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Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings - Hexagram 11

Trojina

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I've the impression from what I've seen over the years in SR that hex 11 unchanging can be bit of a roller coaster ride. I'm not sure in truth how much evidence there is for that, a few threads have stuck in my mind like this one http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=14122 (which also has info on 22 uc)

I can't recall any particular experience with it myself.
 

hilary

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This was the one that originally gave me the idea that unchanging hexagrams could be weird - and especially the ones with strong driving energy.

Examples...

  • reading for the day: mother had a (non-fatal) heart attack.
  • will there be war with Iraq? (shortly before there was)
  • Also three emotionally fraught requests for predictions, where the outcome was a non-event. A lot of painful suspense, and then the problem/ drama not materialising after all.
The impression I get from all these is that 'small goes, great comes' means that your focus shifts from small issues to big ones.
 

bradford

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It was a big mistake for Wilhelm to name 11 "Peace"
A better name might be "Engage," with Picard's accent
Maybe equilibrium, but, more often than not, dynamic.
 

meng

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'Peace' never quite scratched that 11 itch for me either, although it's easy to see how that word became associated. There are so many great metaphors that can spring from 11, and I see that as being the primary point. Nowhere is that learned better than in a garden. Getting those holy hands into the dirt and mixing it up. Or seeing an enhancement in the production of something, as a result of something I did. The inspiration from heaven comes from below, or literally heaven inside the earth; so there's not the exuberance of 16, but the creative power can do some amazing things, with a little ingenuity and work from a human.
 

hilary

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It was a big mistake for Wilhelm to name 11 "Peace"
A better name might be "Engage," with Picard's accent
Maybe equilibrium, but, more often than not, dynamic.
And now I want the Star Trek I Ching. Maybe that could be our next project... or has it already been done?
'Peace' never quite scratched that 11 itch for me either, although it's easy to see how that word became associated. There are so many great metaphors that can spring from 11, and I see that as being the primary point. Nowhere is that learned better than in a garden. Getting those holy hands into the dirt and mixing it up. Or seeing an enhancement in the production of something, as a result of something I did. The inspiration from heaven comes from below, or literally heaven inside the earth; so there's not the exuberance of 16, but the creative power can do some amazing things, with a little ingenuity and work from a human.
Yes, gardening's good, for 11. Though it also brings to mind the bindweed that showed up in the conservatory, having made its way under the concrete path and up through the foundations. Made me wonder exactly what I thought I was achieving, trying to eradicate the stuff.
 

elias

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"Engage!" Yes, much more dynamic, if only because simple static being as implied by "Peace" is foreign to yi.

Personally, 11 was my first real encounter with IC speaking to me in physical terms. I realized that when in 11, my breathing has a very distinctive quality.
 

Trojina

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Though it also brings to mind the bindweed that showed up in the conservatory, having made its way under the concrete path and up through the foundations. Made me wonder exactly what I thought I was achieving, trying to eradicate the stuff.


Today I heard someone talking about flow, explaining why those who open up psychically in mediumship etc also need to turn the flow off....and explaining this was not so much because there were such bad things to fear but that if you left anything open, flowing, there may be a point you need to turn it off, ...and he was giving examples of leaving your bath tap on, leaving your car engine running all the time with doors open leaving all your house doors open and so on and so on so I was thinking hex 11 flow/hex 12 stop, and with the bindweed example I wondered if hex 11 unchanging might be an unstoppable flow of life like bindweed and that's similar to how people's experience of hex 11 unchanging can be a bit of a 'runaway' experience taking them places they had never expected. This paragraph also I notice has no punctuation it's just rolling on and on. Thinking of hex 11 unchanging this way helps me to think better about how 12uc might be understood...yes i'm wonderingif hex 11 unchanging might be the sense of unstoppable flow which may be experienced in all sorts of ways and take you all sorts of places you'd never expect life to take you like bindweed that will not stop for anything anywhere...
 

yamabushi

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This was the one that originally gave me the idea that unchanging hexagrams could be weird - and especially the ones with strong driving energy.

Examples...

  • reading for the day: mother had a (non-fatal) heart attack.
  • will there be war with Iraq? (shortly before there was)
  • Also three emotionally fraught requests for predictions, where the outcome was a non-event. A lot of painful suspense, and then the problem/ drama not materialising after all.
The impression I get from all these is that 'small goes, great comes' means that your focus shifts from small issues to big ones.


Just one quick comment :)
Maybe you got h 11 uc for question about war in Iraq, Yi answered you; for you there will be peace!
 
