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What does it mean to see the Great Man and to Cross the Water

hmesker

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As to this 'great person,' or what 'great' actually does for us, I find it helpful for me to remember that 'great' is just one meaning among many; 'da' can also be: accomplished, complete, developed, enormous, entire, extreme, grand, great(er, est), mature, noble, noteworthy, realized, seasoned, serious, significant, strong, successful, wholesome, a master, vast, and vital among many others. (I think Harmen would have a good sense of which meanings were in use when the Yi was written.)
A lot of the meanings that you give were in use around 800-300 BC: the 漢語大詞典 (which you can consult here http://www.guoxuedashi.com/hydcd/112800p.html along with numerous other dictionaries) gives examples from the Mengzi, Zhuangzi etc. In many cases the meanings are extensions of 'great, grand', and occasionally it is a verb, like in the Mengzi:

對曰:「王請無好小勇。夫撫劍疾視曰,『彼惡敢當我哉』!此匹夫之勇,敵一人者也。王請之!
I beg your Majesty,' was the reply, 'not to love small valour. If a man brandishes his sword, looks fiercely, and says, "How dare he withstand me?" - this is the valour of a common man, who can be the opponent only of a single individual. I beg your Majesty to greaten it.
(tr. James Legge)

But as usual it is all bout context. We are talking not just about da 大 but about daren 大人. The complete context is

利見大人.

Jian 見, '(go) to see' is the verb here which means that da 大 is not. Da 大 is an adjective that says something about ren 人. Ren 人 = 'man', in a general sense but in early China it most often referred to men (sorry ladies). Which means that when we look at the definitions in the 漢語大詞典 daren 大人 can refer to a great person, a large person, a big person, an elder person, a respected person, a good person, an arrogant person - all these definitions are valid when we look at the time frame during which the Zhouyi was in development.

But the Zhouyi offers some context for daren because it is used not only in the phrase 利見大人 but also at other places:

包承。小人吉。大人否。亨。 (12.2)
休否。大人吉。其亡其亡。繫于苞桑。 (12.5)
亨。貞大人吉。[U+F6E3]咎。有言不信。 (47.0)
大人虎變。未占有孚。 (49.5)

Especially 12.2 tells a lot about the meaning of 大人 because it is compared to the xiaoren 小人: For the little man, the common man, 包承 is good; for the great man it is bad. Bao 包 = 'to contain, to protect, to keep, to adhere to'; cheng 承 = 'to submit to, to yield; obedience'. There is a little bit of overlap in meaning between 包 and 承. baocheng 包承 can mean 'to accept obedience'. This is auspicious (吉) for the common man says the Zhouyi (which says a lot about the audience that the author(s) of the Zhouyi had in mind for their book), but for the great man this is pi/fou 否, the opposite, negative, or even evil if you want.

49.5 can also tell as something about 大人, especially when we combine it with 49.6:

君子豹變。小人革面。

In 49.6 the Junzi (君子) changes like a leopard while the common man (小人) changes his face. The crux of the matter is to be found in the character bian 變: this refers to a natural change, just like leopards (and the tiger in 49.5) shed their coat according to the seasons. The common man, however, forcefully (革) changes his appearance. There are more examples in the Zhouyi where the Junzi is compared with the common man, and what the Junzi does in these cases is regarded as good while what the common man does is, well, not so good. This also goes for 49.6.

The phrase 君子豹變 is similar to 大人虎變 in 49.5 which speaks of the great man that changes like a tiger, but in a natural way, according to what the circumstances are requiring of him. Because he does that he will 未占有孚: inspire confidence in his people without the (normally required) backup of an oracle/ancestor verification.

All this can describe qualities of the daren 大人.
 

Trojina

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Hilary

There is no trigram named 'water'. There is kan, 'chasm', which is associated with running water.

