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what does the Yi think of the Covid vaccine 21.3 to 30

Lettuce

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i thought this was a very interesting answer. i marvel at the yi ching. This is how i interpreted the line

21.3 which reads ‘biting through dried meat (our skin) and meeting with poison ( the vaccine) , small distress; there is no trouble.’ quite incredible this Yi Ching is. I am reassured it says no trouble (phew)!

But some translations say ‘no blame’ and ‘humiliation’

If anyone has anything to add to this reading please help me shed some light on what answer the yi has given

thanks
Lettuce
 

dfreed

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This is how i interpreted the line ....
I assume you realize that this question - and others that are very similar - have been asked and ‘interpreted’ thousands of times, with no final, definitive, or ‘correct’ answers.
Therefore maybe the Yi is not as marvelous as we’d like to think?
 

rosada

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When I first started consulting the I Ching I was delighted with its clear, unequivocal answer but then as I became more aware of the subtleties the answers seemed to become less straight forward and now they seem to more often than not to mirror my confusion or prejudices unless I am very, very careful to be neutral. Thus while one might at first glance see 21.3 as meaning "no trouble" (and be right!), a bit more study of the line can also reveal an opposite meaning:
21.3
"Biting on dried meat, coming on poison. Small shame, not a mistake." Is this the IChing saying that while the vaccine is like a poison it is only a small shame, not a deadly poison and therefore not a mistake? But that's really seeing in the words something quite different from the classical meaning of the line which Hilary gives as "This is not edible, much less nourishing, things will not work out as you hoped. ..Now that you realize the meat is bad, you have the insight and understanding you need to go in search of better food."
So one person might interpret this line as reassurance that the vaccine is "not a mistake" while another might see this line as saying getting vaccinated is a shame and that there are better ways to go.

I'm not advocating either interpretation - I've gotten plenty of meaningful insights from the lines that I later couldn't figure out for the life of me how I got those meanings even though they proved to be true! - I'm just commenting that as dfreed says, we can't always know we've understood the final, definative, or 'correct' answer. However I still think the Yi is totally marvelous!!!
 
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Lettuce

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i certainly my got the feeling it could be interpreted in a more negative light but i did want to hear it from those who are more experienced
 

Lettuce

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i asked the iching to clarify the answer and i got 22.3 to 27

again it does seem to suggest that what appears to nouris you might not actually be the case. Am i totally off.

Rosada, im so pleased you answered as I kinda see you as an iching guru
 

dfreed

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Okay, I'll give my only slightly biased interpretation: Line 21.3 - Biting dried meat: getting poison to eat. Little distress. No misfortune.

Poison to eat:
vaccines work by delivering a bit of the offending virus (from it's protein or its DNA or mDNA, etc), and our bodies then produce the necessary products (white blood cells, etc.) to defend against the virus. Our bodies then have the necessary 'weapons' and defenses, and it remembers how to use them, when a virus tries to 'infect' us.

Little distress: the vast majority of us felt a bit of 'distress' - a sore arm, being tired, a fever - when we got the vaccine. But of the hundreds of people I know and have met who have gotten vaccinate, I know of no one who had any lasting or damaging after-effects (despite all the fear and disinformation we're seeing).

No misfortune: given the fact that I've had dozens of vaccinations, but I have never had smallpox, tetanus (lockjaw), polio, shingles, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), measles, mumps and rubella, and I haven't had the flu in over 25 years - I consider myself to be very fortunate, and see no reason why taking COVID vaccine would make me or anyone else any less fortunate.

(And since it seems that many of us - including the anti-vaxers - have forgotten, I think it's good to remember that people used to die by the tens of millions from these diseases.)

Looking at the trigrams:

21's lower trigram Thunder with the 3rd line moving, gives us Li / Flame / Fire. Here people want to deal with COVID very quickly, and hence we have had this Thunder-like rush to develop vaccines; however this rush is a bit unbalanced, perhaps being too quick - and perhaps influenced by 21's upper nuclear trigram, Water and it's associated fear and emotions.

So, we need to consider what we're doing with more clarity, and here we also have a reminder - that this is about protecting people, making them feel safe, and it's about people coexisting, working together, being (co-) dependent with one another (like flame, wind and wood) - all of which are associations with Li / Flame. And maybe with the development and continued use of the vaccines this is where we're headed.

One name for 30 is 'Oriole' and the hexagram statement is: Favorable augury. Offering. Auspicious for raising cows. (Rutt)

So I can imagine: the King asks how to deal with a plague, and a bright yellow bird crosses his path, and the diviner says this is sign: we can take this as a favorable omen (or augury)! And ... these vaccines are about getting us back to how we were before the pandemic struck, back to our jobs and lives, and activities - and 'auspicious for raising cows' reminds me of this.