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meng

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I don't know if small and great necessarily carry the connotation of lesser or greater importance. When something comes into summer, it comes into greatness, it flourishes. When it goes into autumn, it goes into hibernation for winter. But summer is no more important than winter. I think this is where we can project our superego, and Yi's answer takes on a moralistic, virtuous, sagely character, etc. I'm not saying it isn't there, I'm saying it's already here.
 

rodaki

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hmmm, 'peace' or 'engage' or 'heaven on earth' brings this to mind ( to my mind at least!lol)




p.s.: Elias, check this out for the connection between 11 and lungs (I have posted this before but can't find the thread now)
 

Trojina

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Experiences with hexagram 11 unchanging shared here so far (see Hilary's for example) certainly don't seem to have easy restful peacefulness as their lived reality ! Those are ideas about hexagram 11 perhaps based on the misleading naming of the hexagram as Brad said and our associations with the word 'peace'.
 

rodaki

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Naah, T, I don't think that our ideas about hexagrams are that theoretical after a fair amount of working with Yi. From a point onwards, these ideas become a cluster of experiences, previous thoughts, feelings, our more personal 'sense' of what the hexagram stands for - that's the main reason, imo, why Brad's linguistic note makes so much sense; if it wasn't supported by our private meanings, it would just be another theoretical observation ;)
 

Trojina

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Wondering if anyone has any more actual experiences of hexagram 11 unchanging to share ? Doesn't matter what they are...they don't have to fit with what hexagram 11 is meant to be about becasue it seems to me our experience especially with unchanging hexagram doesn't always conform to what the words say in the books :D
 

Trojina

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Naah, T, I don't think that our ideas about hexagrams are that theoretical after a fair amount of working with Yi. From a point onwards, these ideas become a cluster of experiences, previous thoughts, feelings, our more personal 'sense' of what the hexagram stands for - that's the main reason, imo, why Brad's linguistic note makes so much sense; if it wasn't supported by our private meanings, it would just be another theoretical observation ;)

ooops yes crossed posts .....have you got any particular experiences with 11uc you can remember BTW ? I haven't and I think it's because I've often dismissed it as an answer. Not deliberately but I think it's just it's been so far from my ideas of hexagram 11 it just didn't compute and brain erased the answer....or something

Yes ideas and experience are absolutely enmeshed but OTOH I see alot of times in my own consultations and other people's where actually. particularly with unchanging castings, the experience as lived and known subjectively is a very long way from all usual associations etc.
 

rodaki

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I have often received 11 unch. especially the past 3-4 months, but, to be honest, none of them made an impression strong enough on me to stay with me as good example . . None of them was talking about an easy-peasy time, but the words I have associated the hx with, is 'make it work' and 'chop wood, carry water' . .
 

meng

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I don't think that our ideas about hexagrams are that theoretical after a fair amount of working with Yi. From a point onwards, these ideas become a cluster of experiences, previous thoughts, feelings, our more personal 'sense' of what the hexagram stands for ...

I've experienced that happening in waves: subjective~objective~feeling~thinking. A wave can be in an instant to a lifetime.

The thing here, to me, is that these are uniquely polar primary and opposite trigrams, not just different, like other hexagrams. The word "dynamic" works great for me, in this movement of opposites, particularly in regard to their relative position to one another. When it has reached stillness, an eclipse, or the appearance of stillness anyway - they continue on until separation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2hu2EwCm-k
 

rodaki

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yes, I'd agree it is a wave - same as breathing: inhale-exhale . . Or same as the moon, emptying and becoming full

Not sure if the comment was directed at me, but here's what I think about it: I think that, when 11 is happening, apparent stillness does not really undo it - stillness in one place probably means there's activity in a different space of the same situation, that's why 'make it work' is a good way for me to understand it; things are in a working state and if they seem otherwise,it doesn't mean the energy isn't there. It's like 42 in that sense, it doesn't guarantee riches but it shows how time favors enhancements . .



p.s.: and two irrelevant-relevant things here, a) is it me, or is there a dog onstage with Elton John in that clip? (see video time 3:55)

and b) I kid you not, there was yet another Elton John song playing on the radio while reading this last post
 

meng

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My head's still fuzzy from a bug, and I'm not conveying my thoughts very clearly lately.

First, hiya Dora. :)

No stillness in 11, but an appearance of stillness at a certain point, accompanied with a sense of complacency or of panic, such as a primitive mind would interpret an eclipse. "The sun turned black and has stood still in the sky!"

