of Christian and Taoist beliefs, reading the so-call red letters of Jesus' words and seeing him as a Taoist Jew. For three years I called myself a Taoist Christian, which left me in a zone that met with disapproval from both schools.

I took particular interest in biblical prophecy, which led me to a full scale Christian conversion, which I dedicated my life to Christ for the next 20 years, serving in the music ministry and practicing the gifts of the Spirit, particularly the gift of healing, and a teacher of the gifts of the Spirit. Secretly, all the while recognizing the teaching of Jesus' parables being akin to the metaphors of I Ching, and of all the other eastern religions I had previously engaged in. The Bible is, after all, derived from eastern thought, before it ever reached the shores of Greece and Britain, where it became a fixture known as the King James Bible (what a travesty). Upon seeing through the control and money machine which the church had become (a den of thieves, in Jesus' words), I left, forfeiting my salvation and taking the plunge willingly into the pit of hell, where through powerful dream images, I was able to overcome my own demons, or rather the fear of my daemons, and began the slow ascent to regaining my mind and my living soul, finding Christ within me. So once again I'm something of a Taoist Christian.

I now view the death experience as the reversal of the rising energy body, and see the experience as written in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Chikhai Bardo and the Chonyid Bardo only of course visualizing our own lifetime images rather than those of the ancient Tibetan culture, as starting from the Crown Chakra, or what the Christian doctrine called the Glorified Body. This is the state of clear light, liberated from attachment to ego and bodily form, just the flash of clear light, and from there, as remembrances of earthly life return and ones attachment to it grows, the spirit becomes more dense, and the decent begins, next to the Brow or Third Eye chakra, where one either holds to or continues to descend as their spirit becomes more dense, a more gross energy form, to the throat (etheric) chakra, and downward to the heart (astral) chackra; where if the soul still "doesn't get it" and clings all the more to the remembrance of their earthly form and attachments to it, elements of anger, resentment, fear, hate, etc, causes the soul to be come yet more dense and weighted down, whereupon the descent continues downward to the the Solar Plexus Chakra, the energy of intellect , whereupon if they still don't (by now) figure out what's happening, they gravitate further downward to the emotional or Spleen chakra. Without the clear light or lesser but higher than emotional level, they enter into hellish realms, which lead them to seek the security of a physical body, thus reentering a body and couple suited to their state of their soul, and are reborn to repeat the cycle again.

That is my spiritual belief. But being a concept and a belief, I can't say I know it to be true. The truth may be that upon death there is black silence with no senses of any kind, yet returning to the earth from where their body came, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The fact is, I don't know. But as spiritual possibilities goes, what I've described is makes the most sense to me, and has likeness found in one form or other in all world religions, including a heaven, purgatory, hell, karma, dharma, and all the rest.

I hope that wasn't too much information to address your question. :bows:

 

[Annamaria]

I hope that wasn't too much information to address your question. :bows:[/QUOTE]
Hi again sooo,
That what you shared here was so beautiful that i have difficulties finding apropriate words to express how thankful and gratful i am to you, not everyone has this kind of courage, but you do, thank You! And yes, you have understood my question, :bows:

 

[sooo]

Hi again sooo,
That what you shared here was so beautiful that i have difficulties finding apropriate words to express how thankful and gratful i am to you, not everyone has this kind of courage, but you do, thank You! And yes, you have understood my question, :bows:

Thank you, Annamaria.

It would be my wish that everyone would share their personal beliefs based on their life experience and acquired knowledge during their lifetime. I don't understand why it requires bravery to be open and candid about such things, nor can I think of anything more interesting to share with others within a community. Why is their experience with spiritual ideas and personal beliefs so difficult to share? And secondly, why do those with a faith feel the need to cling to them as though they are facts rather than their personal beliefs, which are but concepts, and admit that they are so? Why do the doors need to be shut, which shut out all other concepts and ideas? These are not things we can prove to be facts, even as we experience them in the Bardo environment, which is the whole point and reason for the Bardo experience. Why can't someone who experiences a deity perceive that deity as part of their own being, rather than being a separate entity, whether they be devils or angelic in nature? I believe there can only be one in the final analysis, so what is there that separates us, other than being particles of the whole wave of existence and consciousness? And why can't we see ourselves in others and others in ourselves? How many difficulties that would solve! Otherwise what can the word spiritual really mean? There is one Spirit but with countless faces, countless particles, countless identities.

