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what does the Yi think of the Covid vaccine 21.3 to 30
- Thread starter Lettuce
- Start date
Ah, a bone-head error on my part! Thanks (I guess?
) for pointing that out. I went back and changed my initial reading. Luckily I think the rest of my interpretation still holds up. (Sometimes I feel that divination includes these 'happy accidents, and they can also be 'correct' - but I did go back and change it in this reading so as not to get distracted.)Looking at the trigrams:
21's lower trigram Thunder with the 3rd line moving, gives us Li / Flame / Fire. Here people want to deal with COVID very quickly, and hence we have had this Thunder-like rush to develop vaccines; however this rush is a bit unbalanced, perhaps being too quick - and perhaps influenced by 21's upper nuclear trigram, Water and it's associated fear and emotions.
So, we need to consider what we're doing with more clarity, and here we also have a reminder - that this is about protecting people, making them feel safe, and it's about people coexisting, working together, being (co-) dependent with one another (like flame, wind and wood) - all of which are associations with Li / Flame. And maybe with the development and continued use of the vaccines this is where we're headed.
One name for 30 is 'Oriole' and the hexagram statement is: Favorable augury. Offering. Auspicious for raising cows. (Rutt)
So I can imagine: the King asks how to deal with a plague, and a bright yellow bird crosses his path, and the diviner says this is sign: we can take this as a favorable omen (or augury)! And ... these vaccines are about getting us back to how we were before the pandemic struck, back to our jobs and lives, and activities - and 'auspicious for raising cows' reminds me of this.
Or something thereabouts! Best, D
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rosada
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Maybe "superficial" isn't the right word. Maybe "general" is more accurate as in "when you ask a broad question you get a more general answer." So how about 21.3 tells us that "In general, the Covid vaccine is a poison with minimal side effects and it's not a mistake to get it."? Anyway, I'm feeling more in agreement with your interpretation but what do you say to Hilary's comment that 21.3 means something doesn't have the effect you want and that there are better ways to get the desired results? Or is the vaccine an exception to this because while the vaccine is indeed a poison, in this case a poison is a good thing?
Is there someway 30 can be seen as meaning good health? It's made of the two fire trigrams, increased fire, life? Or "burns up the infection"? I like your idea that "care of the cattle" could indicate a return to work but I think that's a stretch. Maybe we are the cattle and the vaccine leads to Herd immunity...
Is there someway 30 can be seen as meaning good health? It's made of the two fire trigrams, increased fire, life? Or "burns up the infection"? I like your idea that "care of the cattle" could indicate a return to work but I think that's a stretch. Maybe we are the cattle and the vaccine leads to Herd immunity...
I gave this reading my best shot and I think it has validity - in that I can find ties between my interpretation and the words and images of the Yi (found in the reading).
**** ****
My intention is not to put Hilary down in any way; however, when I read "Poison to eat" (part of the line, Biting dried meat: getting poison to eat. Little distress. No misfortune) ....
... it very much felt like - and I could almost see it in my 'mind's eye', that this was describing how vaccines work or how I imagine they work. And that's what lead me to say what I did, including putting it together with the other parts of the reading (and in all honesty, with a bit of my own preconceived ideas about vaccines thrown in!).
But I didn't think (nor imagine), "hmm, to me, this means something doesn't have the effect you want and that there are better ways to get the desired results." That never really crossed my mind.
This is not to say that I think looking at other translation or commentaries or what others 'think' is bad; only that I usually like to find this meaning without these. Also - and I've said this before - sometimes looking at many translations, commentaries, etc. seems like 'hunt and peck' exercise, or popularity contest - that I am looking for the one translation or commentary that 'makes sense', or more often is the one that matches what I want the Yi to say, or that seems to put the best 'happy face' on the Yi's meaning.
Sorry for rambling a bit. D
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... it very much felt like - and I could almost see it in my 'mind's eye', that this was describing how vaccines work or how I imagine they work. And that's what lead me to say what I did, including putting it together with the other parts of the reading (and in all honesty, with a bit of my own preconceived ideas about vaccines thrown in!).
What you say above was my initial feeling of the reading too. But i have all often had this reading when the situation did involve real toxicity. But that doesn’t mean to say nothing positive comes out of these experiences - growth, clarity etc so though the vaccine is poison maybe something positive can come from it hence ‘no mistake‘
So... I am back to square one!
Maybe this is where our intuition should come in. We should let go of our own personal inclinations and biases and feel our way to the answer. And yes, this is where it can get tricky!! The ego can be a very cunning and subtle hindrance at the best of times
I would love to comment on Hilarys translation but i can’t get into wiki wing at the moment. There appears to be a temporary error
What you say above was my initial feeling of the reading too. But i have all often had this reading when the situation did involve real toxicity. But that doesn’t mean to say nothing positive comes out of these experiences - growth, clarity etc so though the vaccine is poison maybe something positive can come from it hence ‘no mistake‘
So... I am back to square one!