It's hard for me to think of 11 without thinking of 12, and vice verse. I see the heaven/earth trigrams in movement as the essence of energy and life.

In theory, heaven moves upward while earth moves downward (gravity). When heaven is below earth, heaven moves up while earth settles down = union, intercourse, exchange, dynamics, etc.

If one images those 3 yang lines as rising upward through the 3 open yin lines, the sequence would be: 11, 32, 31, 12 - as though the creative process unwinds again or relaxes. It is the point when 11 reaches 12 that things appear to stand still, hence I think Wilhelm's Standstill can still be accurate, even though energy is not still unless shut off. Here, it isn't shut off, it's just departing.
 

rodaki

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heya Bruce :)

I know what u mean about expressing yourself, I feel like that a lot lately - and I don't even have a flu :eek: (. . well, maybe just a recent full moon that has messed me up pretty good)

I like the movement of yang&yin lines you describe, from 11 to 12 and I really like the idea but I'm struggling to feel it out as it stands - it works great as a visual, but in terms of experience, 11 & 12 are too far apart for me, like the two edges of a long line of changes; like saying the moon is full/ the moon is empty, (totally ON and totally NO is something else that comes to mind) and the eclipse, I guess then, it'd be that passing shadow in between . .
 

li chien

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When I first came across this thread the other day I checked the logs and I hadn't ever cast 11 UC.

But just the very next day (Sunday) a friend was saying to me how he was having trouble sorting out some travelling plans for his parents.

I asked if he wanted to cast the Yi and see what might be suggested and I would help him with interpreting as best I could given I think I'm only up to 950 casts and still very much have my leaner's plates on.

He had planned to buy his parents a holiday to New Zealand for his mum's 60th birthday (good son) but there had suddenly become quite a bit of pull back on this idea with a bit of sudden, subtle resistance from both his mum and his dad about the whole idea of the overseas trip... and there seemed to be some distancing separately by both his parents on it like there was some unspoken tension between them over it. This is a couple that rarely go their separate ways on anything either physically or ideologically.

His parents have not long bought a caravan and have taken to holidaying around Australia in it. His dad was apparently more keen to use the time to drive all the way up to the northern Territory through Alice Springs... huuuuge trip and very hot. His mum really doesn't cope with heat at all. At the same time I know his mum is very supportive of what her husband wants usually and at the same time he is a really nice bloke and equally caring for her and is aware the trip might be a struggle.

The question was 'Outcome of buying the parents a trip to New Zealand'... guess what was cast... 11UC. Once I got over my oooooh that's freakish moment, the thing that initially struck me was the separating heaven and earth really representing the separating father and mother.

Also the father (Heaven) was clearly heading north (Alice Springs) and the mother (Earth) was likely trying to stay south (cooler climates)... that the heaven has heat as well as indicative of the father's desire to act out like the Sun and go where he wanted (North) and at the same time his caring side will also act out the Earth trigram internally as he feels the gravitational pull to also give his wife what she is also wanting/needing.

Similarly the mother (Earth) is acting out her Moon function trying to nurture herself but also has some internal conflict with this as she see's her part in acting out her own Sun as well (it is her birthday) and maybe also her traditional responsibilities (coming from a generation where the wife acts to clearly support the husband) to be supportive of the male's needs perhaps in some ways in deference to her own.

It also rang a bell about the earth liking to be the good mare and it's role to follow the stallion... I don't think I'd be mentioning to his dad about being a bit of a stallion tho.

So the separating Heaven and Earth in this cast seemed to not only represent the separating needs of the parents as individuals in the relationship but also their own internal struggles within each to be both themselves (Sun Heaven) and live out their heroic journeys and then also be good nurturing dte practical partners (Moon Earth).

To cap it all off, I also read the astro chart for the casting time of the Yi (1.16pm 27/1/13 Newcastle NSW) and it was on the full moon... the Sun and Moon were within a degree of an exact opposition both sitting smack on the MC angles (the traditional cusp angles of the houses of the mother and father) both square Saturn on the descendant (the house of marriage relationship). Planets on any angles are important but here it was like the pure expression of Mother and Father and also square (in tension) to the Ascendant/Descendant where we express our at times opposing needs for ourselves and for those of our partners. Funnily it was the last degree of a closing opposition rather than the separating opposition which it was just about to become one degree later... nearly the trifecta.

Given the astro horary which i won't get bogged down in we talked about my friend's role helping them looking for a middle ground and staying a bit diplomatic but straightforward and practical and maybe even letting go of the whole idea if it looks unresolvable and certainly giving it some time and to separate himself a bit from it and that the whole overseas trip might not work out and if it proceeded they might travel together but but not be together on the trip... and as Saturn was on the descendant I also very much limited the scope of my delineation given certain strictures against judgement.

