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Trump or Clinton?

hilary

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I wonder about the personal aspect of these readings - if the answers are not only about what happens but also about how the particular individual asking the question should see it. Maybe I could take 42uc as personal reassurance - that the things I felt Hillary's candidacy represented are still on the increase.

Also - might unchanging for a political candidate mean 'not connecting with the electorate'? An abstract idea, adrift? Er... just looked at Butterfly's collation of previous readings, though, and both candidates had some uc readings. There have been three separate unchanging 25s for Clinton.

Butterfly Spider, would it be OK for me to edit your post and add the remaining readings to the list?
 

Liselle

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I suppose it might also be possible to see the 42 unchangings as somehow a blessing for Clinton personally, even though that's not how we meant our questions? (I mean, I don't understand why anyone would want to hold public office, so there's that fairly ridiculous bias...)

Problem is, when there are several mutually-exclusive ways to interpret a reading, we have no idea what it means, while nonetheless knowing that it indeed means something.
 

Trojina

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I was thinking how the 48.23 to 8 reading worked itself out on the Brexit vote - when I was sure it meant that Britain would remain in the EU, but the vote went the other way. I was wondering in the night how this same casting for the US election would play out. There were indeed similarities.
But Brexit hasn't actually happened yet and it seems to me increasingly unlikely that it will. I say that just from what I pick up from the media rather than any expertise in the matter. So Yi answered a bigger question for you perhaps....like well it appears that Brexit won except it hasn't really and all those uncertainties

This thread will be a very useful tool I think for looking at answers in the future.
Thank you - and as Svenrus has quite rightly said, this is not about who has won, or political bias, it is to do with seeing how readings panned out. It will also be interesting interpreting the readings over the coming months.
I agree neither with Svrenus or you here really. I do appreciate Diamanda making the table of readings here because if there are patterns to be seen we will see them much clearer this way...but my personal view remains Yi's answers are not separate from the questioner, the questioner's position will be in there somewhere. There is no such thing IMO as a purely objective factual answer with no connection to the questioner at all. If Yi did that it would be a machine with no values or responsiveness and then I would have no use for it at all and would discard it as having no connection to me at all. I do not think that political questions are answered with no concern or awareness of the implications of what the winning of each candidate would actually mean. Trump winning is a disaster. To imagine we can look at readings as if they had no connection to the wider meanings of him winning to me just makes no sense.

Many people have asked the same questions over and over again so who's answers are we going to take as the meaningful ones ? Well with the help of Diamanda's table at least themes can be seen hopefully. Still to be honest I am afraid I personally see all of these answers as random white noise really. Yi has to give some answer when we ask such questions so what does it do when we keep on asking about an outer situation in the world that

1. we can have no impact on yet
2. we have an existing opinion on or stance towards
3. where we expect some 'objective' answer despite that

hilary


I wonder about the personal aspect of these readings - if the answers are not only about what happens but also about how the particular individual asking the question should see it. Maybe I could take 42uc as personal reassurance - that the things I felt Hillary's candidacy represented are still on the increase.
Maybe, I guess you'll never know. Why did you ask the question ? There were 2 candidates who could win. If you just wanted to know which you could have tossed a coin.

Also - might unchanging for a political candidate mean 'not connecting with the electorate'? An abstract idea, adrift? Er... just looked at Butterfly's collation of previous readings, though, and both candidates had some uc readings. There have been three separate unchanging 25s for Clinton.
Perhaps the 25s were for the nature of exercise you were all taking part in collectively here ? Who knows.


lisa


I suppose it might also be possible to see the 42 unchangings as somehow a blessing for Clinton personally, even though that's not how we meant our questions? (I mean, I don't understand why anyone would want to hold public office, so there's that fairly ridiculous bias...)

Problem is, when there are several mutually-exclusive ways to interpret a reading, we have no idea what it means, while nonetheless knowing that it indeed means something.
Quite. If you have a subjective position you are more likely to understand the answer. If a bunchof people all think their answer is going to predict the future of the world ....well how long is it before Yi comments on their endeavour ?