Maybe this is where our intuition should come in. We should let go of our own personal inclinations and biases and feel our way to the answer. And yes, this is where it can get tricky!! The ego can be a very cunning and subtle hindrance at the best of times
I would love to comment on Hilarys translation but i can’t get into wiki wing at the moment. There appears to be a temporary error
D
diamant
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Sadly the current vaccines do not offer immunity. Fingers crossed that any new ones will.
@Lettuce you, like me, also had toxic bullying experiences with 21.3 > 30. I notice how the whole 'vaccine' narrative at the moment is definitely one of bullying and harrassing, so I wonder if this is an element of the reading. People are looked down upon and pressurised if, for any reason, valid or not, do not want for now to take one of the existing covid vaccines.
To me, 30 as resulting means looking after oneself to overcome the poison of 21.3.
rosada
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diamant, you do realize my comment about herd immunity was an incredibly clever pun about the reference to cattle, right? Anyway, I do like your idea that the hexagram can mean looking after oneself - perhaps getting 30. Clarity as to what fuel the body is burning.
D
diamant
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@rosada yes I did get your pun, it was excellent 
Rosada, when I read your comment about 30's herd of cattle and 'the vaccine leads to Herd immunity' I thought, that's brilliant (and so Hex 30-ish)! Why didn't I think of that?
To be sure, the COVID vaccines are very much a part - and a part of the definition - of Herd (or community) immunity:
Herd Immunity = % of (A. number of people infected + B. number of people vaccinated). Or, herd immunity is reached or achieved when a certain percent of the population are either infected (and live), or are vaccinated, or both. That is the definition I have read a number of times, with the percent of people who are A+B being the variable: some say we'll reach COVID herd immunity at 65%, others say at 85-95% etc.
(It's important to note that the definitions of 'herd immunity' and 'immunity' are different.)
So, Hex. 30 means, the vaccines will - or will help - get us to Herd Immunity. Works for me! And I think that's an udder-ly brilliant idea!
Best, D
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redoleander
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One possibility for this is that universal masking and better cooperation/quarantine eradicated the virus in China, Vietnam, and New Zealand, and controlled small outbreaks exceptionally well. So much so that China waived it's early access to vaccines to give to worse off countries. The way it's been done here in the U.S., for example, is definitively not the best way. Relying largely on just the vaccine has been catastrophic in terms of death and long-term illness, economically, so many things. It's pretty clear it's not actually the best way to get the desired results, so that's one way it could relate. It seems like appreciating it for what it can do without overstating the outcome might be in the message there somewhere,
Just to throw a spammer in the works! Whenever i get this line there has always been an element of humiliation involved and in keeping with the text of the line, the querent wasn’t the one in the wrong, to blame, mistaken...
marybluesky
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It's like a small poison that makes you suffer a bit.
It's not harmful, but I doubt the I Ching finds it effective. Nothing indicates that.
It's not harmful, but I doubt the I Ching finds it effective. Nothing indicates that.
I'm unsure what you are getting to here:
Are you saying that this indicates that the Yi is saying this - that small poison makes you suffer a bit, but it is not harmful, but neither is it affective; or that the Yi is not saying this? (And therefore the vaccines may in fact be effective?)
D
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marybluesky
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Yes, I mean that
Regarding Hiliary's comment:
If so, that fits 21's IMAGE - Thunder and lightning: The image of BITING THROUGH. Thus the kings of former times made firm the laws through clearly defined penalties. (Wilhelm).
D
It seems that your interpretation (or your interpretation of Hilary's interpretation) is that we should not have just relied on the vaccines to fight/end COVID, but we would be better off right now if we had also acted like Vietnam and China (i.e. communist countries) and forced / demanded / required ... isolation, quarantines, mask-wearing, social distancing, and vaccinations. Is that about it?
If so, that fits 21's IMAGE - Thunder and lightning: The image of BITING THROUGH. Thus the kings of former times made firm the laws through clearly defined penalties. (Wilhelm).
D
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This is not at all true among my friends, nor in my community. The only instance I know of bullying is this:
A friend's granddaughter, Lori, decided to get vaccinated (her parents encouraged her to do this, but since she's over 18, the decision was hers). She planned to get vaccinated and then go on a camping trip with her boyfriend and his parents. Her boyfriend's mom - who is decidedly anti-vax - then told Lori that if she got vaccinated, she could not go on the trip with them.
I have no earthly idea why her boyfriend's mom would demand this, unless she has some odd idea that COVID vaccine creepy-crawlies will ooze out of Lori's skin, but it seems to me that she is just being manipulative.
Lori has decided to go on the trip and then get vaccinated, though we don't yet know if this is going to be acceptable to her boyfriend's mom - or if she's going to be subject to more manipulation.
And that's the only case of bullying that I know of.