You are seeing the 'same term' in English, but it's not the same in the original.
You have named this trigram 'water' in your book ? Okay the book is 9 years old but what baffles me is every time you write about this trigram in hexagrams, take the recent discussion on tennis in CC, you speak in terms of the qualities of flowing water. So does everyone else, including me.

I think we've discussed this before, where you've said kan is not water but chasm. You say that but continue to write of kan in posts and so on very much as flowing water not as chasms. I get that chasm is associated with running water but when you say kan is not water it's very puzzling in the light of everything else you write about kan and hexagram 29. [MENTION=252]hilary[/MENTION]

I've made an official charge against you here in CC in tennis thread where you used kan quite openly as water
 
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jukkodave

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Hi Iams girl

"The Buddha taught about the nature of reality and how we might experience that (via meditation) - I think of that as an 'inward' journey. But he also gave guidance for how to be in the world: to use right speech, to not cause harm, to find honest or meaningful work and so forth - this we might call our 'outward' journey. ."

Is a good point. What needs to be remembered is that the "guidance" for how to be in the world, just as the Dao de Jing is, as the book cannot do anything but remind us the Dao exists and guides us in our lives, only exists for those ignorant of the "nature of reality". Those who know the nature of reality, which is of two parts, the nature of being human, and the nature of the true Self, the latter being the nature of Dao itself and the first being the nature of the 1,2,3 and the myriad things. As this is a discussion about the Yi we are not concerning ourselves with the nature of the true self, which cannot be spoken anyway, though we can be "sparked" by those others that have trod the "path" before and have the experience of true self or we can be sparked by our own experiences, perhaps those of near death experiences and the like. We may get "glimpses" of the nature of the true self but it requires clarity and understanding to make it real in our lives in the way that Buddha, the Dao and others describe so beautifully. We may get glimpses of the nature of being human in all sorts of ways, personal experiences, stripping away the debris of belief structures, with such methods as rational, coherent and logical examination, and seeing what remains, but taht to requires the work of calrity and understanding to make it "real". The adult human brain has become rather focussed on the external and requires the building of belief structures and the maintenance of our creations of illusion and delusion to keep the external consistent.

At the end of the day the Buddha required no books or guidance to bring him to understanding and knowledge. If and when we understand and know for ourselves we will require no books or guidance for understanding of the true Self, and even though the true self of the Dao cannot be siad in words, the inspiration of others words may be a wonderful and beautiful reminder to us. The world of "the world" is somewhat speakable, though not as clearly as perhaps we may wish, the structures, the foundations, the underlying principles may be difficult to put into words, certainly not singular words, but we can " describe " them to some degree, though history shows us this is not that easy and being part of the world often gets confuse, muddled and mixed up with belief structures, illusions and delusions. The least we can do, even if we are unable to provide descriptions ourselves of theses underlying principles, is to remove the contradictions and inconsistencies that reveal the input of beliefs and illusions and to apply logical rationality and coherence to those questions and point which arise fromthe presence of contradictions, inconsistencies and any other signs that there are beliefs or delusions at play.

"It makes sense to me that if yin manifests accurately in accord with yang energy, it is reflected both inwardly and outwardly. So, as a reverse process, "great" actions might also be a way of prompting or training oneself in the direction of "great" thoughts."

