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Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings-Hexagram 37

Trojina

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I concluded that the reading was trying to say two things at once, but I actually don't know if that's even something Yi does. (Which of course is not a matter for this thread either...)

Oh I think it can say 7 things at once...or more. It is pretty clever you know....

In Harry Potter there is a goblin who picks up socks and when Yi is used to find things I always think of the down trodden goblin

What I am finding funny is we have several pages now in the 37uc thread about a washing machine or tumble dryer :rofl: dryer imagery anyway.

All we need now are a few vacuum cleaner readings.
 

Trojina

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Ah it is not a goblin but a house elf I am thinking of. You see sometimes when people use Yi to find things I think of Dobby as Yi and Yi is much too dignified to be Dobby.

As a house elf Dobby deserves a place in this thread

[video=youtube;C5vZVZloySU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=C5vZVZloySU#t=25[/video]
 

Liselle

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Oh I think it can say 7 things at once...or more.
Okay, whew!

What I am finding funny is we have several pages now in the 37uc thread about a washing machine or tumble dryer
I think in the future I'll post readings in threads like this only if I've pretty much worked them out already. You know, once they're actually proper examples :D. We didn't know in the beginning what this would grow into, but as it turned out it would have been better as a thread in Shared Readings. Then IF it would have turned out to be illuminating of 37uc, it could have been linked here.
 

Trojina

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Oh I don't know Yi clearly sees the heart of the home as the washing machine and led you to this thread.

There is something soothing about the sound of clothes washing. I have always found it soothing. The world may be falling apart but the washing is making comforting sounds as it goes around. Apparently, and I may have said this before, we have some radio station in UK that only plays the sound of vacuum cleaners and washing machines because many people seem to find it soothing.

I suppose in the old days they had other household sounds to soothe.....like the fire crackling

What I was artlessly trying to get at is that you flat-out said you find lost item readings "completely meaningless," and as far as I can tell you rarely make that sort of blanket statement.

Well I don't like to think of Yi as Dobby. But yes it was too much of a blanket statement really.
 

Liselle

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[ETA: Crossed posts, if this now sounds odd.]

As a house elf Dobby deserves a place in this thread

This is the PERFECT place for Dobby! :D

Yi is much too dignified to be Dobby
Well, if Dobby is what you think of, then that is abundantly true. :eek:

(Prolonging this argument...) But is Dobby a reasonable comparison? I mean, I know there's a school of thought which says we should never ask Yi about ordinary mundane things. There are also schools of thought which say you should go through an entire ritual with incense and the like when consulting, or that Yi should properly be consulted roughly once every two years. And so forth. And, I mean, I do ask Yi the big, deep, questions. But I also ask a lot about things like shopping for the now-infamous washing machine (when it cleverly gave me 29uc to indicate Whirlpool).

So where is the line drawn? That is largely where I got the "arbitrary and capricious" thing from. Yi will helpfully answer this question, about shopping, but not that question, about misplaced keys? I've gone on about this before, but how can we ever trust it in that case?
 

Trojina

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(Prolonging this argument...) But is Dobby a reasonable comparison? I mean, I know there's a school of thought which says we should never ask Yi about ordinary mundane things. There are also schools of thought which say you should go through an entire ritual with incense and the like when consulting, or that Yi should properly be consulted roughly once every two years. And so forth.

No Dobby isn't a reasonable comparision, Dobby is my exaggerated imaginative depiction of Yi at the extreme of slavery...I'm not being entirely serious here. And luckily Yi isn't Dobby. I don't think it's down to schools of thought, afterall what do they know :rolleyes: but personal predilection I suppose. Maybe your relationship with Yi is really different to mine. I think it is. Neither is better.



And, I mean, I do ask Yi the big, deep, questions. But I also ask a lot about things like shopping for the now-infamous washing machine (when it cleverly gave me 29uc to indicate Whirlpool).


:rofl: you see. Yi and me just don't talk that way....we talk different to that. I might ask about important purchases but have half an ear open for messages behind that. It probably wouldn't occur to me to see 29 as whirlpool washing machine. I think your relationship with Yi is very personal...I mean I feel you have a very personally well developed relationship with Yi where you have your own language together. A person will never have exactly the same relationship with a person that anyone else would.
wow...that was a bad sentence....
I mean for example I may know Jane and you may know Jane but we have a very different relationship with her.

So where is the line drawn? That is largely where I got the "arbitrary and capricious" thing from. Yi will helpfully answer this question, about shopping, but not that question, about misplaced keys? I've gone on about this before, but how can we ever trust it in that case?