Is this only my belief, or is it not so? To me, it would make for a most interesting conversation, yet it is more rare than the tooth of a hen. Why must one be brave to share this with others? What is there to fear or to lose? If it is uninteresting, why throw the word 'spiritual' around like a rubber ball?

I ask this of anyone, not Annamaria alone. I'd really like to understand. Every previous attempt has failed. How do you explain all this, going on all around us in this world? What does Spiritual mean to you? And if you can't explain it, why do you bother continue using this word as an answer?

Forgive me if I sound demanding. I'm not demanding, but it is a mystery to me, how we can talk about Spiritual Development. I am not in the least spiritually developed, I have only developed ideas about the Spirit or spirit, none of which I can prove. That's one reason I love the Dalai Lama, believed to be the incarnate Avalokiteśvara, who states: "My religion is kindness." Very simple and unpretentious.

 

[Trojina]

I ask this of anyone, not Annamaria alone. I'd really like to understand. Every previous attempt has failed. How do you explain all this, going on all around us in this world? What does Spiritual mean to you? And if you can't explain it, why do you bother continue using this word as an answer?

Well speaking for myself ;

1. I have been hanging around this forum for a long time with over 10,000 posts and I reckon I've said it all before.

2. I'm finding I get less and less interested in academic or hypothetical discussions of spirituality. This might be because I'm into my 50s now, I'm an old woman and I've seen that people can discuss spirituality till they are blue in the face but it doesn't actually in practice make much difference to anything. I can grapple with the most profound spiritual considerations yet it makes me no less impatient waiting in traffic...or impatient generally. I think spirituality has to be lived more than talked about. It's different for younger people maybe they need and want to discuss it more.

I recall a man giving a talk telling us how he had attended a Great seminar on spirituality and the famous and esteemed speaker had given this amazing talk. But at the end he noticed the man turned and shouted at his wife because she hadn't bought the tea in or something. That is how little academic ideas and so on permeate real life IMO.

3. Haven't us forum dinosaurs discussed all this continuously off and on over at least 10 years here ?

I now tend just not to read long posts about the soul and tao and wotnot.

Also I reckon it might be a male/female difference. Isn't it common in many cultures that whilst the men sit talking philosophy the women are making the food, nursing the sick and chatting about what's really happening. Oh that may be sexist of course women are just as capable as men of thinking but I do see a difference in their spheres of interest. Hnce often SR is more female orientated and this section more male somehow




I'm currently slightly more interested in ordinary people's experiences of the I Ching than I am in academics ideas about it. Ideally I'd aim to have a perfect balance of both but the way I am naturally orientated now I do switch off a bit in the whole 'spiritual discussion' area.

I have a full spiritual life and use the word without shame but I don't think I could be bothered to sit here and explain it all. It's not that complex anyway, I mean my ideas are not that complex.


Besides I don't have time I have some cleaning to do

 

[Annamaria]

Thank you, Annamaria.

It would be my wish that everyone would share their personal beliefs based on their life experience and acquired knowledge during their lifetime. I don't understand why it requires bravery to be open and candid about such things, nor can I think of anything more interesting to share with others within a community. Why is their experience with spiritual ideas and personal beliefs so difficult to share? And secondly, why do those with a faith feel the need to cling to them as though they are facts rather than their personal beliefs, which are but concepts, and admit that they are so? Why do the doors need to be shut, which shut out all other concepts and ideas? These are not things we can prove to be facts, even as we experience them in the Bardo environment, which is the whole point and reason for the Bardo experience. Why can't someone who experiences a deity perceive that deity as part of their own being, rather than being a separate entity, whether they be devils or angelic in nature? I believe there can only be one in the final analysis, so what is there that separates us, other than being particles of the whole wave of existence and consciousness? And why can't we see ourselves in others and others in ourselves? How many difficulties that would solve! Otherwise what can the word spiritual really mean? There is one Spirit but with countless faces, countless particles, countless identities.