There was much more discussed about both the hexagram and the chart which I wont go in to but what really struck me with this cast of hex 11 was the way the heaven and earth acted out as literally the two individuals as father as male and mother as female and also their roles of father as husband and mother as wife.... and also here that with the separating that sometimes it can also happen on this level with us as individuals balancing internally or separating internally to keep the partnerships together rather than allow for an external separation. I figure I will probably look at Hex 12 in a different light now also.

Also fascinating for me is how strongly Yi casting and astrological horary overlap... I read Yi casts also as horary charts now for most questions these days and it builds resolution and context for me (as Astrology is the more familiar language for me) but also helps me to a better understand Yi through this.

Graham
 
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tuckchang

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It is funny; in my opinion, the text of hex 11 is contrary to what you described.
Text: The small one has gone and the big one come, (which is of) auspiciousness (and) smooth progress. ‘The small one has gone and the big one come’ means that the hexagram changes from 12 to 11.
In hex 11, the trigram Chien and Kun are engaging with each other in a smooth, unobstructed, harmonious and peaceful state, which is the advice of Yi to the question: outcome of buying the parents a trip to New Zealand, and logically speaking which quite fits to a solution (i.e. a compromise) for their disagreement on each other (I believe that which you described is their current state). Of course, it is only the advice, whether or how to do (i.e. a right approach) is still up to person.
But please note, Hex 11 is an ongoing state, not the end result (such as the outcome after their trip). If it is also of interest, another divination must be made.

What I intend to say: The phenomenon created by the images of a hexagram might vary from person to person, from time to time, …., if there is no rule of the game. Although the text of Yi is also derived from the phenomenon (based on the definition of Yi’s writer), it is written according a certain principle, philosophy, and …. .

Regards
Tuck
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li chien

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Tuck,

100 times thankyou... The horary strictures of having Saturn on the descendant when the Yi was cast is that the astrologer can make a mistake and he did... a real shocker... I read for Hex 12UC. Just terrible.

Will now go to my friend and explain... Thankfully it is indeed a good friend and I did warn them beforehand that I very much had my L plates on with Yi and that the horary chart had strictures of judgement against it. Usually when I see that Saturn on the descendant I really check out for mistakes and invalid charts but just missed the most obvious bit... the number of the Hex itself.

Anyway, thankyou again for pointing out the mistake, it now gives me a chance to go in and make it good... Shocker ::duh:... With much gratitude.

Best wishes
Graham
 

fallada

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Experiences:
· Not getting pregnant for no reason - later she learnd he was married.
· Stopping tumor from growing by surgery, turned out to be not malicious.
· An unsconsumed marriage/relationship – no sex.
· Spiritual initiation desaster turning out as heavens protecting wisdom.
· Trapped in a humiliating working situation. Burnout,couldnt get worse. 11.0. Two years later same job, new people in charge: big promotion, greatest work and money ever.
· A few more that won’t fit into a one liner

Personal take on 11.0:
With 11.0 the reign of hex 12 is in its declining stages and the only way events can take now, is the way out of hex 12, no matter how un-11-ish this looks or feels. This includes hitting the (Muye) ground and remaining stuck there for a while. This while can take on frustrating and even cruel dimensions.

When heaven and earth face each other, waiting and ready to intertwine but nothing happens, nothing manifests and promising situations go nowhere, then the stagnant situation is due to a protective barrier. Usually against my effort in blindly progressing back into troubles and other dead ends. Again: The only direction open is the path out.

I have no influence on the situation in 11.0 and do understand neither its context nor the implications of my actions. I cannot see how ‚such‘ events possibly fit into the grandeur of hex 11. On the surface 11.0 and hex 12 are identical twins and during the process I cannot understand which is which. I can do nothing and –lucky enough - I also can do nothing wrong. (core hex 54) So, the „chopping wood and cooking rice“ is a sound approach.

11.0 may also reflect my indignant conviction over the fact that expansion stopped prematurely, promising situations went nowhere, nothing flourishes, nothing creates itself, where there should be – at least I think so – growth and blissfull development. In return the oracle hints at the prerequisites (testimonials?) for heaven on earth: The right people in charge (mandate), open communication channels, observance of spiritual obligations …. else the unfolding of hex 11 goes into the waiting loop until time sweeps away the old regime.