It's not about drawing lines or rules it's down to a person's own individual understanding. For myself I'd say I intuit, I feel, when an answer has not quite answered the question I put, or when my question has been evaded somewhat. Intuiting this cannot be learned by any book of rules, it develops in each person naturally. I do not regard Yi as my servant who must answer my questions. I ask and then I listen to feel if I have been answered. I feel I am being answered by something greater than me and that ultimately all answers are for the purpose of growth and understanding. You get 29 for your washing machine which is great because you feel you are connected to an intelligence that answers. That is part of your individual relationship with it.

I think we are well off topic now so maybe we should keep these discussions for other threads although I have said my own POV so often even I'm bored with hearing it. :rolleyes:
 

knotxx

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Hilary does not remind us to go and read commentaries. She suggests looking at the text, the translation of Yi, but not commentaries. I can honestly say I have never heard Hilary tell anyone to go and read a commentary
.

Quite right, and I'm sorry I wrote that so awkwardly. Hilary says read the text; I say read a commentary as well, whichever one is to hand, and for a somewhat different reason: I think you can get a synchronistic spark off of commentaries, the same way you could if you put yourself in the right mood and looked out the window.

(I remember once during a group call, I think the one about opening the space, Hilary asked me (or maybe all of us?) to hold a question thoughtfully and then go look out the window and say what we saw. I saw a garden full of dead stuff. She said, Anything else to say about that? I said: well it's winter, it's supposed to be dead, but it will come alive later. And that was SUCH a perfect answer to my question, it was hilarious.)

Anyway so similarly, just some random phrase in a commentary can spark a thought like "oh the WASTEBASKET," which in my opinion is why yi pointed me to that 25.4 line, more than anything helpful in the text "there can be constancy, no regrets."

But that part is me! Hilary just reminds us to return to the text.

I ask yi about all kinds of mundane stuff. Sometimes it's quite helpful; other times--just as when I ask about Great Life Changing Matters--the answer is more like "don't even go there right now" or "just calm down" or "way to blow that self-confidence you've been building, with a question like that."

You know where yi has almost never failed me? About outfits for important events! It seems to know that I am a complete idiot about dressing self and will give me quite clear NO NO 12uc or YES THAT ONE 35.3! kinds of readings. Which I much appreciate.

Agree 1000% that we all develop a private language with the yi. It's lovely that way.
 

Liselle

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For myself I'd say I intuit, I feel, when an answer has not quite answered the question I put, or when my question has been evaded somewhat. Intuiting this cannot be learned by any book of rules, it develops in each person naturally.

One last thing...thank you for saying this. When I asked how we could trust the I Ching (if it arbitrarily (my word) decides to answer certain questions but not others, which it might not even do) what is closer to what I meant is does it play fair? I am much less worried about Yi not quite answering the question I put to it, if there's a fair chance that I'll know that's what it's doing. You're saying yes, you have developed an intuition about it. And I do know what you mean (despite that right now I feel quite mixed up about a lot of things :blush:).
 

Trojina

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One last thing...thank you for saying this. When I asked how we could trust the I Ching, if it arbitrarily (my word) decides to answer certain questions but not others, what is closer to what I meant is does it play fair? I am much less worried about Yi not quite answering the question I put to it, if there's a fair chance that I'll know that's what it's doing. You're saying yes, you have developed an intuition about it. And I do know what you mean.

How can it not 'play fair' if it answers from the highest source ? Often I will ask one question but as I contemplate the answer I'll see Yi has approached it from another angle that addresses the real issue or the angle I had not seen.

Compare this to asking a person directions. Suppose I ask someone directions to a football match (highly unlikely) but they know the game is off due to rain. Would that person be most helpful if they just answered my exact question "what is the way to the football ground ?" If they just said 'take a left and then a right' and so on but omitted to mention the game was cancelled. Or would they be more helpful if they said "actually the game has been cancelled today". In that case I think they would be most unhelpful if they stuck to our question and omitted to mention the game was off !

Many insist in SR for example, that Yi only answer the question put ! As if they were in control and Yi could not deviate beyond their question. That would be like insisting the person only tell you where the match is and not telling you it's been cancelled.

I am much less worried about Yi not quite answering the question I put to it, if there's a fair chance that I'll know that's what it's doing. You're saying yes, you have developed an intuition about it. And I do know what you mean

Well it's a work in progress and many times I do not fully understand what Yi is saying to me. I accept that quite easily. Sometimes I quite like answers I don't understand. Gradually over time I've picked up more of how it answers me and others. I've noticed often questions such as

what if I do a
what if I do b

are often completely over ridden by Yi saying what you will do anyway and those neat little question pairs are rendered obsolete. I often find my questions rendered obsolete in the light of the answer. But that may not be true for you or anyone else.