Is this only my belief, or is it not so? To me, it would make for a most interesting conversation, yet it is more rare than the tooth of a hen. Why must one be brave to share this with others? What is there to fear or to lose? If it is uninteresting, why throw the word 'spiritual' around like a rubber ball?

I ask this of anyone, not Annamaria alone. I'd really like to understand. Every previous attempt has failed. How do you explain all this, going on all around us in this world? What does Spiritual mean to you? And if you can't explain it, why do you bother continue using this word as an answer?

Forgive me if I sound demanding. I'm not demanding, but it is a mystery to me, how we can talk about Spiritual Development. I am not in the least spiritually developed, I have only developed ideas about the Spirit or spirit, none of which I can prove. That's one reason I love the Dalai Lama, believed to be the incarnate Avalokiteśvara, who states: "My religion is kindness." Very simple and unpretentious.

Dear Bruce
I hope that it is ok with you that i address you with your name. If not just tell me not to and i stop. I just wanted to say that i agree with you, and that we better develop our kindness, let's start maybe with practising kindness to one's Self. Warmly, Anna

 

[Trojina]

Yes to sum up, before I clean the windows and my food cupboard I think what people do is more important in terms of spiritual development than anything they believe.

There are many very good kind people who are atheists. To me these people may be more spiritually developed than someone who writes books on it all. People can be highly spiritually developed without ever even given the idea of spirituality a lot of thought IMO.


As for the 'we are all one' well yes it's all fine to think it but does it impact on our behaviour in any way at all ? I don't think so really.

I think people are as spiritual asking about their families or their jobs as they would be monitoring themselves all the time for any sign of ego.

I might have said before but the greatest egotists I have ever encountered are the ones who lecture others extensively on the evils of the ego. It's made me laugh as often they will be lecturing some woman/man who is living her entire life selflessly. She may be caring for kids or parents and so on and then this big philosopher type person starts lecturing all about the ego.


That's what I think. Now I really should do something useful I suppose.

Oh BTW I see nothing wrong in anyone continuing these discussions at all. I was just explaining my own position/POV. I don't have a problem with anyone discussing these things at all I 'm just not very interested for all the reasons given. I did used to discuss this kind of thing much more when younger and enjoy it...but frankly I have seen whatever my ideas are they are just ideas. The development I need also to work on are emotional/practical etc etc Every single part of life is also part of spiritual development.
It cannot be separate. The way I see it kindness comes from the heartt not the head and I suppose kindness as far as I am concerned is the most important thing spiritually. But does my idea about that impact on my behaviour ? Not really...it's all a work in progress isn't it ?

Oh wow I hadn't read all of the above posts and just scrolled up and see 'kindness' has already been mentioned several times ! heh ! I hadn't seen that when I wrote the last paragraph.

 

[Trojina]

Having said that there is no use just being kind without also having clear sightedness (hex 30) so I don't think one quality or even any quality is really what spirituality is about.

One could be unintelligently kind to a mass murderer and enable him to go kill a few more people. Kindness is not all wishy washy nicey nicey stuff . For greater good sometimes unkindness for a purpose in necessary like in wars...like in Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna does not wish to kill his countrymen does he but Krishna explains (have I got that right . I think so).

Anyway in a nutshell I don't participate in long discussions about definitions of spirituality as it doesn't interest me so much anymore, nothing much to do with bravery or lack of it.....

I do often say I don't think the I Ching is the collective unconscious and all that stuff.....but in the end I guess I don't really mind what people's spiritual beliefs are or what they think the I Ching is. In the end it doesn't make a lot of real difference I find.