Avoiding the discussions directly on Yin and Yang, which would really take many books and years to even begin to scratch the surface, and alot of removing the "concepts " that have erronously become attached over the millennea, great actions may also be a way of prompting or training oneslef in the direction of great thoughts. All we need then is the knowledge and understanding if what it is that is great within us.
It is of course the ultimate knowledge of the true Self, Buddha, the Dao, but it is also that which is great that is our true natures as human beings, which includes that which we call Yin and Yang, that which we call Qi, that which we call "elemental" forces, that which includes the knowing of how such things as the Yi, Tarot, Astrology, Chinese Medicine are, being representations of the underlying principles connect and resonate together; that which includes the nature of the human brain, how it grows and matures, its ways of harmony and disharmony. All, if they are fundamental to us, will resonate together in fundamental ways, some are more difficult to see, some perhaps more obvious.
Going back to Yin and Yang, it must be remebered that Yin and Yang, as we know and experience them dynamically in the world, rather than the direct expereince of the raw natures of those complimentary opposites, are only existent in relation one to the other. We cannot talk of Yin energy other than it relevance to Yang. Water may be Yin to the grounds Yang, cold may be Yin in realtion to Heat, but put the water and cold together and you can end up with very Yang indeed, the power of icebergs, of hail hitting you delicate Yin skull, which is Yang in realtion to the squigy contents it protects. One way of simplifying Yin and Yang in our lives is to determine the "direction", though there is a third" direction" that should not be ignored, the simplicity of is it inward as opposed to outward, is it less rather than more, is is rising rather than falling, is it decreasing rather than increasing, and so on.

I appreciate that the realisatin that there is no "reality" in the external world comes as a shock to many, it may leave us rather empty and confused, but such things as the reality of the under;ying principles of the Yi, the reminders of such things as the Dao and Buddha, show us that we should not be concerned about such things as feeling empty and confused, perhaps the empty space will be filled by the reality of self and we will find the sparks that illuminate us.
We have a purpose and if were not possible to be fulfilled, if we were not capablele of finding and knowing contentement and fulfillment we would have the hunger and thirsts that we do. If we had no need of coherence and the rational we would have no need to create the illusions that we do just to maintain our pictures of reality. So it is all good stuff and embracing the unknown is always part our journey.

All the best
 

jukkodave

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Hi Hermen

I know what the texts say. I know what the interpretations say. The underlying meaning is somewhat different.

"We are talking not just about da 大 but about daren 大人" is a linguistical consideration. The literal translation does not apply to the recluse that sees no one, the deaf that hears no one. They aare of the external and not of the internal.
The great man, as are possibly all of the rather conceptual terms use, rather than literal terms,whichwe have no difficulty in translating, is a term that is not the external one of a physical manifestation, although it can be if that is what one wishes to believe that is what it means, but it is more than just the external physical manifiestation.

Just as Yin, Yang and Qi have no correlating translatable terms, neither do perhaps, "great man" and "water". But just as we try to explain the "meanings" of Yin, Yang and Qi so we can with such terms as great man and water, though just like Yin, Yang and Qi it is obvious that we cannot do that in a literal singular word manner.

Reiterating the linguistics that I am questioning as haviing the validity we place on them as the means of arguing its validity is hardly going to illuminate as to the underlying meanings of any of the characters.
I gave up with translation wehn I realsied that one couldnt translate a lot of terms successfully or accurately. Qi is Qi, Yang is Yang, Yin is Yin, these are "translations from the characters but there is where it ends, there are no translations beyond those collections of letters which mean nothing in any westernlanguages and cannot be portrayed by singular words inany language.

So it is with great man and water. Being rather findamental in nature there are no singular translations and so the reiteration of the linguitics is really not relevant to a discussion on the underlying meanings of the characters.



Dave
 

hmesker

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You have named this trigram 'water' in your book ? Okay the book is 9 years old but what baffles me is every time you write about this trigram in hexagrams, take the recent discussion on tennis in CC, you speak in terms of the qualities of flowing water. So does everyone else, including me.

I think we've discussed this before, where you've said kan is not water but chasm. You say that but continue to write of kan in posts and so on very much as flowing water not as chasms. I get that chasm is associated with running water but when you say kan is not water it's very puzzling in the light of everything else you write about kan and hexagram 29. [MENTION=252]hilary[/MENTION]
I will not spreak for Hilary but what you describe happens a lot, even in the (old) books in China on the Yijing: that name and image are mixed up and used as synonyms of each other.

