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Trump or Clinton?

canislulu

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I can understand why Europe would be relieved with a Clinton win. Trump hardly seems like presidential material. But it is becoming increasingly clear that the election has been rigged in Clinton's favor and people who are more afraid of Trump can rest assured in Clinton's win for this reason. I only hope Clinton supporters are correct that she is the lesser evil. I fear it isn't true but I am happy to be wrong.

I spoke to a friend this weekend who told me of her experience in trying to vote in the democratic primary which is a "closed" primary in our state which means that people can only vote in the primary of the party of their registration. My friend has always been a registered democrat and has never changed her registration. When she showed up at the polls to vote for Bernie Sanders she was told that she could not vote in the democratic primary because she was registered republican. So somehow someone other than herself had changed her registration without her consent shutting her out of voting in the primary and there was nothing she could do about it. In our state Clinton won the primary by having only 31 more votes than Bernie Sanders.

I asked the I Ching, "What do we need to know about evidence that the election is rigged?" and I received the answer 35.4.6 > 2

I am not trusting my ability to interpret this answer because I have such a strong belief about it. I would appreciate any thought others may have on this reading. What stands out for me in the reading is that the yin operator (the hexagram that results when the two changing lines are rendered as yin lines and the unchanging lines are rendered as yang lines) is Hexagram 5. It is interesting to me that this is the hexagram that was cast when asking about a third party win. My feeling about it is that this election is rigged and that the world will have to wait for the imho much needed third party win. (Still hoping for a miracle anyway.....jm)
 

canislulu

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Diamanda, your description of hexagram 61 as "Protection, something hidden" sounds more like hexagram 4. To me, hexagram 61 is about knowing the truth, deliberating over what needs to be done and delaying execution.

Steve, the reason that I do not think a third party vote is a wasted vote is that when a third party is finally able to get 5 % of the vote then they will get public funding in the next election which puts them on a more level playing field with the corporate controlled, billionaire parties who have more access to corporate media. Also, in order to get on the ballot third parties have to accomplish different things in different states. In my state, the third party has to obtain 5000 signatures on a ballot access petition. We were able to obtain 11000 signatures this year. In our state, if we get 2% of the vote this year then the Green party will get automatic ballot access in 4 years. (I believe most states require 5% of the vote for automatic ballot access.) I live in a "red" state which is more likely to vote for the republican candidate. It is likely that Clinton will lose in my state, making a vote for her likely a loosing vote because of the winner take all rule where whichever candidate wins in a state, no matter how narrow the win margin, that candidate gets all of the electoral college votes for that state towards the required 270 electoral college votes needed for the win. I think a vote for Clinton where I live is a wasted vote because Trump is most likely to win here. A vote for the Green party will help to get the 2% needed for automatic ballot access for the Green party in 4 years and hence is not a wasted vote.
 

diamanda

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Diamanda, your description of hexagram 61 as "Protection, something hidden" sounds more like hexagram 4. To me, hexagram 61 is about knowing the truth, deliberating over what needs to be done and delaying execution.
The characters for 61 are 中 (something inside an enclosure) and 孚 (claws protecting offspring).
The character for 4 is 蒙 (parasitic plants which cover and obscure something).
This is where I get the idea of protection in 61.

What do we need to know about evidence that the election is rigged? 35.4.6 > 2
Progress like a rodent (35.4) and also aggressive progress with horns (35.6).
Just because of 35.4 I'd say for sure there are dirty tricks in use.
Not sure if the public will get to see the evidence you're asking about, though.
 

canislulu

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Thank you, Diamanda, you have increased my understanding of Hexagram 61.
 

mholden1969

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18: you said the answer you got for "Give me a picture of the new president of USA" is hex. 18.
I agree that the I Ching also speaks in images, not only in words.
Very soon we will all know the outcome of this election and we can re-think the casts then and learn.
I think this says it perfectly, considering everything going on now.
 

mholden1969

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Another reply to Diamanda:

42.1.2.3.5-18
Possible it's circumnavigating the question and showing the "increasing corruption" of the Clintons?
It may not be saying one way or another.

Also, a possibility for that first Bernie reading was that he would not win the presidential nomination (41) and this would lead to corruption in the following months (18)- seems like that happened!
 

diamanda

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42.1.2.3.5-18
Possible it's circumnavigating the question and showing the "increasing corruption" of the Clintons?
It may not be saying one way or another.