Therefore I pronounce the COVID vaccine to be VERY AUSPICIOUS, and we all should be willing to give up or 'sacrifice' our smaller (maybe petty, selfish, scared, uninformed) selves in order to help end the pandemic. Or at least that's what the Yi is telling us.


Best, D
 
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Lettuce

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itching aside. Each individual must make the decision for themselves whether they feel it is right to take the vaccine or not. undoubtedly, it will not be beneficial for all as we are unique beings. I have already had both vaccines but I still keep an open mind as to whether it is beneficial. You don’t need to be petty, selfish, uninformed nor scared to question
 

Lettuce

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your reading D us how i read it but i feel it is healthy to be open to other interpretations
 

dfreed

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Nope, mine is the only correct interpretation!
Or ... there are going to be lots of different interpretations, but I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Should we then conclude that the Yi is wishy-washy and can't make up 'it's' mind? Or, maybe a more correct question to ask might be:

'What do I (not the Yi) think of the COVID vaccines?'

But here again, are we going to 'interpret' the answer based on our preconceived ideas and biases (which seems to be what most of us do)? Or are we genuinely open to whatever answer we get - even it if means we have to challenge, question or even (god forbid) change our minds and give up our own (perhaps small-minded) beliefs - which I think hardly any of us ever do?

D.
 
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diamant

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what does the Yi think of the Covid vaccine 21.3 > 30

You must have a specific vaccine in mind (the covid vaccine..?), as there are various very different covid vaccines. Currently, none of them claims to prevent infection (only to prevent severe disease), so in that they are very different than other classic vaccines. There is one which claims to prevent infection (Novavax), but it hasn't been authorised yet.

Every time I got this cast, I had come in contact with 'poisonous' rotten people, and I indeed felt sick afterwards, as if their malice had rubbed off on me. 30 is about looking after yourself, so after every poisoning there is recovery. What this might mean here, not sure.

i asked the iching to clarify the answer and i got 22.3 > 27
This is the line of being constantly drugged, and still needing more. So I guess it will be like the flu vaccines, repeating every year.
 

redoleander

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I wonder if also it shows some range of outcomes? Even many scientists and physicians have commented that vaccines, including these, have not been sufficiently tested on women (or, better put, anyone with a menstrual cycle) and in the case of these new COVID vaccines many people are experiencing significant, prolonged menstrual disturbances. Some people's immune systems make a vaccine irrelevant, their body won't mount a sufficient immune response, so they rely on enough other people getting the vaccine so we reach herd immunity. For many, the vaccine produced very little side effect. For those who already had COVID, the reaction has statistically been worse, with bad reactions to both the first and second shot.

Maybe the Yi isn't in a constant reactionary battle the way humans are, where everything must be grouped as good and bad or intelligent and unintelligent, which would make it a lot more like real medicine and the actual human body. One flat "correct" answer does not exist.
 

dfreed

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Currently, none of them claims to prevent infection (only to prevent severe disease), so in that they are very different than other classic vaccines.
This not my understanding. Instead:

"Different types of vaccines work in different ways to offer protection. But with all types of vaccines, the body is left with a supply of “memory” T-lymphocytes (and) B-lymphocytes (different types of white blood cells) that will remember how to fight that virus in the future .... (and) each type of vaccine prompts our bodies to recognize and protect us from the virus that causes COVID-19. None of these vaccines can give you COVID-19." (From CDC website.)

And even the 'classic' Flu vaccine reduces the risk of getting the flu, it does not prevent it.
 
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diamant

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I mentioned that it does not stop you getting infected and developing the disease, because you compared it to other vaccines ("smallpox, tetanus (lockjaw), polio, shingles, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), measles, mumps and rubella").
Covid vaccines do not work like the ones you mentioned. Yes, some people develop antibodies via covid vaccines, but they can still get infected, develop the disease, transmit it to others. In the UK, people who had both doses even developed severe disease and got hospitalised. The CDC has got so many things tragically wrong in this pandemic that I'm surprised you quoted them.
 

redoleander

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I am curious then, how your interpretation of 22.3 > 27 is showing or indicating to you a 'range of outcomes'?


Best, D
Oh, I didn't mean that the line itself means "range of outcomes". The various translations I've read of the line seem to express along a spectrum. Some describe it as disagreeable, some poisonous, some say shame but no blame, some say no trouble. I meant that maybe these differences in interpretation and understanding could possibly be reflective of numerous truths (as opposed to just one being the dead on correct one). Just a thought I had reading the thread, may or may not be true.

It's interesting to read Lise's interpretation too, I just read it now: "Enjoy things but not in a mindless way. Maybe everything is fine, but if you’re too gullible, nice times can turn into dark ones. A little precaution or attention can avoid big disasters."