Trouble is I think you are trying to pin down understanding in a way that it cannot be. Yi is a great mystery isn't it ? Occasionally it can be read clearly like a road map...other times it's more like straining to hear fragments of music on the wind, waiting for them to blow into your ears and mind. I don't know how my own experience of Yi can make you worried, surely you must trust your own experience most ?

I don't really get your idea of 'playing fair'. There will be times we don't understand because we can't yet. That doesn't mean it's not fair it just means our understanding cannot reach far enough. We all know our understanding does not reach far enough don't we that's why we spend so long on this forum isn't it ?

Anyway we are way off topic. Let's go back to 37uc and housework :D
 

Liselle

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All I meant was that when you said you can often intuit when something else is going on in the reading other than a direct answer, and therefore you know to take a step back and try to figure out what you're really being told, I recognized that that is true - you (meaning people) can often tell. I can too, but somehow that had not occurred to me during a lot of this discussion :rolleyes:. I felt relieved when I read that. Like, "...oh, right:duh:." That's all.
 

knotxx

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Occasionally it can be read clearly like a road map...other times it's more like straining to hear fragments of music on the wind, waiting for them to blow into your ears and mind.

That's lovely.
 

anemos

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Anyway we are way off topic. Let's go back to 37uc and housework :D

Catching up and once again ,imo, the off topic parts have a flavor of the hex we discuss. Such an interesting thread- the on topic and off aswell. :)
 

iams girl

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How would things be if I stayed in a relationship (60.1.6>59) vs. if I left (37uc)?

I tried the staying and working things out path including counseling as long as I could. When that clearly failed, 37uc family in a literal sense, which had always been a comforting thought, turned out best.

Where could there possibly be hope (37uc again)?

When attempts to reconcile were not going anywhere, I took it to mean just give it up already and stay with family, again 37uc in a literal sense.
 

rosada

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Maybe "a woman's constancy is fruitful" was the I Ching's way of guiding you to retrace your steps.
 

Liselle

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Maybe...I don't know, though. I'd already done that a couple times. The keys weren't in plain sight, and they weren't where I left them - they'd fallen inside.

To this day I have no actual recollection of putting them on the edge of the darn washer, lol.
 

Liselle

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I mean, of course eventually I did find them by retracing my steps, sort of. They hadn't magically transported themselves to some room I'd never gone in. So "constancy" certainly did have something to do with it. But the important thing was to actually look inside the washing machine, and I have no idea what caused me to do that.

Yi probably knew that would happen. I do believe that it knows the future. So it knew I'd find them, and in the meantime decided we needed some fun and games in our morning? :rofl:
 

rosada

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You say you have no recollection of putting the keys on the washer. I wonder if that is significant. Perhaps the I Ching could not give you The Well or some other hexagram having to do with water because that image would not mirror anything in you. Perhaps because there was nothing in you that knew where the keys were the only help the I Ching could give was to tell you to retrace your steps.
 

rosada

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It used to be that the stove was considered the heart of the home. I wonder if now that man has pretty much tamed fire if now water is to become the universal symbol for the shared resource the human Family now holds in common?
 

Trojina

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In hindsight I see 37uc as the perfect answer for Lisa's keys. It's a kind of holistic answer. I am not explaining what I mean by holistic....it just is an holistic answer. Keys and Home are one if you think of it. A new neighbour moved in next door to me yesterday and told me at first he could not get in , he had the wrong keys. From his POV before that first step through the door those keys symbolised his whole house. When I go out I carry my house keys next to my body. I'm a Cancerian, a crab, I need to carry my house/covering with me, to me these are symbolised by keys to the house.

Keys = Home
 

Trojina

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It used to be that the stove was considered the heart of the home. I wonder if now that man has pretty much tamed fire if now water is to become the universal symbol for the shared resource the human Family now holds in common?

This is a good point. Some survey showed the British hardly eat anything at home that they cook from scratch. Despite liking cooking shows on TV they don't cook ! So what do they still do that is utterly central to domestic life in a home....wash their clothes ! Also washers do run on fire, electricity.

Now to see if this theory holds water (;) no pun intended) we need to find out how often Lisa cooks at home ?

Also I thought Lisa found her keys in the washer/dryer not on it. How on earth they got in it is a mystery !
 

pocossin

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Question: Where are my car keys and envelope?
Answer: 37uc
Outcome: Keys and envelope had fallen inside my washing machine.

Could someone please explain that to me?