Each trigram has a ming 名, a name, and a xiang 象, an image. The name of ☵ is kan 坎. Its image is shui 水. Shui 水 means 'water'. Kan 坎 can mean 'chasm' (but for a hypothetically other meaning in the context of hexagram 29 see here http://www.yjcn.nl/serendipity/archives/127-The-pit-and-the-drum.html).
 

hmesker

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P.S. here are some of the meanings that the 漢語大詞典 gives for daren 大人:

指在高位者,如王公贵族。
Someone in a high position, for instance a member of the nobility.

在官场中成为下属对上司的习惯称呼。
How a lower official addresses a higher official.

犹言王者。
Reference to the king.

对宫闱近侍的尊称。
Honorific title for a personal servant in the palace chambers.

指世家豪右。
A member of a rich , powerful or influential aristocratic family.

指德行高尚、志趣高远的人。
A person of high moral conduct and noble aspirations.

对老者、长者的敬称。
respectful form of address for the elderly.

古代北方部族首领之称。
In ancient times a name for the chief of a Northern tribe.
 

Trojina

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I will not spreak for Hilary but what you describe happens a lot, even in the (old) books in China on the Yijing: that name and image are mixed up and used as synonyms of each other.

Each trigram has a ming 名, a name, and a xiang 象, an image. The name of ☵ is kan 坎. Its image is shui 水. Shui 水 means 'water'. Kan 坎 can mean 'chasm' (but for a hypothetically other meaning in the context of hexagram 29 see here http://www.yjcn.nl/serendipity/archives/127-The-pit-and-the-drum.html).
Thanks Harmen so water is there in the image and for sure the trigram looks like moving water so that's why I was confused when Hilary said there was no trigram named water. Well there it's not a trigram named water but it is water.

No connections for drums yet in line 6 ? You can't just stop at line 5.

I don't see how the sixth line can be linked with all this
Not an excuse, think harder.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Harmen

"P.S. here are some of the meanings that the 漢語大詞典 gives for daren 大人:"

It might be considered rather incomprehensible to those that dont read Chinese anyway, and they are all interpretations.
Isnt that why there are "commentaries", because the literal is not what is trying to be conveyed. If great man meant great man and water meant water, and any other terms that were felt to need a commentary, then the literal meaning would suffice. There would be no discussions and no need for opinions and commentaries. The opinions and comentaries reveal if the underlying principles of the meanings of the words were understood. Even if one was a Chinese person in ancient times, if they did not know and understand the "meanings" of what great man and water intended to signify or symbolise, any opinions or commentaries would be of little value

Repetitions of linguistical considerations could go on for ever without ever adressing the question of what they "mean", what are the underlying fundamental principles that perhaps they refer to, what do they symbolise, what do they signify. There is no furtherer clarification on the "meaning" of the characters intended purposes or intended conveyence by repeating and linking to more specualtions and theories about linguistic consideratons.

Dave
 

legume

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I will not spreak for Hilary but what you describe happens a lot, even in the (old) books in China on the Yijing: that name and image are mixed up and used as synonyms of each other.
thanks for this explanation, i think in most places where i read about trigrams it is clearly mentioned that Kan corresponds with water (not that it means water or translates to water, just that it's been linked to water, as Li's been linked to fire). and as we also have trigram Dui that corresponds with lake, where water that takes up a limited space, the natural conclusion would be that water of Kan is different than that of Dui. it is unrestricted, flowing (that's where imho stronger association with river or stream comes from).