I also like her interpretation of the line it changes to:
9 at 3: The Bright Bird of sunset. Not drumming on jars and singing, then big laments of old age. Pitfall.
If you are not able to use little events as cause for joy, happiness or togetherness, difficult times will be a disaster for you. Seemingly useless things can be extremely useful in another realm of consciousness, so open your eyes and look for them. If your heart stays young and open, so will you.

To me, this says that it's about appreciating the advances that are being made (the glass half full part of it) while also understanding that it doesn't nearly solve the entire problem (which is true in this complicated world, I mean look at what's happening in India, Brazil, Chile, so many other places.) Vaccine isn't a magic bullet, it seems to say, but it's worth appreciating for what it can contribute.
 

dfreed

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The various translations I've read of the line seem to express along a spectrum. Some describe it as disagreeable, some poisonous, some say shame but no blame, some say no trouble.
Well, maybe the problems is reading or relying on too many translations and commentaries. What you are describing can be said for every reading and casting, so I think we better just stop this nonsense right now, because clearly we can't get reliable or useful information from the Yi!

Or, maybe we should just assume that the Yi agrees with our own position of things, in which case, I'm always right (so see my 'correct' interpretation, above).

I know that's an exaggeration, but I think that's not far off from what you're describing. Or are you saying something else perhaps, and I'm not really getting it?

Best, D
 

redoleander

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I know that's an exaggeration, but I think that's not far off from what you're describing. Or are you saying something else perhaps, and I'm not really getting it?

Best, D
That’s not my perception of what I’m describing. I receive a lot of extremely clear and direct answers, even as a beginner. But often those questions are fairly narrow in scope. A question that affects millions of people might not have one neat, clean answer though. I’m fine with that because it aligns with how I perceive reality.

I’m more beginner than you, so it’s very possible that reading too many translations isn’t always helpful! For me, it’s pretty normal because I do translation work in another language, in which I’m fluent, and I’ve spent years reading 3 to 5 translations of the same texts; that’s a big part of how I learned to translate and it’s also taught me that the process reveals facets of the original text I might not ordinarily see, even being fluent in the language. Of course I want to rely on the original words but, even in a language I speak, I find it benefits me at times to read the same sentence through multiple translators. So, I will probably do this for quite a while while I’m learning — especially given I don’t read the original language! :)

Even if we look at the example of your interpretation of what I wrote above... I didn’t actually say any of that 😂. This is normal to do though (we augment). I think we can definitely miss the point by being to vague (as you said, essentially), but other times we miss the point by needing to shoehorn everything into our very specific paradigm or conclusions, when perhaps what’s being said is coming from another place. Both create poor “translations”, so to speak. I think we all have lots of bias we bring to our readings and sometimes being too sure we’re 100% right can mean bias has gone unchecked? Has that ever been your experience?
 
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Lettuce

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from looking back in my journal at my experiences with the line 21.3 I am inclined towards Rosadas succinct reading of the line.

i received this line when my daughter experienced severe bullying at school. It got so out of hand the perpetrators managed to turn an entire school full of students against her. That is certainly how it felt for my daughter. She was abused and bullied online too. Yet she was innocent. It was an incredibly humiliating and toxic experience for her. We ended up moving her another school as the situation was too toxic to remedy. It certainly is an old issue with the school that hasn’t been fixed as other girls in the past have left due to bullying.

I hope this clarifies the line for people.

my 2nd experience with line 21.3 was with someone who treated me in a very disrespectful manner. This toxic behavior has been experienced by others too. Encountering this person was a very humiliating experience and the only remedy was to remove myself completely from this person. His toxic behavior humiliated me but i was not to blame.

So a similar experience when receiving this line twice!
 

dfreed

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That’s not my perception of what I’m describing. I receive a lot of extremely clear and direct answers .... But ... a question that affects millions of people might not have one neat, clean answer though.
I apologize for being a bit overly 'pointed' and opinionated. One thing I was getting to was that these type of broad questions - like about our recent US elections, or where did the China Virus come from, etc. are perhaps not only too broad, but more importantly they are too loaded - and that even if the Yi were to give us a clear, concise answer, we'd end up with countless 'interpretations' of what the Yi is saying.

Often too, people begin to bring in - and fight over - 'facts' that they've found on the internet, so it is no longer just about interpreting the Yi's response, but becomes a battle of internet information: 'one doctor I read said that the virus is ... someone said that masks are .... the CDC said .... and so forth.

So yes, you may be correct that there is no clear answer here (and with other questions); but sometimes it may be that there is a 'clear answer', but people just don't want to hear because it doesn't agree with what they already believe - and questions about politics and a world-wide pandemic certainly lend themselves to this sort of 'interpretation'.

Kindly, D.