Also, a possibility for that first Bernie reading was that he would not win the presidential nomination (41) and this would lead to corruption in the following months (18)- seems like that happened!
Yes for sure there's tons of corruption connected with these elections.
My thoughts on the readings involving 18:

Will Bernie be our next President: 41.1.3 > 18
Agree with you here, 41.1 and 41.3 show his loss. 18 perhaps shows his own corruption... all of a sudden he forgot everything he was formerly saying and started supporting HC instead. Doesn't sound a very decent thing to do. At least he got uncovered before getting elected. Shame, I thought he was a decent guy.

Is Clinton going to walk into the White House as a President? 50.3 > 18
The rich food in the cauldron is not recognised/eaten, hence it rots. Not sure exactly what this means, but it doesn't sound like a victorious answer.

Give me a picture of the new president of USA - 18 unchanging
Sadly this is quite disheartening. No matter who will be president, corruption/poison/madness will prevail. Or is this actually showing that HC WILL become president via dirty tricks?? She gets a few 18s, and the new president will be "18". So, who knows, perhaps they'll manage to make her president anyway.

What are the chances Clinton can still win the elections? 42.1.2.3.5 > 18
Great works, luck and riches, unfortunate event and a kind heart - lead to corruption. I'm quite puzzled by line 42.5. Who has a kind heart in this whole business...??
 

canislulu

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Can Hexagram 18 mean "Corruption" but also "Remedying". Sometimes I think it means a condition where there is need to renovate the corruption. Could it mean that the new president will be one to remedy the existing corruption or would Yi have answered with a different hexagram to say that?
 

diamanda

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Very interesting question. I've been wondering about that part of 18 for a long time. I personally never witnessed it to play out as remedying corruption.

The core meaning of 18 is poison and decay, long-standing corruption. Both candidates have been corrupted for a very long time now, so realistically we cannot expect any of them to "remedy the existing corruption" - they belong to it, are part of it. If a new president was determined to remedy corruption, I would expect to see hexagram 43 or 21. I believe we cannot expect such a thing from any US president, as they are by definition part and parcel of a whole massive and extremely rich/powerful system.

A very interesting commentary on 18:

Although the text doesn’t explicitly state a successful outcome, it provides great and smooth progress and encourages people to see it through, since after the end of the old there will definitely be a new beginning; this is the way of Nature.
Hexagram Gu doesn’t possess the virtue of persistence, signifying that preservation is not a subject in the world of Gu and one must remove all that is not righteous.
(...)
In addition to the long-standing bad habit or practice, Gu also refers to corruption or illness existing over a long period of time, or a conspiracy long-bred in darkness.
from Tuck Chang's pagehttp://www.iching123.com/18_text.htm
 
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moss elk

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Very interesting question. I've been wondering about that part of 18 for a long time. I personally never witnessed it to play out as remedying corruption.
I have.
Don't rule it out.
Many negative things could be truthfully said about one of my grandfathers.
One of them was that he would drink alcohol like a fish for several days straight.
Once I was in a short relationship that was displeasing. I was asking yi about it and 18's kept coming up. After a while I realized that she and I had been spending time at a pub,
but otherwise, we didn't really have a connection.
When I sobered up, and clear mindedness returned, I stopped wasting my time with a wrong person.
The advice was to change or undue the bad habits of the ancestor.
To stir up the people and fortify (improve) character.
And amusingly: Detoxify ;)
 

diamanda

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Yes, I've seen 18 refer to alcohol situations too!
However, the word "remedying" still sounds wrong.

In your example, you didn't stay in the corrupted situation and corrected/remedied it.
You didn't apply any improving measures so as to make it all better after effort.
You totally removed yourself from it, you totally removed it from your life.
I can see 18 as abandoning corruption, but not as correcting/remedying the corrupted elements.
 

svenrus

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The tag for hex. 18 in the "Shanghai museum manuscript" * is Parasite

Richard Rutt ** got the tag Mildew

According to E.L. Shaughnessy, the Mawangdui manuscript *** got the tag Branch

and, finally John Minford **** got the tag Blight on this 18th hexagram

All of those tags being a scaring picture of the new president of the USA. But the picture itself I find in the lower or coming trigram the oldest daughter and the upper or going trigram, the youngest son I see as Obama leaving. But this I know is an uncertain way to see it.