Each trigram has a ming 名, a name, and a xiang 象, an image. The name of ☵ is kan 坎. Its image is shui 水. Shui 水 means 'water'. Kan 坎 can mean 'chasm' (but for a hypothetically other meaning in the context of hexagram 29 see here http://www.yjcn.nl/serendipity/archi...-the-drum.html).
but i find it even more interesting that Kan actually translates to chasm. when i think of a chasm, a greater image of a canyon comes to mind, and after all, what's a canyon if not one of the water's greatest masterpieces on the canvas of earth? btw, that also seems to add to the "danger" theme in terms of crossing the flowing water...

i always found it helpful to think of water (of Kan) as steadily carving its path, similar to Wilhelm's commentary to the image of 4: A spring succeeds in flowing on and escapes stagnation by filling up all the hollow places in its path. In the same way character is developed by thoroughness that skips nothing but, like water, gradually and steadily fills up all gaps and so flows onward.

and although my associations might seem pretty grand, i think this would be applicable to anyone living on the planet - flowing water is imo necessary for development and practically any intelligent creature on earth would somehow make it part of their environment, making it also possible to learn from its behaviour, with or without Yi's help ;)
 

jukkodave

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"Well there it's not a trigram named water but it is water."

Good point Trojina. But of course other translators are quite content to name the Trigram as water, though that does create a problem with having the name of a fundamental element the same as a Trigram, so changing it to something that desnt create so much obvious contradiction is a good way to hide the contradictions and discrepancies.
Perhaps the literal translations are wrong yet again. Perhaps pit hole doesnt mean that at all, and means a circular space of some sort or the other, That then makes sense as to why kan kan is a drum, but wouldnt make sense for a double "pit", Any "doubled " sound could represent the sound of a drum, but as a drum is a "pit" that brings a different light on what we have interpreted as hole or pit.

The interpretation of why "water " is associated with "danger" is a rather poor one of what "water" as a basic elemental substance really means, not dissimilar to the western use of left being "sinister".
Left isnt "sinister" anymore that water is "danger". The underlying meaning rules over any literal interpretations any day as it provides some of the context, and without context we might go of in all sorts of directions, just as Legge and Wilhem have done in their interpretations, becuse they seem to have no concept of any underlying principles at all and so have to take the litrela linguistically limited view.

Dave
 

hmesker

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but i find it even more interesting that Kan actually translates to chasm.
Personally I find 'chasm' an interpretation and not a translation: we have no texts in which kan 坎 is used with the meaning of 'chasm'. It refers to a hole or pit but not to something as big as a 'chasm'. 'As far as I'm concerned the meaning of 'chasm' is impossible to fit in the context of the line texts in which kan 坎 is used. This is the problem that I have with looking at Chinese characters without considering their contexts, which is also the objection that I have against the Ritsema & Karcher/Sabbadini versions: most of the meanings that they give for the characters are invalid because they don't fit the context in which they are used (it also contains interpretations: no way that the name of hexagram 44, gou 姤 means 'magnetism' or 'gravity'.)

An interesting - although indirect - connection between the meaning of 'pit' and the trigram is found in the Liji:

周人祭日,以朝及闇。祭日於壇,祭月於坎,以別幽明...
Under the Zhou they sacrificed all the day, especially at daybreak, and towards evening. They sacrificed to the sun on the altar, and to the moon in the hollow - to mark the distinction between (the) gloom (of the one) and (the) brightness (of the other)...
(tr. James Legge)

'Hollow' is Legge's translation of kan 坎. I find this interesting because the trigram is associated with the moon.
 

legume

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and another (maybe a little far out idea), that i carry within, is that (as our bodies are mostly made up of water, that's in constant flow ;)) maybe the phrase is about crossing the boundaries of "oneself". while seeing the great man, could mean to be "one with all" (also "go with he flow"?), as when, again, the great man takes care of the superior man ("higher self") to take care of all men through them (own "inferior men" or the ego, while through that being naturally of service to others)...
 

legume

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'Hollow' is Legge's translation of kan 坎. I find this interesting because the trigram is associated with the moon.
so cool, thanks for all this. probably i'm biased since i might have internalised all the interpretations i've been exposed to over the years, so still can't help but feel the connection with water and its flow.

pit, makes me think of digging in the ground until i arrive at a water spring... hollow, as a something that can be filled trough the flow (of water). moon as a reference to tides and it's calendar is still used in gardening in connection to "movement" of water... so to me it seems that through different translations and their interpretations we might actually find something universal, something that connects them all. i believe water, with its characteristics of belonging to the flow, the hollow, the pit, the abyss, etc. is a good metaphor. but, i guess, still - just a metaphor?
 