I am not sure I actually understood Anna's original question....but I would say Anna I don't recommend any I Ching book that purports to be a spiritual interpretation of the I Ching. In Taoism nature is flow is spirit isn't it ? No special other book is needed

 

[sooo]

Dear Bruce
I hope that it is ok with you that i address you with your name. If not just tell me not to and i stop. I just wanted to say that i agree with you, and that we better develop our kindness, let's start maybe with practising kindness to one's Self. Warmly, Anna

Hi Annamaria,

Bruce is my birth name. Please feel free to use it. My spiritual name is, ,and you may use that too.

About kindness, I don't claim to be an example of kindness, and some things I say sound too direct and candid rather than kind. Rather, my point was that a man who is recognized by millions as supreme deity incarnate doesn't pontificate, as many religious leaders do, but simply is kind, so much as to claim that kindness is his religion. The god of Tibetan Buddhism says kindness is his religion. It is his genuine humility that endears me toward him, though he has much wisdom and knowledge, both religious and practical, he expresses them as being one in the same with his simple acknowledgment: My religion is kindness. I just love and respect that.

 

[rosada]

I see Spiritual Development as meaning developing and strengthening ones awareness of spirit, the inner feeling which can inform us of The Flow more accurately than the outer world manifestations. We are relying on spirit anytime we make decisions based on a feeling like, "I feel like wearing red today" rather than on a mental calculation like "I wore blue yesterday." I'm thinking spiritual development is also happening when we think of other people's feelings, reactions - like when you send someone an email and in your mind you are calculating, "Am I saying this right? How are they going to take this?" Or you send the email and a second later you realize, "Oh, they're going to take that wrong." As one develops this ability I see this as strengthening this spirit.

Perhaps one of the by products of this is as one comes to recognize that they will feel in their own gut the other person's reaction, experience, then one becomes more conscious of not wanting to cause any hard energy that is going to boomerang back, and thus the awareness that it is wise to practice the religion of kindness.

Furthermore, as we make a habit of tuning into our inner feelings and putting the receiving into practice we are strengthening our trust and thus our ability to be informed and guided by spirit - which can make for a much more subtle, individualized and exciting journey!

I see patterns in 48. The Well and in 50. The Ting for restoring and utilizing our gift for knowing Divine Will.

For example...
48.1 Inner feelings have been ignored and forgotten.
48.2 Our ability to connect with our inner feelings has been crippled.
48.3 We can regenerate our connection with our inner feelings by putting them to use.

Gotta get other things taken care of..
Rosada

 

[anemos]

I have seen the " my religion is kindness" and his "loving -kindness and compassion" , about 100 time during 3 weeks in another place were the most ugliest fight took place under the "roof" of those concepts. The prize ? To win a meeting with Dalai Lama.

Kindness became a Religion and had nothing to do with honesty or good manners- Very sad experience.


I see spirit as the vibrations of the various parts of an Individual , intermingled tho with other's people. We are a wave in a ocean and the ocean itself. We Inspire and be Inspired. I see it as a metaphor and literally too. Its everything we are; not only the higher, the inner etc etc. What happens inside , what resonates , vibrates...

"Spiritual Development" its a concept I don't get, looking around me. Sometimes becomes a tricky attachment- this is what i have experience in some people. I see it very simple, maybe simplistic. I see it as quieting the inner wars happening in the internal battlefield.

It perplex me also why some people think a lot about afterlife and neglect our time here, like its not important. I once asked someone preaching me about religion that question and got trapped to a parroting session of the holy book.

whether there is a soul or spirit and lives after we depart; whether we have only this one life of not , I do believe to the metaphor of those notions. They are eternal, the leave traces, and live in on form or another.

spiritual development, imo, is to Un-develope , as a said earlier. A h23 process, with the sharp knifes but the compassion of the Image too.