Best, D.
 

dfreed

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we all should be willing to give up or 'sacrifice' our smaller (maybe petty, selfish, scared, uninformed) selves in order to help end the pandemic. Or at least that's what the Yi is telling us.

You don’t need to be petty, selfish, uninformed nor scared to question
I was being at bit silly and sarcastic here, since I started out the paragraph with: "Therefore I pronounce the COVID vaccine to be VERY AUSPICIOUS" .... but admittedly, my auspicious sarcasm and wit don't always transfer as well as I think they do.

A few points:

First, I didn't say that 'small' absolutely meant these things; I said "maybe" petty, selfish .... And so if the shoe does not fit, it does not fit.

Second, in the more classic Confucian understanding and commentaries about 'small' it can and often does mean these things. For example from Wilhelm's commentary about Hex 12 ... "The great departs; the small approaches."

".... Weakness is within, harshness without. Within are the inferior, and without are the superior. The way of inferior (e.g. small) people is in ascent; the way of superior people is on the decline."

And finally, since I don't usually pay that much attention to commentaries - at least not as my first source (or always a reliable source) of information - I have sometimes though, 'hmm, could this mean that in this instance (the situation I'm asking the Yi about) I should pay attention and attend to 'small' things - affairs and situations that are close to me. Or maybe here 'small' changes (in attitude, perception, action) can be just as important and just as 'great' as the great stuff.'

But I don't think I'd arrive at that conclusion if I always relied on commentaries to tell me what I'm seeing and feeling.

Best, D
 

rosada

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This was certainly a very broad question..
"What does the Yi think?" This assumes the I Ching thinks. Don't get me started on that one...
"..of the Covid vaccine?" Which one? And what about it? Is it effective? Are their side effects? Can everyone take it safely?
To answer all of these questions with one hexagram requires a very broad - and thus rather superficial - answer. Thus we get "The vaccine is something like a small poison" which fits as a broad answer but it can't tell us whether it is effective and safe for everyone on the whole planet.
 

dfreed

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I mentioned that it does not stop you getting infected and developing the disease, because .... Covid vaccines do not work like the ones you mentioned.
I think you are missing the point of what I was getting to here. I mentioned all these other diseases - and their accompanying vaccines when I was discussing the word 'No misfortune' from Line 21.3 which is part of the original query:

Line 21.3 - Biting dried meat: getting poison to eat. Little distress. No misfortune.

My point, which I was perhaps not clear about - is that given the hundreds of millions of people who have been spared suffering and death because of these vaccines - regardless of how they work - I'd clearly place the COVID vaccines in the 'no misfortune' category: their use, similar to the use of these other vaccines, gives is 'no misfortune' - though perhaps a 'little distress'.

That does not mean that I think they are 100% effective, or that they are not without their side-effects, etc. just that when compared to the alternative they are far, far better.

As to how the different vaccines work, or if the COVID vaccines are similar to, or the same as other vaccines - I only have an informed, lay person's opinion about that; but regardless, it doesn't really matter in terms of my interpretation of Line 21.3.

Regards, D
 

dfreed

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This assumes the I Ching thinks. Don't get me started on that one...
What, you don't want to get really deep into the weeds over, is the Yi is a sentient being or not? Chicken! ❤️
 

redoleander

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This was certainly a very broad question..
"What does the Yi think?" This assumes the I Ching thinks. Don't get me started on that one...
"..of the Covid vaccine?" Which one? And what about it? Is it effective? Are their side effects? Can everyone take it safely?
To answer all of these questions with one hexagram requires a very broad - and thus rather superficial - answer. Thus we get "The vaccine is something like a small poison" which fits as a broad answer but it can't tell us whether it is effective and safe for everyone on the whole planet.
This makes a lot of sense.
 

dfreed

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To answer all of these questions with one hexagram requires a very broad - and thus rather superficial - answer.
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, however, my interpretation above feels a lot more specific and less superficial, even when we're interpreting a really broad question.

So, I don't know if we can always create a rule about this (e.g. broad questions always lead to superficial answers), but perhaps we can think of this as a guideline, or a starting point to work from.

Best, D
 

Lettuce

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yes Rosada i understand your point. On further inspection it is a pretty broad qu. I really wanted to know if it was regarded as a positive thing or negative. But then it could be totally redundant etc etc. I could have received a rather confusing answer but when I look closely at the text i do feel it has given a relatively clear answer (to me). After all no answer is bullet proof. When i ask the Iching i assume i am asking God to be honest. So, yes i do presume it thinks and much more.
 

Lettuce

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thank you all for your input! i learn so much from you guys
 

rosada

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dfreed - in the above post #6 you referred to hexagram 50 but 21.3 changes to hex.30.
Any thoughts on what 30 means here?
 

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