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I don't think 'pit' in Yi is someone where one wants to be.
 

legume

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I don't think 'pit' in Yi is someone where one wants to be.
hmm, maybe in terms of Yi falling into a pit is on the other side of the spectrum of interacting with Kan than "crossing the water" but without ever getting into "the abyss" how can one learn how to swim (like "being thrown in at the deep end")?
 

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You have named this trigram 'water' in your book ? Okay the book is 9 years old but what baffles me is every time you write about this trigram in hexagrams, take the recent discussion on tennis in CC, you speak in terms of the qualities of flowing water. So does everyone else, including me.

I think we've discussed this before, where you've said kan is not water but chasm. You say that but continue to write of kan in posts and so on very much as flowing water not as chasms. I get that chasm is associated with running water but when you say kan is not water it's very puzzling in the light of everything else you write about kan and hexagram 29. [MENTION=252]hilary[/MENTION]
Ah, um, yes, quite. In my defence (your honour), I was responding specifically to JD's misconception that the same word 'water' was used to denote the trigram and the river - which would indeed be confusing/contradictory, if the same word were used for two pretty much unrelated things. But in fact they're two different words, and neither is 'water'. The only confusion here is created by relying on translations.

P.S. here are some of the meanings that the 漢語大詞典 gives for daren 大人:...
Thanks. What do you think of the idea (in Wu Jing Nuan, I think) that the 'great man' could be the diviner?
 

hmesker

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Thanks. What do you think of the idea (in Wu Jing Nuan, I think) that the 'great man' could be the diviner?
It is an option that I can't rule out completely, because one meaning that I overlooked when I was reading the 漢語大詞典 is

周代占夢之官。
An official at the Zhou court who divined by interpreting dreams.

But since the Zhouyi is an oracle book intended to be used by people who were familiar with its usage it would be strange if the book would tell you to go and see a diviner. It's would be like reading a cook book that says "go to a restaurant."
 

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True. Though with some people's cooking, that might be quite a useful cookbook.
 

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Ah. So when the Zhouyi says 利見大人 it could mean "you really suck as diviner. Go see someone who actually is one."

Suddenly several of my past readings make sense!
 
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Freedda

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Ah. So when the Zhouyi says 利見大人 it could mean "you really suck as diviner. Go see someone who actually is one." Suddenly several of my past readings make sense!
So, which line/oracle text is this from (characters did not come across in my browser)? And is it that some of your past readings suddenly 'made sense' or suddently you see they may have not ... ? :duh:

Which reminds me - and I may have quoted it before - towards the end of the 1970 film 'Little Big Man', Dustin Hoffman's adopted Cheyenne father, Old Lodge Skins lies down to die, because 'it is a good day to die'. but after a few mintues of lying there with the rain starting, he opens his eyes and says, 'Well, sometimes the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't.

(I recently re-watched the film and it holds up pretty well, even these 49 years later - god, was I ever really that young?)

D.
 

hmesker

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So, which line/oracle text is this from (characters did not come across in my browser)? And is it that some of your past readings suddenly 'made sense' or suddently you see they may have not ... ? :duh:
It was supposed to say "beneficial to see the great man" in Chinese. I hope this Chinese character glitch will be removed with the upgrade.

About the past readings: I was joking. I don't have past readings.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Hilary

No misconception. I was referring to the translations.
As that is what most only have to go on, and that is what most would use, and if translators consider the word the same, in translation, that is indicative of confusion and contradiction in the process of translation. Which results on confusion on the user of the Yi perhaps.
How do the contradictions and confusions ever get resolved, with application of the fundamental underlying principles.