 

[sooo]

My wife and I paid to attend a weekend in upstate New York with the famous guru, Swami Satchidananda. The second day men and women were divided and assigned various stations, like our barracks where we slept, to wash screens, windows, floors and toilets. He called it Karma Yoga. Now, I have a concept of Karma Yoga which is enduring in affect and is a developed discipline, requiring not only the work but the reasons and attitudes of performing the work, such as shoveling up the horse manure and wheeling it to the dumpster in front of the property. It's a meditation for me, not a way to work off negative karma. Anyway, that night we sat and listened to this guru talk and teach. All was peace and bliss the following morning, until we got in our VW bus for the ride home, when my wife broke into a hissy fit because I did not acknowledge her as our segregated groups passed each other by on our way to our so-called karma yoga work stations. Within ten minutes, all hell broke loose and didn't let up even after the two hour ride back home. To me the entire weekend was a waste of time and money and felt I'd been taken for a ride. But that doesn't make the joy of cleaning the horse stalls and corral any less joyful or personally rewarding, or for that matter, less spiritual.

One can choose to be bitter over past personal reasons, which may have little to no grounding in objective reality, or one can practice the joy of the moment where doing the work is the source of a nice samadhi. What a shame it would be to hold onto ones own bitterness due to a subjective interpretation of a past experience and lose the potential joy in the present work. It is ones own bitterness which is to blame, that is breaking the clay pot which hauls up the water from the well.

 

[anemos]

To me the entire weekend was a waste of time and money and felt I'd been taken for a ride. But that doesn't make the joy of cleaning the horse stalls and corral any less joyful or personally rewarding, or for that matter, less spiritual.

To me wasn't a waste of time. The whole class was excellent and enjoyed it immensely. Nothing to do with spiritual things directly yet , indirectly you would see many aspects of what means to be a human and especially in a social context. The Competition part went off track, yet not sure about it because whatever happen those three weeks was priceless in the context of this course. Was the theory vs reality. Maybe it was the Professor intention or just some of us regarded it that way. One could see various forces clashing or cooperating.

I had no interest for the competition at the end, but I can't helped to feel sad for that unnecessary-imo- violence or feel sad for those were not treated equally... but it was one of those life experiences were you can see clearly daemons and gods ; yours and other peoples' too... its those times you can feel how powerless you are- can't change the situation and at the same time you can see your own "power"

 

[sooo]

I think we can agree, that many ugly things happen because the spirit (as a verb) of the principle had been perverted to a dogma to fight over. When you say: "Kindness became a Religion and had nothing to do with honesty or good manners- Very sad experience," do you think this is what the Dalai Lama meant by "my religion is kindness"? If not, why make this comparison and bitter association? Do you think this is what I intended by quoting him? If not, then why make this comparison and bitter association? Where does this bitterness come from?

 

[anemos]

When you say: "Kindness became a Religion and had nothing to do with honesty or good manners- Very sad experience," do you think this is what the Dalai Lama meant by "my religion is kindness"?

No,that was exactly my point. The problem arose when we had to grade the significance and the "long-term effect" of our action to a Day of Compassion we ask to do. The real conflict the great majority of people agreed as being was that task. scientifically and rationally there was no way. Then , the war started and saw that saying used in the most inconceivable ways and so against D.Lama's words that are so easy to find them it his website or other sources.

I recall vivid a incident. Well , the assignment was to spend one day thinking and doing things re to compassion reflect and write a small paper on those reflections. There was a woman , nurse if i recall correct, that reported that she felt awful for not doing anything tangible , like a big event to feed all the poor in her country, but instead reflect of her feeling , and how awful she felt for no being her real self, one that love her job, helping people in her working environment and participating in other voluntary setting. Truths, like that, a well known situation called compassion fatigue, or other similar situation, were the ones that addressed from those "kind" people talking and Using D.Lamas words to justify their abusing and totally inconsiderable manner. They couldn't comprehend them- fair enough , yet the had an "opinion"- fair enough again but unfair and wrong. They turn that phrase into a Crusade against those people that didn't "obey"... Now, the quotes of D.Lama speaking of self compassion, to them were irrelevant....