I can suggest possibilities. 1. There is a resemblance between a washing machine and a mailbox, so your unconscious mind led you to put those items in the mailbox similitude, thereby completing your delayed task (the Zeigarnik effect). 2. You had picked up something that needed to be washed -- maybe a towel or cloth in the kitchen -- and in putting it in the washing machine released keys and envelope also.
 

Liselle

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You say you have no recollection of putting the keys on the washer. I wonder if that is significant. Perhaps the I Ching could not give you The Well or some other hexagram having to do with water because that image would not mirror anything in you. Perhaps because there was nothing in you that knew where the keys were the only help the I Ching could give was to tell you to retrace your steps.

Mmm, maybe? I hadn't thought of it like that.

Since I was asking for a location, if I'd gotten 48uc I think (I hope!) I'd have stopped and thought about all the possible "well-like" things in my apartment, and which ones might pertain. The kitchen sink, since I'd been in the kitchen. Eliminate the bathtub since I'd never gone near it. Etc. The washing machine is identifiable enough as a "well" that I hope I'd have included it. (I can't be sure, but...)

Or 29uc would have meant the washing machine to me (if I was the least bit awake when looking at the reading, haha), because Yi had given me the 29uc reading when I bought it (meaning Whirlpool brand).

In hindsight I see 37uc as the perfect answer for Lisa's keys. It's a kind of holistic answer. I am not explaining what I mean by holistic....it just is an holistic answer. Keys and Home are one if you think of it. A new neighbour moved in next door to me yesterday and told me at first he could not get in , he had the wrong keys. From his POV before that first step through the door those keys symbolised his whole house. When I go out I carry my house keys next to my body. I'm a Cancerian, a crab, I need to carry my house/covering with me, to me these are symbolised by keys to the house.

Keys = Home

That's an interesting concept; I like it. Without keys to your house you almost may as well not HAVE a house. When a realtor hands over the keys at purchase (or a rental agent at rental), they're handing you your home - never thought of it that way.

How would that idea have applied to my reading, though? I'm trying to think how it could have helped, as an answer to my question. Maybe if I'd locked myself entirely out of my building, without access to my home, and Yi was telling me I'd left the keys inside, like saying, "Gee, now you're homeless, aren't you, you silly person?" That wasn't the case though. I was safely inside my apt., and I knew for sure the keys were in there with me.

This is a good point. Some survey showed the British hardly eat anything at home that they cook from scratch. Despite liking cooking shows on TV they don't cook ! So what do they still do that is utterly central to domestic life in a home....wash their clothes ! Also washers do run on fire, electricity.

Now to see if this theory holds water (;) no pun intended) we need to find out how often Lisa cooks at home ?

< suspects that Trojina very well intended that pun :p >

I hardly ever eat out; I cook at home all the time (that is if frozen vegetables and the like can be referred to as such, haha.).

But, I actually do think of my washer and dryer as being central to my domestic life. Maybe not more than the stove (or the refrigerator, for that matter, which is really the most indispensable of all of them) - but you might be hitting on something here. Not all apartments have washer-dryer hookups, and I do feel lucky to have a (reasonably-priced) apt. that does. So in the sense of being special to me - yes, absolutely.

What I'm wondering, though, is if the notion of "central to domestic life" is a core meaning of 37uc in practical terms in readings. Can we generalize, and say that in 37uc readings people should think about what is central to their domestic life that would fit the context of their question?

Maybe...it could be different for every person, or every question. If a 10-year-old boy asked where is his baseball, and got 37uc, it might mean the spot in the house he feels most attached to. If his 16-year-old sister got the same answer, it could mean a different spot. (If it would fit accurately, of course. But the point would be that 37uc means more than just "it's in the house.")

(If there is something to this, then there might actually be a purpose to still discussing Lisa's freaking keys! Whew! LOL - now I want this to be true.)

Also I thought Lisa found her keys in the washer/dryer not on it. How on earth they got in it is a mystery !
Yes, they were inside the washer (the washer, not the dryer, despite the trigrams being very dryer-y). They had to have fallen in - my best guess is that the keys, on top of the envelope, on the edge of the open washing machine, was all just slightly unstable, and at a certain point in time they tipped over the edge.
 

Liselle

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I can suggest possibilities. 1. There is a resemblance between a washing machine and a mailbox, so your unconscious mind led you to put those items in the mailbox similitude, thereby completing your delayed task (the Zeigarnik effect).

< googles Zeigarnik effect >

Wikipedia: "In psychology, the Zeigarnik effect (less common: Ovsiankina-Effect) states that people remember uncompleted or interrupted tasks better than completed tasks." Gives the example that waiters remember unpaid checks better than paid ones, and when the unpaid checks are paid, they are forgotten, too.

