What does it mean to see the Great Man and to Cross the Water

[jukkodave]

About da chuan大川, 'great river(s)': in the old texts it is most often used as a general reference to the large rivers in the country or state, which often served as boundaries.

Reminding us that there was little communications between the regions, that they were fuedal and often warring one with t'other and wouldnt be likely to share their precious divination secrets, that might give them a distinct adavantage when it came to any conflict or any negotiations or any interactions with their delightful, but intrusted neighbours. So what got passed down, or survived is likely to be only a fragment of any original forms of divination, or of the Yi itself, if of course such a thing ever existed and a single original structured document.

Context is rather important.

On the point of Kan being a reference, not to a pit or hole, but a drum, I was being rather obtuse in taking perhaps the most opposite view than what is commonly accepted as Hex 29.
It should be remebered that "drums" were a way of communicating over large distances, when there was lots of other nois, such as during acts of warfare, and were used in that context. With the possibility that is how "danger" becomes associated with Kan. It seems that a "pit" might act very well as a resonator and extend the range of a drum.
Drum -pit- conflict- danger.
That could mean that particular section of interpretation survived as a relic from a warring region, such as the art of war, and not as that of any inner fundamental underlying principles, or that the translators over the years, not understanding that a drum might be used other than a means of war have only seen the danger aspect and have limited the meaning of the character to something that it, might be in one context, but wouldnt be in the context of underlying principles.

Dave

 

[hmesker]

Thanks again Harmen. Is it possible then that to 'cross the great river(s)' might be advice to cross some boundary or limitation (internal or external), or maybe to get out of our comfort zone? I'd expect that crossing a river in ancient times - especially one that was large or unknown - might feel like that.

Hmmm, yes, I can live with that

Also, as an aside ... I asked in another thread if anyone knew of any good or decent translations of the Zhuanzi-(Chuang-Tzu) that might be 'accessable' (e.g. not too convoluted or fluffy).

I am not vey familiar with the Zhuangzi so I don't know which translation I would prefer. There are some threads on Reddit with questions related to yours:

https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/bu8b0m/what_is_the_best_translation_of_the_zhuangzi/

https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/cakgxr/whats_your_favorite_translation_of_chuangtsu/

Although I have the impression that most translations are not the complete Zhuangzi. I am fine with Legge's translation and when I doubt what he says I'll resort to the Chinese text.

 

[Chris_22]

Hi Legume

A most comprehensive response indeed. I knew both were common terms but having never been as attentive to detail as your ggod self I didnt realise how common.

However the "notes" that have been added are entirely dependent on the authors understanding, which may have only been in the more literal sense and already along the lines of great effort and danger.

It is a very good point that more "acheivements" were obtained by exploring the seas than by exploring mountains. But I think that you are mixing your metaphors and criteria. The references I gave were to mountains and lakes, along with water descriptions of Trigrams. So if Trigrams are relevant then "crossing the water" would surely be in the context of rather more fundamental consideration than exploration of sea and mountain. And of course a lake is water as well so the question of "water" being crossed obviously applies to whatever "water" is in terms of the Trigrams. You also point out that several Hexagrams further differentiate water from "stream".
So 3 different types of water; lake, stream and water. They cannot mean the same thing or the Trigrams would not differentiate between lake and water and the Yi would not differentiate between stream and water.

"i'd say water is superior to mountain,"

Of course that cannot be true as each of the Trigrams are equal, none are superior to any of the others.

"it's a greater task to cross the river or big water than to climb a mountain, in the sense of possibility of getting not only one's tail wet but when getting your head under water you can literally drown. so there's some danger to it as well."

If it was greater task then everyone would have been climbing mountains long before anyone traversed the seven seas, but hemans went sailing long before mountains were conquered.
Have you forgotten that boats have been around for an exceedingly long time and so crossing any water would not have been that much of a danger in itself, in the literal sense of crossing water. But why not then crossing a lake or a big stream. A big stream, being much more dofficult to negotiate by boat would have presented a far greater challenge than the crossing of any water. And if that was the reference it would have been about the dangers of going on a journey. And how would one be seeing any sort of great man if one was away on a great and dangerous journey.

So it obviously means something else. Water is one of the Trigrams and if it wasnt a reference to a Trigram logically it would have beena different reference. But why would one need to "cross" something like a Trigram.

"but in both cases, crossing the water or seeing a great man would be difficult to generalise, it's easier understood in the context of a reading or one's own life. i can't know what these things mean to you or how would they manifest in your reality."

But then I am puzzled, if you consider they would be difficult to generalise and easier understood in a personal context, why have you attempted to do just what you consider that you say "i cant know what these things mean.."
I dont get why you think you cant say or know and then give an opinion of what you dont think you know.

But I have to respect the effort.

I did make the rather valid point that the Yi, unless one is intending to take it literally and with littel or no consideration of any underlying principles has to be applicable to everyone. So an agoraphobic who never goes out to see any one and would have no access to any wise or great men would still be getting such a reading. Someone in or near a desert might never come close to any "water".
So it obviously means something other than a physical representation.

You have quoted from Hex 27, which differentiates between a "great" man and a superior man, so there cant be to many of those around and what would the chances be of having one in ones neighbourhood and how would one even know if they were a great man or not.

"He who cultivates the inferior parts of his nature is an inferior man. He who cultivates the superior parts of his nature is a superior man."

Then by the same cirteriahe who cutivates the "great" partso f oneself is a great man. All one would have to do then is work out what the "great" parts are and one wouldnt need to see anyone but just look in the morror of ones self.A valiant attempt despite your saying that you cant know. But you have raised more questions and in doing so have made it obvious that you have answered none of them.
Welcome to the world of not knowing, that is the basis of the Forum anyway so we are all in good company.
But if we could strip it back to fundamentals and have some consistency in our arguments so that they are logical, rational and coherent, perhaps collectively we might stumble upon an illumination.
The Ancient Greek is that "truth" is the state of not being hidden and perhaps if we do as Sherlock Holmes says "eliminate all other factors and the one that remains must be the truth. That is one part of the application of rational and coherent logic.

"if you draw a cord between ting's ears you can literally use it to draw from the well - hex 48."

But there is nothing in that to explain why it is the ears that are yellow and not the rest of it, and why a ting.What would the significance of some ting rather than another object.

All the bleat

Dave

Read through this a long way only to utter Earth, Air, Fire and Water - the four Elementals from which we're all made, the earth is made and Magic is made. I Ching is also a book of "Magic" Oracles and even spells.