It makes me think that this 'narrative' cuts both ways, or perhaps that this "narrative of bullying and harassing" - just like 'facts' about herd immunity - fall into the 'suspect-news' category.
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Two ideas:
The 'other' readings and situations are not this one - each situation is new and unique.
Maybe the 'real toxicity' here is the COVID virus - and the vaccine is what is fighting this toxicity. That seems to fit.
Best, D
Okay, so you mean the reading could go either way (it means this, or it doesn't mean this), or perhaps that you or we don't know what the Yi is saying.
Got it.
I feel this statement is wrong, or at minimum is misleading. I checked with a friend who is a retired nurse, and she confirmed: COVID vaccines (and many, or all other vaccines) act in a similar way - they prepare our immune systems to fight a virus. by producing immunity-boosting white blood cells, and other things. Then when we are actually expose to a virus - our immune system kicks into gear, and it does not let the virus 'catch hold', nor thrive - nor spread further.
But if by 'immunity' you mean some sort of Star Trek-like force field, or that it's like a can of Raid, which "Kills Viruses Dead", then yes, you are right - but that's not how vaccines, nor immunity works.
Best, D
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IrfanK
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Ha. I was just reading some little bubble of media outrage in the Indonesian papers about an employer (not a very large one) who posted some job vacancies with a notice saying that he wouldn't accept any applicant who had been vaccinated, because he didn't want to deal with them getting sick and dying over the next few months. Personally, I appreciated the fact that he included the notice. I have a feeling that it's a fair warning that he would be an absolute arsehole to work for in every possible area. It's better to be aware of that before you apply for the job. It doesn't seem like he's actually broken any laws, but I think he's going to get firmly smacked down regardless. He's a foreigner, making loud and nasty comments about Indonesia's national vaccination program. I think they'll find a way of making his life difficult for him regardless.
D
diamant
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Many nurses in London are anti-lockdown and anti-mask. Does that make them right, just because they're nurses? Of course not.
i found these two commentaries very interesting. Though i would love to take this reading as a positive response to the vaccine, the more I delve the more it appears to be an ominous line:
Confucius/Legge: She meets with what is disagreeable and hurtful -- her position is not the proper one for her. Wilhelm/Baynes: The place is not the appropriate one. Blofeld: His being poisoned is indicated by the unsuitable position of this line. Ritsema/Karcher: Situation not appropriate indeed. Wu: His position is improper.
Legge: Line three is magnetic in a dynamic place. Her action will be ineffective, and is symbolized by gnawing through tough meat only to taste something rancid. Since punishment is the rule in this hexagram, the auspice is not all bad.
The position of the line is not appropriate. Not a positive auspice. At least i haven’t died from taking the vaccine though!
Confucius/Legge: She meets with what is disagreeable and hurtful -- her position is not the proper one for her. Wilhelm/Baynes: The place is not the appropriate one. Blofeld: His being poisoned is indicated by the unsuitable position of this line. Ritsema/Karcher: Situation not appropriate indeed. Wu: His position is improper.
Legge: Line three is magnetic in a dynamic place. Her action will be ineffective, and is symbolized by gnawing through tough meat only to taste something rancid. Since punishment is the rule in this hexagram, the auspice is not all bad.
The position of the line is not appropriate. Not a positive auspice. At least i haven’t died from taking the vaccine though!
IrfanK
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Ah well. Sometimes it takes a bit of time to kill you.
well the reading suggests i won’t!
D
diamant
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@Lettuce the position is 'inappropriate' because this position is for a masculine line - but here, instead, we have a feminine line.
"A lenient enforcer unable to apply the strict penal code deals with a repeat offender."
"Line 3 (...) is an ambitious but inept speculator in the time of great strife."
(Tuck Chang)
"A lenient enforcer unable to apply the strict penal code deals with a repeat offender."
"Line 3 (...) is an ambitious but inept speculator in the time of great strife."
(Tuck Chang)
And this proves? As far as I can tell, it's only saying that some nurses don't like masks nor 'lock-downs', but it is saying nothing about what they know or feel about immunity, herd immunity, or the COVID vaccines. And I think it also 'proves' that just because you have your beliefs about what immunity is, or what the COVID vaccines are - or how they work - that doesn't make you right either.
What I shared was what I feel is true. To clarify, I did research and then checked with my friend to confirm that my understanding is on track.
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Irfan, are you saying that you’re interpretation of this reading is that COVID-19 vaccines will kill us? (But they will do it slowly.)
I take what you said to mean that perhaps ... “this 'narrative' cuts both ways, or perhaps that this "narrative of bullying and harassing" - fall into the 'suspect-news category.”
Consider, what if this employer had posted, “people who have had any kind of vaccination need not apply.” Or, “gay men need not apply, because I don’t want to have to deal with them dying of AIDS in six months.”
In both of these cases, I don’t think any ‘narrative of bullying and harassment’ opposing what he says would be inappropriate.
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