I do not remember a single 11.0 that turned out as an easy or pleasent time.
 

tuckchang

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What shall we say? Change the coins?
Or, such a bad luck, even Yi won’t tell the truth.

Yi lies still there. People are the one who practices divination.
The accuracy of divination (i.e. how to get a right hexagram or line to the question) is that which people always try to pursue.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 

Trojina

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I noticed while reading and writing in these threads on hex 11 unchanging and hex 12 unchanging how they are so enmeshed/intertwined it's quite easy to mistake one for the other as Graham did....and I'm finding in my own thoughts I now cannot think of one without thinking of the other. This has probably always been totally obvious on an intellectual level but I certainly haven't been so aware of it before.

I wonder if unchanging hexagrams are particulary reflective of/interactive with their pair when we perceive them directly via our own experiences.
 

rodaki

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I noticed while reading and writing in these threads on hex 11 unchanging and hex 12 unchanging how they are so enmeshed/intertwined it's quite easy to mistake one for the other as Graham did....and I'm finding in my own thoughts I now cannot think of one without thinking of the other.


not true for everyone ;)
 

Trojina

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:confused: not sure what you mean...I'm just speaking of my own perception that hex 11 makes more sense to me when I also am aware of hex 12 and vice versa....that's all. Oh and i suppose when we get in the midst of living through a hex 11 or hex 12 time we will clealry be aware of them both running through the situation....because actually neither of them makes much sense without the other. So when one is translating an answer into what happened to you you can see both ......it's only clearly delineated on paper, soon as those hexagrams get into the world they do their own thing and go 3d or even 4d
 
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rodaki

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I noticed while reading and writing in these threads on hex 11 unchanging and hex 12 unchanging how they are so enmeshed/intertwined it's quite easy to mistake one for the other as Graham did....and I'm finding in my own thoughts I now cannot think of one without thinking of the other. This has probably always been totally obvious on an intellectual level but I certainly haven't been so aware of it before.

I wonder if unchanging hexagrams are particulary reflective of/interactive with their pair when we perceive them directly via our own experiences.

The underlined that followed gives the impression of trying to come up with a more general view of what happens with unchanging hexagrams, (or that's what it looks like to me, at least)
. . Actually I was thinking about this today, how it is a narrow road with these threads, right between exploration and shared readings - it's interesting to see how they might change the 'landscape' so to speak, or create discussions like the ones we've had here, about what is personal understanding and what common rule . .
(I didn't have any mean intentions btw by posting it, just pointing something out)
 

rodaki

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:confused: not sure what you mean...I'm just speaking of my own perception that hex 11 makes more sense to me when I also am aware of hex 12 and vice versa....that's all. Oh and i suppose when we get in the midst of living through a hex 11 or hex 12 time we will clealry be aware of them both running through the situation....because actually neither of them makes much sense without the other. So when one is translating an answer into what happened to you you can see both ......it's only clearly delineated on paper, soon as those hexagrams get into the world they do their own thing and go 3d or even 4d


Again, that's not always the case . . I very rarely measure them up like that. It might be 'obvious' for some of us but it doesn't work like that for everyone, or in every case ( I mean not everyone understands or perceives those hexagrams together, or in terms of antithesis . .)
 

Trojina

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The underlined that followed gives the impression of trying to come up with a more general view of what happens with unchanging hexagrams, (or that's what it looks like to me, at least)
. . Actually I was thinking about this today, how it is a narrow road with these threads, right between exploration and shared readings - it's interesting to see how they might change the 'landscape' so to speak, or create discussions like the ones we've had here, about what is personal understanding and what common rule . .
(I didn't have any mean intentions btw by posting it, just pointing something out)

I said I wondered if unchanging hexagrams especially reflected their pair in our experience of them. Thats my personal cogitation I am sharing not rule making, I mean thats the point of these threads as begun here by Arabella....it's explained there I think what the aim is.

We all know there is actually no 'common rule' for unchanging hexagrams as far as the I ching goes don't we ?

In sharing experiences I don't see that anyone is making a 'common rule'.....quite the reverse, they are just saying how it felt to them. If others then speculate on patterns this might make then that is not 'rule making' IMO er its just sharing thoughts.

Re the landscape well yes SR and this section have been very separate kingdoms. We have a wealth of experiences in SR of how people live their answers and here in Ex Divination we have a wealth of knowledge, theory, philosophy speculation etc etc. If there is a overlap of the 2 kingdoms that would seem a good thing to me.

But perhaps if you don't agree you might start a new thread about it as it might be a long discussion ? I don't know.
 

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