I can almost see that, sort of, in a way. Out of sight, out of mind. Put the keys and envelope on (in) the washing machine, collect trash, take trash out forgetting that I ever had other errands in mind...

If it had been just the envelope, maybe, but I couldn't have gotten through that list without the keys. I couldn't have locked up behind myself, and couldn't have gotten back inside after taking out the trash. Not to say I've never done that, but it's thankfully very rare, and I think it would be just plain airheadedness rather than the Zeigarnik effect. (ETA: if I'm correctly understanding what you're saying, of course.)

2. You had picked up something that needed to be washed -- maybe a towel or cloth in the kitchen -- and in putting it in the washing machine released keys and envelope also.
This isn't factually what happened. The keys and envelope were in the washer by themselves. (But it is the kind of thing I could easily see myself doing. Not completely off-base there, not at all :eek: .)
 
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Trojina

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Yes, they were inside the washer (the washer, not the dryer, despite the trigrams being very dryer-y). They had to have fallen in - my best guess is that the keys, on top of the envelope, on the edge of the open washing machine, was all just slightly unstable, and at a certain point in time they tipped over the edge.

I don't know what kind of washer you have but with mine it would be impossible for things to fall into it from above. It's upright with a door facing outwards so if something fell from the ledge above it would have to do a curve mid air in order to enter the machine.


This is going to be so helpful to everyone looking for info on 37uc in the future :rofl:

I love that most of this thread has revolved around the washing machine :rofl:

Personally I have always enjoyed doing laundry. I like to see the clothes go round and round and I'd like to hang them out in the wind to dry but I have no garden. :weep:
 

Liselle

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Yes, I have a top load machine. You lift the lid up and drop the laundry down in it, which is what makes it a good hex 48 Well.

I've heard that front-load machines are very common in Europe. They exist here, too, but I've never had one.

Laundry is one of my favorite household chores, also :D. So nice and clean and fresh-smelling. (Same, about hanging it out.)
 

pocossin

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< googles Zeigarnik effect >

The Wikipedia article is poor. It omits the suffering in her personal life as a member of a persecuted minority and misdefines the Zeigarik effect, a compulsion to complete incomplete tasks. Memory is only part of it. For example: a professor hired college students to fill a barrel with water by fetching water from a stream, using only a cup. When the barrel was nearly full, the professor would say, "Stop, that's enough," and pay the student for his work. Invariably students would sneak back later and finish filling the barrel. When you put the envelope into the washing machine, you symbolically completed your task, I speculate. The incomplete task that now calls me is to push-plow a section of my garden.
 

Liselle

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...the Zeigarik effect, a compulsion to complete incomplete tasks. Memory is only part of it. When you put the envelope into the washing machine, you symbolically completed your task, I speculate. The incomplete task that now calls me is to push-plow a section of my garden.

If I symbolically completed the task of mailing the envelope, would it be necessary to feel as if it was completed?

I'm trying to remember how I felt about the envelope, separate from the keys. If I never lost sight of the necessity to actually mail it, then (if I'm getting this), no symbolic Zeigarik effect would have taken place, right? If a Zeigarik effect had taken place, what would be my expected reaction when I then found the envelope in the washer? Would it have caused me to be a bit surprised? Like, "Oh right...I still have to mail this"? Or more bewildered? ("What is this strange object I have here?" Or, "Why on earth is there an envelope in my washing machine?") ETA: Maybe not that strong of reactions - reality would come back pretty easily I'd think. So maybe mild surprise or bewilderment would still count.

It was certainly the keys that were causing me the most angst at the time. I knew the envelope was with them. Unfortunately, I really can't remember anymore if I felt differently about the envelope than the keys.
 

rosada

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It is interesting how if we allow ourselves to sit for a bit with a hexagram we don't understand or agree with, it will eventually make sense and in fact we will come to realize it is indeed exactly the right answer after all.
 

pocossin

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I'm trying to remember how I felt about the envelope, separate from the keys.

If I understand correctly, you have no memory of what happened. You were running on automatic. I frequently experience highway hypnosis, that is, I come to and find myself where I should be, but have no memory of how I got there. Nevertheless, I have driven many hundreds of thousands of miles and have never had an accident. My unconscious mind is a better driver than I am. When you put the envelope and keys in the washer, you were fulfilling a need. My speculation is that you were operating under a need to mail the envelope. In my understanding of the trigrams, hexagram 37 is excellent for a mailbox: ☴ communication, ☲ container.
 

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