Among other "take home" messages, those people taught me how easy is to be in that mode and act inconsistently with spoken words.

If not, why make this comparison and bitter association? Do you think this is what I intended by quoting him? If not, then why make this comparison and bitter association? Where does this bitterness come from?

It makes me sad, when I see such simple and profound truths, such notion that address humans regardless religion, core human needs being twisted in such ways as I have experience in that incident. I don't think DL, neither you, talking about another Religion but about what religion is - the core of it. I didn't misunderstood you , I know what you mean.

It was sad to experience that situation, painful. You see that abuse before you and there is not much you can do to reverse it. The only you can do is offer another perspective, to say to that woman that you are not a bad person for not been able to do that, to let her know that her contribution counts a lot to the "compassion" project we were on.

Those inner working, are very personal imo and not easy understood by everyone. personal and sacred. What happens inside Is sacred. Acknowledging this for our-self helps us to acknowledge it to others to. And the same bitterness we hold for ourselves and other transforms to sweetness- effortlessly .

If you have experience that, the bitter pill thought painful experiences become a nourishing sweet candy, then you know what I mean. Its one of the forms of Freedom, imo. That's how I take DL's words.

 

[sooo]

Ah, I understand now. Thank you for explaining it, Maria. Yes, I agree, it is sad, and all too common with numerous good points people have made, or tried to make. Completely changing the spirit of what was said and then making an argument against it.

 

[anemos]

thanks for asking . I read again my post and realized that some details were missing.

 

[rosada]

I'm confused. Anemos and Bruce, Did you two go to the same weekend?

 

[sooo]

I'm confused. Anemos and Bruce, Did you two go to the same weekend?

chuckle, no, Rosada. Nor were our impressions of the events we separately attended the same. I really felt the entire event I attended was a pretentious scam, but chose to go along with it since my wife and I already paid the freight for it, and I did experience by the end of the weekend a very mellow mindset, until the wife and I got back to our vehicle for the ride back home. The blow up between my ex and I only clinched it for me. Guru, sshmooroo for me, from that point on.

I think Maria's experience was quite different, by the way she described it, though I won't speak for her experience, which I evidently misinterpreted.

 

[rosada]

Thinking about your weekend experience Bruce I see another perspective which I share with you here just because it's interesting to see how other people respond to our stories. Knowing you're a pretty unflappable kinda guy I'm guessing you'll tolerate my ramblings…

As I understand it you and your wife were in different groups. When you realized what the weekend was going to be you had a choice of either resisting and pronouncing it a scam or deciding to make the best of it. Because you had invested your money in the experience you were more motivated to go along with the program and see if you could get something out of it. Your wife on the other hand, off in her group, was perhaps not so committed? In fact, she may have been more invested in the weekend being a flop? Whatever, you totally got into the chop-wood/carry-water exercise and actually had a sense of realignment with your inner truth - a truth that did not require you to maintain any facade of partnership and thus when you passed your wife you were no longer playing a role, particularly the husband role. And so while it may have appeared to be small thing, your failure to salute signified that on the deeper inner level you felt a detachment that she found disturbing. Paniced to get you to re-enlist and play husband (for without you to hold up your end of the charade she could no longer play wife and would have to look deeper into her own life.) she engaged you in an argument for certainly one of the surest ways to keep people connected to you is to get them into a fight. Because she was grouchy and combative, you interpreted this as a sign the spiritual workshop/weekend had been a failure. I suggest you could interpret the experience as showing the weekend had been a stunning success. "Spiritual Development" is often assumed to mean we are learning to be nicer people but actually we can't know what it's going to lead to. Like Spiritual Development doesn't mean we're going to change the truth - rather it means we're becoming strong enough to see it, that is, strong enough to face the reality of our situation. In your case, the experience allowed you to see that you on your own were a happy mellow guy who deep down was not needing to be joined at the hip with a wife. In fact, it even went so far as to allow you to see how completely you-in-happy-mode clashed with her idea of how you should be. She on the other hand had not chosen to get into the weekend and so it seems that when the truth that came up for her, she instead wanted to maintain a false reality. So the weekend revealed a hard unpleasant truth about your relationship, but as you two eventually split up anyway perhaps it was inevitable you would come up against this truth. The Spiritual Development weekend didn't cause or solve the problem, but it did reveal it.