* Unearthing the Changes, Edward L. Shaughnessy, Columbia University Press, N.Y. 2014
** Zhouyi the book of Changes, Richard Rutt, Routledge, N.Y. 1996
*** I Ching the classic of Changes, E.L. Shaughnessy, Ballantine books, N.Y. 1996 (in a note on this tag, it's also translated Disorder according to the received text.
**** I Ching, John Minford, Viking/Penguin group, N.Y. 2014,
 

casstone

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I asked: Will Trump win the elections? and got 12.5 > 35
Looks quite auspicious for him :eek:

I then asked: How will the elections go/Who will win? and got 17.1.5.6 > 35

Seems to me that odds are Trump will be the next president!
 
B

butterfly spider

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48.23 to 8 unexpected result

I did a casting for Brexit and the referendum in Britain - and got 48.23 to 8 As I felt that we would be remaining - I took the reading to be just that - seeking union. My interpretation was incorrect.

My son has just said that it is a very bleak prospect if Trump wins, and I decided to cast again - asking Trump as President, not a question, more a state of fact. I got 48 to 8 again. Now, given what happened in Brexit and the reading, I would take it as meaning that Trump will indeed win - although I am finding it extremely hard to believe this will happen.



It talks about leadership, strength and binding people together, which, in brief, gives me an over riding feeling that Trump will actually win.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
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mholden1969

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With the general election happening tomorrow, I am posting my final "who will be president" question.

"Is Hillary going to be our next President?"

I received 64.1.2.6-51. I take this to mean,
"The shock has not arrived, yet."

I wonder if this is saying that she will not be President, or if she is elected President, she will be impeached or incarcerated, thus removed from Presidency (51), but it won't happen immediately (64).
 

Grandma

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As far as 18 referring to alcohol and Clinton/ trump- I'm hearing lots of rumors that Clinton has a drinking problem.
As for trump he doesn't drink or do drugs- his eldest brother died from alcoholism many years ago.
 

Grandma

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64-51
"The shock has not arrived yet"
Electoral college maps in many mainstream news outlets still calling for Clinton victory. These don't look accurate to my understanding . ( FYI- us presidential election is 50 state elections weighted by population to reach 270 "points". )
I think the shock could be cognitive dissonance from people who put their belief in msm reporting the truth. And that's a lot of people, still.
off the beaten track trump projected winner- but again us has seen many rigged elections however they might not be able to rig a landslide.
I got a 49 for trump recently , I thought that was good for him.
I think the 4's people were getting early on mean that people hadn't made up their minds yet and also people do have to actually vote for any one to win. So those were too early to call it cause the event (election) has to actually take place.
 
M

mirian

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gives me an over riding feeling that Trump will actually win
Hi butterfly spider,

I have been experimenting with asking questions from different angles, changing format at every reading, a bit of practice and exercise really. I have included the American elections in my experiment and Trump comes as the winner.

I am baffled at the moment, but we will see in few hours.
 

yasmin

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Thank you Diamanda for pulling together that table!
I will add my own casts to the mix. They also give Trump winner and taking office, although possibly after a bitterly contested tie finish.

Here are my castings for reference, in case anyone is interested:

November 28th, after FBI letter: outlook for Hilary to become president? 25.3> 13. Innocent, undeserved misfortune, what was rightfully hers was stolen by a passerby (Comey or Trump).

November 2nd, she seemed to be rallying a bit: what about Hilary's chances of becoming president now? 62.3>16. Blindsided. This is one of the worst lines in the IC in my experience. It could be interpreted as advice (beware not to get blindsided) or as negative outcome for her. Confirms the previous reading.

November 8th, Election Day:

- outlook for Hilary to win? 2.6 too evenly matched, clash of titans, both will bleed. Misfortune. This looks like a tie-finish, which will be hotly contested and will damage both candidates as well as possibly, people's trust in the process. Given that I was asking about Hilary, this does not bode well for her.

- outlook for Trump to win? 26.1.4.6> 32. Note: Someone else also cast a similar 26.1.2. 6>15. This suggests to me a victory but ONLY IF he can restrain himself from alienating voters. However, 32 also means "as it has been, so it continues"...

And finally, taking Diamanda's advice about differentiating between winning and taking office, I specifically asked if either would take office:

Will Hilary take office? 20.1.4> 25. Hmmm. Under contemplation, 20.4 suggests the matter remains to be determined 25 suggests that anything can happen. This is hardly a clear victory, but not as bad as previous castings, actually.

Will Trump take office? 48.1.5>11. Although at first nobody would touch him(1), there seems to be a wellspring of people in the community who are willing to drink his words (5). With a context of 11, peace, harmony, i would say that the process may well deliver him to the White House.