That's my honest opinion and I know it won't be popular. But I never wished to get in the way of people asking these things, I don't object to it, I just don't believe in it at all I think it is okay to express my POV here (?) so before anyone attacks me for honestly giving my view maybe rather than attack you could just ask me to remove this post or report it to save any unnecessary hostility. I wanted to give my view here because I see people agonising over what to think and so on and inventing all kinds of theories from the readings and it's looking really random to me or could as easily be a comment on the exercise of asking the question
 

steve

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Hi all

Looking back my personal feelings were effecting my readings, I was usally asking about clinton, this was when Sanders was still in the race, when it got down to the two candidates and I asked about Trump winning was only time I really got a clear reading and that was toward the end of the election.

I even had a couple of readings where the Yi was saying I am asking questions that dont concern me. I think now Trump being in office does concern me as I am now doing business in the US and I think there will be an advantage in him being in.

All in all it seemed the Yi for me when I was asking questions about someone I dont like I was getting unclear answers. Its hard to explain exactly what I mean, but it was like until I asked a question that directly concerned me the Yi seemed to not give me a clear answer.

Thats my take on this crazy ride,

Steve
 

yasmin

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Butterfly, the political forecasting business is a brilliant idea, lol! Count me in!
Hilary, I agree with the idea that the readings are personal. Both for interpreting external events and for guiding the readers attitude. After all, we each arrived at the same conclusion (Trump winning) through different castings, which meant something to us individually. For me the 62.3 "blindsided"cast for Hilary a few days ago was the deal breaker, because I experience it as the most vicious line in the I Ching. When I have had it in the past, the misfortune came as a total shock and was quite un-preventable. But perhaps other casters would have that reaction of absolute certainty with a different hex and line?
 

Granma

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I asked these last night around 7pm est ( 5 hours behind uk? I think) when it was unsure how the election would go.
Instead of asking who would win (again)
I figured one of them had to make concession speech, and I also figured it wouldn't happen till after midnight since California polls don't close till 11 pm est so inproper to concede before that. and even one in Alaska wasn't going to close till 1am est., so
I thought this close to the finish line I would get a better answer to this kind of question.
Will Clinton make concession speech sometime on November 9
40 unc
Same question for trump
19 unc
I thought it looked like Clinton should concede but wasn't really sure.
So, well who will be making a victory speech?
Will trump make victory speech on November 9
28-5
Well I thought that meant he would make a magnanimous speech ( line 1) which he did, he said nice things about Clinton.
Would Clinton be giving victory speech on November 9?
59.2.4.5-35
Line 4 made me think trump would win. I used Sam reifler interpretation where he says "you must temporarily suspend your involvement with friends and associates" whenever I get that line even with other seemingly more positive lines it seems to prevail. . But the 35 seemed auspicious for her so still wasn't sure.
And look how it turned out- she did not make public concession speech! But she did call and concede. I think that's the 40- it was proper thing to concede and not fight the election ( like podesta intimated). What a nightmare!
I don't how things go in other countries but the protocol here is that the loser calls winner and concedes election and congratulates them. Then loser publicly gives concession speech, and then the winner gives their public victory speech.
 

juaneros

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Cool thread, enjoyed seeing different perspectives. I asked a couple of weeks ago- the 15th of Oct. Would enjoy sharing.

Nov 8th 2016-Hillary-Clinton-lose/win-Presidential Candidate-Elections. Please comment:

29.4>47

Nov 8th 2016-Trump-Donald-lose/win-Presidential Candidate-Elections. Please comment:

41.5>61

I wrote in my notes-- Trump wins the Elections by a land slide. Was being hopeful for sure :blush:

Btw I used the Plum Blossom Numerology for anyone interested in how I casted
 
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butterfly spider

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:bows::eek:uch:Casting for political outcomes would not have been something I would have done had a thread not have started on here. I thought it was an interesting debate

I do however think that Trojina has a point - and such political questions are not the best use of the I Ching. However these are strange times - and despite my hoping for divine intervention my castings along with others did appear to favour Trump winning

If we can use the interpretations for future castings this is a good thing but at the end of the day I Ching is a personal journey to guide us as individuals I think.

It has been an interesting thread ....
 
M

mirian

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Hi butterfly spider,

Thanks for sharing your views. My relationship with the Yi seems to be going against the trend here, as I feel increasingly inclined to use the Yi for public affairs and subjects that affect people and nations in general (as well as using the Yi for my own personal issues). And I don't mean predicting elections only, this is only a small part of it, but exploring, understanding and looking into countries and populations, and what to expect from their current affairs and development.