Dave
 

Freedda

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So when the Zhouyi says it is' beneficial to see the great man' it could mean "you really suck as diviner. Go see someone who actually is one."
Thanks Harmen. And I suppose it could also mean, 'you've asked about gardening' or playing music, and since I'm neither a gardner nor a music teacher, I suggest you go see ....'

Also, sometimes the Chinese characters you post do come across, sometimes not.

Best, D.
 
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jukkodave

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"Ah. So when the Zhouyi says 利見大人 it could mean "you really suck as diviner. Go see someone who actually is one.""

But doesnt that negate the whole purpose of doing readings onesself if one has to go the see an expert diviner.
And what would a real diviner be, someone that knows and understands the underlying principles. And how would we determine if someone kew and understood anything of fundamantal underlying principles.

It is of course a total conundrum, a Catch 22 of epic proportions. One does a reading and is told to see an actual diviner, but the only way of knowing if someone is an actual diviner is to know the underlying principles oneself. But if one knows the underlying principles one IS an actual diviner, so one could never be told to see a diviner.

We seem to be forgetting the history. The Yi was the domain of the elite, can you imagine a ruler or anyone with power going to his diviner to be told he needs to see a proper diviner.

Looks like we are no clearer than when we started.
Kan means this, it means that, is it a Hexagram, is it a Trigram, is it water, is it a chasm, is it a drum.

Dave
 

jukkodave

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Hi Harmen

"Personally I find 'chasm' an interpretation and not a translation"

And what is a translation but an interpretation. If it was nay different there would be no discussions of the interpreatations of a translation, It would just be what it was.

"It refers to a hole or pit but not to something as big as a 'chasm"

How about a hol(e)low that is a drum. Say it twice and its almost like drumming.

"This is the problem that I have with looking at Chinese characters without considering their contexts,"

That the problem I have with looking at Chinese characters (and translations) without considering their context of underlying principles.

I concur with the views on Ritsema/ Karcher. But then they do place an emphaisis on Trigrams, and if that concept is full of confusion and may not even have any validity or relavance at all, no wonder their Yi makes little sense.

But you can see how they came to that conclusion given the "image" of the Hexagram. Is the image wrong, gravity looks like a very valid intepretation of the presented image.
Does that mean that the images of the Hexagrams is something that we should be setting aside.

Dave
 

jukkodave

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Hi trojina

But if it means a connection with a hollow drum, perhaps one that is tuned by lifting it off the ground that would gove a rather differnt interpreation and meaning to Hexagram 29.
Which then means that the "intepretations" that have been handed down for the lines, rathere than being one of danger is one of rejoicing with the spirit of music and dancing and letting go to the moment, just like "water" might do.

Just thinking out loud
:claps:

Dave
 

hmesker

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Also, sometimes the Chinese characters you post do come across, sometimes not.
I have found out that the old-fashioned Big5 encoding seems to give best results. I'll keep trying.

About da chuan大川, 'great river(s)': in the old texts it is most often used as a general reference to the large rivers in the country or state, which often served as boundaries. There is no reason why we couldn't translate it in the plural: 'advantageous to cross (the) great rivers'. This might be related to the zheng 征, the expeditions that are mentioned in the Zhouyi.
 

Freedda

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About da chuan大川, 'great river(s)': in the old texts it is most often used as a general reference to the large rivers in the country or state, which often served as boundaries. There is no reason why we couldn't translate it in the plural: 'advantageous to cross (the) great rivers'. This might be related to the zheng 征, the expeditions that are mentioned in the Zhouyi.
Thanks again Harmen. Is it possible then that to 'cross the great river(s)' might be advice to cross some boundary or limitation (internal or external), or maybe to get out of our comfort zone? I'd expect that crossing a river in ancient times - especially one that was large or unknown - might feel like that.

Also, as an aside ... I asked in another thread if anyone knew of any good or decent translations of the Zhuanzi-(Chuang-Tzu) that might be 'accessable' (e.g. not too convoluted or fluffy).

Best, David.
 

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