Just my 2 cents,
Rosada

 

[tomorton]

At this stage in my life I am trying to use the I Ching more often and regularly and therefore to gain stronger guidance rather than decisions from the text. So I am actively avoiding asking specific questions, I am more in favour of asking the I what is important to consider in the next few days.

If something significant happens within the next few days I would consult the I again.

I know the ancient Chinese used to consult the I on very specific questions, but I wonder if that really acknowledges the inter-connectivity of everything we experience. So I find it artifical to ask the I how to make decisions at work but to separately ask it how to make decisions in the home or regarding friendships.

 

[sooo]

Very interesting, and I would say accurate analysis, Rosada. I should have paid you the 200 hundred bucks rather than pay it to the guru wearing a Rolex and traveling in a limo.

She took it very personally, while I invested fully into the experience. The whole point of dividing into gender groups was so that we remained focused on our meditation without usual distractions of relationships. I was in meditation as our groups passed by, while she was going through the motions, and thus was highly offended that I had, what she called, ignored her. And as it turned out, as you astutely pointed out, this difference between us ultimately was the core or root problem which eventually led to our divorce, some, gosh, 30 years later. I guess it's a sort of natural chemistry when you mix a Gemini and a Taurus. And yes, looking at it that way, it was a spiritual development, or at least a realization, for us both. Thinking more on it, I probably wouldn't have viewed the whole experience as being a waste of time and money had it not had such a negative effect on our relationship. Though it's still pretty funky to me that we paid to provide slave labor to their "compound", but that wasn't much of a factor to me until the blow up. I did receive a nice buzz from the guru and his lecture that evening on the monkey mind, though the facade of all his spiritually 'dressed' western devotees was, quite frankly, a turn off. On the other hand, that part didn't bother my wife. She fit into that image quite well. So in that respect, I was as turned off by her demeanor as she was by mine, lol.

:bows:

 

[Annamaria]

http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/hb/hhb-20.shtml

 

[sooo]

http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/hb/hhb-20.shtml

This seems completely redundant. If one is to ascend above the crown, one must destroy or transcend all notions of deity and the divine. In Hinduism, the final action is to behead Shakti, who is the Mother energy of Tantra Yoga and of all Gods and Goddesses, because Shakti is inseparable from the one who beholds her, therefore to fully become the energy, one ultimately must destroy the separate image or Goddess of the energy. The entire chakra system no longer exists at this point, only energy, which you are. This is something that we may grasp, but only from the intellect (a relatively low chakra). To re-cognize comes after any concept of self, of me and thou.

 

[iams girl]

It would be my wish that everyone would share their personal beliefs based on their life experience and acquired knowledge during their lifetime. I don't understand why it requires bravery to be open and candid about such things, nor can I think of anything more interesting to share with others within a community. Why is their experience with spiritual ideas and personal beliefs so difficult to share?

Imo, sooo, it is difficult to share cross-religious personal beliefs based on life experience and acquired knowledge because others can be quick to judge, ridicule, criticize, hate, and/or belittle to name a few things. Even an ordinary thread here can get all twisted in a matter of a couple of posts considering all the personalities and their ways of looking at things. I think it actually does take a lot bravery to be open and candid. A discussion about sensitivity and a safe place to share might be a helpful way to make it easier to consider contributing a few things. It could be interesting if done respectfully, maybe an opportunity of a lifetime to learn from others' experiences here.