Anyway, interesting thread, yes. :bows:
 

yasmin

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I believe the yi is a tool for us to use individually - everyone is free to use in whatever way works for them:)

But I believe that the Iching was traditionally used for political purposes in ancient China. A lot of the hexes and lines are purely political. Consider these, off the top of my head:
7- the army. All about the importance of capable leadership in a war
11.6 - what to do when the fortifications of the city have crumbled, do not use the army
13 - fellowship in the clan, look at the lines
16 - Setting a strategy, and getting the troops marching
20. 4 - Contemplating how best to serve the ruler
23- how the ruler can get overthrown by rising rabble or disloyalty
33- retreating from war to live to fight another day
34- the management of power
35- how the ruler rewards his faithful vassals
43- about how to speak out at the Court when there is danger
48- about the community, moving the capital, but making sure that water remains accessible
49- about how to manage a revolution!
55- about the cycles of leadership, and the proper attitude of the enlightened ruler
59.5- the King comes up with an idea to resolve an impasse, and opens his stores to the people
Etc...
On this site we spend a lot of time trying to interpret castings to help us make sense of out personal problems. But how often are we perplexed by hexagrams which are a difficult fit to the question? For example, hex 7 for love relationships. We have developed our individual short hand for these situations (for example, for me 7 is focused discipline). But look at the original lines: they were about the affairs of State! And my guess (I would like a historians view on this) is that Iching was in fact used by wise men to advise the rulers on strategic decisions, whether to go to wat, how to manage the kingdom, when to marry off their daughter in an alliance etc...
While I use the Yi mainly for my personal questions, and as a guide to reflect on my own journey, I am also involved in politics and find it very valuable in complex, unpredictable situations such as the times we live in.
I take Trojina's point about the value of casting on something over which we are largely powerless. I suppose purely predicting outcomes is a way of getting external validation for our interpretations. But it can also be used more broadly. Castings actually inform how I read situations, and how I respond. (Internal votes on complex policy decisions, when to step back from debate, when to be diplomatic or to push my point etc...). I just wanted to share- it can also be a valuable resource for political purposes :)
 
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steve

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i agree , when the question directly effects you, biased will give you muddled readings.
Sit on the fence or stay in your mountain home, if you can?
Incredible exercise ,

Steve
 

diamanda

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I find this topic fascinating and I'm going through all the readings again. I'm adding a summary of subsequent readings - not a very detailed one this time, but helpful to myself and hopefully to others too.

November 8th, Election Day: outlook for Hilary to win?2.6 > 23
outlook for Trump to win?26.1.4.6 > 32
Will Hilary take office?20.1.4 > 25
Will Trump take office?48.1.5 > 11
What are Hillary's chances to win this tonight?3.6 > 42
Will Trump be the winner?64.6 > 40
Hillary's prospects42 unchanging
Trump's (prospects)61.2 > 42
Cast late at night 7 Nov 2016. Trump wins?11.5 > 5
Clinton wins?25 unchanging
I asked questions about each candidate yesterday and also got 42 unchanging about Hillary42 unchanging
37.1.2 > 57 about Trump37.1.2 > 57
Will Clinton make concession speech sometime on November 940 unchanging
Same question for trump19 unchanging
Will trump make victory speech on November 928.1.4.6 > 5
Would Clinton be giving victory speech on November 959.2.4.5 > 35
Nov 8th 2016-Hillary-Clinton-lose/win-Presidential Candidate-Elections. Please comment29.4 > 47
Nov 8th 2016-Trump-Donald-lose/win-Presidential Candidate-Elections. Please comment41.5 > 61



































I'll add my thoughts on them later (about 60 readings in total is not a small amount!).
 

diamanda

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I've already written my view on 18 and resulting 18 (corruption, abandoning corruption), so here are a few more details that stand out for me. Also: I've counted the questions which were about Clinton/Trump only. They're 50 questions in total, 25 about HC, and 25 about DT.

About 51 - primary, unchanging, changing

51 had also turned up in other political threads, and imo it clearly shows that what we're being fed by the media will not happen - hence the result is going to be generally shocking. I read various online newspapers the day after the election, and the word 'shock' was in all of them.