I have not once drawn a negative for Trump. There. That was my addition to the brew :)
 
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yasmin

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Mholden- regarding 64.1.2.6>51 I would take it as a roller coaster ride which eventually ends well.
64: unfinished business, she needs to stay on course, and guard against celebrating her victory too heartily (line 6)
in the context of 51, a series of shocks - she has already had several, including the last FBI letter a few days from the ballot! And she may or may not have more shocks in store. But with 51, the initial fear is eventually replaced with relief and laughter.
So overall, not such a bad reading for her!
 

mulberry

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I must go to bed, I can't keep staring bewildered at various news websites refreshing the map and tallies. With the outcome still unclear, I asked Yi, "What are Hillary's chances to win this tonight?" 3.6 -> 42. Few lines are worse than 3.6. I know it's a wash now, or if not a wash, a nasty fight to come.

I've never understood how 42 relates, really, to 3.6. Still don't.

Like Yasmin, none of my Clinton readings over the past year have been positive, while most of the ones for him were. Strange times.
 
N

nAstWr

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I am so nervous about the results so I asked as well.
Will Trump be the winner?
64,6 》40
I have no doubts anymore. Unfortunately. :(

"Too much wine at the victory feast can remove all cause for celebration.
Be a good winner."
 

svenrus

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The new president will very soon enter the stage. Who, is irrelevant in this forum I guess. What is relevant is to analyze the readings and find where in those the true answere were hidden, so to speak. Personally, I've read wrong - I pointed out Clinton - but now is the time to reread my reading to see where in this hexagram the answer were to be found.
 
M

mirian

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I have been experimenting with asking questions from different angles, changing format at every reading, a bit of practice and exercise really. I have included the American elections in my experiment and Trump comes as the winner.
Confirming the readings of several people on this subject, on various threads, Trump has won.
 
B

butterfly spider

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I was thinking how the 48.23 to 8 reading worked itself out on the Brexit vote - when I was sure it meant that Britain would remain in the EU, but the vote went the other way. I was wondering in the night how this same casting for the US election would play out. There were indeed similarities.

This thread will be a very useful tool I think for looking at answers in the future.
Thank you - and as Svenrus has quite rightly said, this is not about who has won, or political bias, it is to do with seeing how readings panned out. It will also be interesting interpreting the readings over the coming months.
 
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yasmin

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Well, the I Ching predicted Brexit and Trump, against all odds. In conclusion: It's a better political forecasting tool than analysts and polls.
 
B

butterfly spider

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If Clarity wants to set up a political forecasting business - I would be happy to be on the team..
I have absolutely no idea how much money was spent on analysis and forecasting in the US election - possibly billions of dollars - which might come in quite handy, even if it was shared amongst Clarity members......:rofl:
 

hilary

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Just to add to the records, I cast about this on Sunday.

Hillary's prospects: 42 unchanging.
Trump's: 61.2 to 42.

Didn't post these before because I was too busy trying to forget them. As Svenrus says, we can learn things about readings. (And as Yasmin says, the Yi's better at this than the pollsters, not that that sets the bar particularly high...) Let's get some of this into WikiWing.
 

Tim K

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And here is my 2 cents:

Cast late at night 7 Nov 2016.
Trump wins? 11.5 → 5
Richmond: A king gives his daughter in marriage and thereby gains good fortune.

Clinton wins? 25
Richmond:
Innocent integrity. Great success.
Continuing (in the tao) brings reward.
Action without the best (innocent) motives brings misfortune.
Having goals is not favourable.


p.s. previous cast done on 22 Jul 2016
Trump?
43.6 → 1
,
Richmond: No warning. Misfortune.
47.4 → 29,
Richmond: A slow arrival, exhausted in a golden carriage.
Some humiliation but he arrives.


Clinton?
46.5 → 48
,
Richmond: Continuance in the way brings good fortune. The ascent is by steps.
20.2 → 59,
Richmond: Looking through a crack of the door is of advantage to the woman.
 
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Liselle

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Hillary's prospects: 42 unchanging.
Trump's: 61.2 to 42.
I asked questions about each candidate yesterday and also got 42 unchanging about Hillary. (37.1.2 > 57 about Trump.) However, I thought it meant there was no way she'd lose. After all, I got 42uc once about a frightening personal matter, the reading helped me have the confidence to deal with it effectively, and it ended up just fine for me - as (our :)) Hilary's commentary says, "What would you do if you knew you were blessed?" No idea what unchanging readings are doing, with those two results for the same cast...
 

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