 

[sooo]

I understand what you're saying, iams girl. I assume ahead of posting such personal stories and experiences that there will be critics and scoffers, I've just learned to accept that, and post them anyway. I don't know if that's courage or indifference, or perhaps they wind up being the same.

Personally, my story was told to Annamaria, who is the one who politely and respectfully asked me to expand on my brief and more general comment. I summed the story up with the distinction between knowing something and believing something, and tried to be clear that this was only my belief, and that I don't know anything about the facts of such things, nor do I "believe" anyone can or does. So in that sense I have no dog in this race, which means anyone can say whatever they want to in response, because from my perspective, they don't know either.

To some I must seem self-indulgent to speak so freely of the personal stories I share, as though it's all about me. But that's always been what I felt has been missing from this forum, and the reason is that people are afraid to share their own personal stories, for just such reasons as you've sighted, which I feel is very sad, as it makes the forum overly academic and impersonal, and that comes primarily from fear of being criticized by someone not so free to expose themselves. I view that as not my problem though, so it's my indifference that is behind my candor. I don't really care how others judge me; I'm not here to please anyone or attain anyone's approval. I don't understand why anyone would be, and I wish they wouldn't be. But human nature being what it is, people are self-conscious and want to be liked. For some reason, many believe they won't be as liked if people knew more about their life experiences and personal beliefs.

Thank you for your thoughts. :bows:

 

[moss elk]

Back to the spiritual / character development thingy...

One and the same no?

 

[anemos]

I think it actually does take a lot bravery to be open and candid. A discussion about sensitivity and a safe place to share might be a helpful way to make it easier to consider contributing a few things. It could be interesting if done respectfully, maybe an opportunity of a lifetime to learn from others' experiences here.

I don't fully agree with the underlined. Its partly true, however , imo, its the nature of those experiences that its no easy to communicate them. To me, the experience I've shared was - without exaggerating- a mystical one. Can anyone draw that impression from the description ? I think some things are beyond words.

I think that Yi is closely related to that path. It has wisdom, not the Wisdom word loaded - overloaded- with meanings, but simple profound wisdom. At least this is how I see it. A database of accumulate experiences and a kind of operant conditioning

 

[sooo]

Back to the spiritual / character development thingy...

One and the same no?

What sayest thou?

 

[anemos]

A question to all:

I'm I the only one that keeps seeing h22 jumping out ?
( 22 with not the "superficial" connotation)

 

[sooo]

A question to all:

I'm I the only one that keeps seeing h22 jumping out ?
( 22 with not the "superficial" connotation)

Maybe, though I hadn't associated it with 22 at the time. Actually it was after reading your last post, and thinking that I admire how you and some others are bold in expressing yourself in a language that isn't your native tongue, especially the more difficult to express thoughts, beliefs and what have you. Then I thought more about those who have life stories and beliefs but are uncertain or lack confidence in their ability to express them to their own satisfaction.

It's like the poetry thread, when blue_angel was saying how she would like to write poetry, but no words come to her. Yet once she began writing, all these beautiful words flowed from her, which I think surprised her more than it did any others. Confidence - that the right words will just be there once she starts writing. Those without writing experience may have a lot to say, to contribute, but feel intimidated, particularly if writing in a language which is not their first language, such as yourself, Maria. So I applaud your guts, all the more-so because American English is the only language I know, and I sometimes butcher that pretty badly due to my lack of formal education.

So, in that sense, yes, 22 has been on my mind regarding expressing ones thoughts and beliefs about spiritual things, or about anything for that matter. I think 22.6 is the right attitude and antidote for the lack of confidence, which some may experience, and 21 too, in the sense of bite through that obstacle and just say it! Don't worry how pretty or impressive it looks or sounds. It's the substance that matters. And the more you do it, the more refined and natural it becomes. The more you tap into your thoughts and beliefs, the more you discover within yourself. Potentials become realized when second guessing leaves and self-confidence increases.