Will Hillary be president? 55.3 > 51
Shading because of many banners. Obviously a reference to the countless wilileaks emails. Breaks right arm - well, John Podesta was her 'right arm', and there was shock because of the whole thing. And yet, 'no blame', so far she's got away with it.

Will DT be the next president of the US? 51 unchanging
Will Trump be president? 51.1.5 > 45

51 unchanging was obviously a shocking yes. I've always seen 51.1 as a pleasant surprise. Then we've got the frantic activity and multiple shocks of 51.5, and then the congregation of 45. As a footnote, I do wonder if there are more shocks in store (as described in 51.5) - after all, he's not fully president yet.


25 and 41/42

I asked today if Clinton is going to win 25 unchanging
Will HC be the next president of the US? 25 unchanging
Will Hilary take office? 20.1.4 > 25
Clinton wins? 25 unchanging

4 questions (out of a total of 25 questions) involve hexagram 25, and three of them unchanging. I have no doubt that this is a case of "If someone is not as he should be, He has misfortune". Ok so she hasn't been prosecuted, the people however became increasingly aware of her dirt.

Will Hilary win this election 41 unchanging
What are Hillary's chances to win this tonight? 3.6 > 42
Hillary's prospects 42 unchanging
I asked questions about each candidate yesterday and also got 42 unchanging about Hillary 42 unchanging

This looks quite tricky. 41 shows loss. And 3.6, as I believe many of us will know, is an excruciatingly painful line. But how about the two unchanging 42s? The third question asks about her prospects, and the fourth question doesn't specify the exact question. 42 means increase, profit. So it sounds like she will profit somehow, even though, as the majority of the readings indicated, she lost the elections. I believe it remains to be seen how exactly she will profit from losing. Perhaps she will do like Tony Blair does nowadays, striking hugely lucrative deals with various shady figures. Perhaps it will benefit her to be away from the limelight because she won't be investigated any further. Or who knows how else.


An election victory for Trump - but what about afterwards?

I still think that some of the Trump readings look suspicious. Ok he's won, we know that, and many of the readings predicted that, and many of us saw that coming. But what about these readings..?

Trump's electoral prospects 3 unchanging - right now, most news titles speak of pre-presidency chaos.
Will Trump win the election 56.5 > 33 - spot on, hits the target... but then retreats..?
Is Trump going to be the next President 55.1 > 62 - for "ten days" only..?
Trump's (prospects) 61.2 > 42 - 61.2 sounds so great, but, here's another resulting 42, which hasn't proved good for HC so far. Sharing profits with his 'young'? Hmm he should beware too much 42, in case he ends up as a 25 case as well.

I read on an astrology blog that Trump has got a nasty transit coming up. Saturn will oppose his natal sun, from mid January (it didn't mention for how long). When I had this transit it was pure hell, in pretty much every domain of my life imaginable. In conclusion, I have some reservations about this whole presidency business, and I'm not convinced that the shocks and drama are over yet.
 

peterg

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Generally a shocking result, but in particular 51 also suggests one who wears the costume of the eldest son and who can be relied on, amid the startling events, not to drop the ladle or spill the sacrificial wine. He is not so vulnerable to the tactics of the smear campaign and sexual and financial McCarthyism.
45 also has the potential for group shock, like a damburst and all hell suddenly breaking loose.
 

Liselle

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Several days after the election, someone said to me (this person voted for Trump), that in his opinion what Hillary wanted was the "personal satisfaction of being the first woman president," and that she wouldn't really do anything if elected - her desired accomplishment was just to be elected.

Not sure how I feel about that, on several counts, one of which is that most people running for office probably have outsized egos...also, campaigning is a hard job, being president is a hard job, and there are easier ways to spend your late 60s and 70s...and those things apply to both candidates...(also, it's something I'd heard about Trump, too, people questioning whether he'd actually want the job if he got it, or if being president was just another trophy for him).

But - this is a very simple and somewhat obvious point of view I'd never considered. I'd always looked at the "first woman president" thing as just a plain fact of the situation, and something Hillary would of course be proud of, but otherwise I thought of her as a normal candidate running for the normal reasons (whatever those might be; I really don't follow politics). But I wonder how much of the electorate thought as my acquaintance did, that this was her entire motivation. And I wonder if that's reflected in any of these readings, in any way, pro or con or as an explanation for anything?
 
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