25. Wu Wang / Innocence ( The Unexpected )

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------ above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE
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-- --
-- -- below CHEN THE AROUSING, THUNDER
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Ch'ien, heaven, is above; Chen, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chen is under the influence of the strong line it has received from above, from heaven. When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For whatever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost. Nature that is not directed by the spirit is not true, but degenerate nature. Starting out with the idea of the natural, the train of thought in part goes somewhat further and thus the hexagram includes also the idea of the unintentional or unexpected.

The rulers of the hexagram are the one at the beginning and the nine in the fifth place. The nine at the beginning is the first movement of the light principle as well as the first movement of the sincere heart of man. The nine in the fifth place symbolizes the essence of the Creative, as well as the tirelessness of the supremely sincere. Therefore it is said in the Commentary on ghe Decision: "The firm comes from without and becomes the ruler within." This refers to the first line. And further: "The firm is in the middle and finds correspondence."
This refers to the fifth line.

The Sequence
By turning back one is freed of guilt. Hence there follows the hexagram of INNOCENCE.

Miscellaneous Notes
The UNEXPECTED means misfortune from within.

Innocence frees itself of mistakes, so that no misfortune of internal origin can overtake it. When misfortune comes unexpectedly, it has an external origin, therefore it will pass again.
The hexagram has a very strong ascending tendency; both the upper and the lower trigram have an upward movement. This fact suggests movement in harmony with heaven, which is man's true and original nature. The two nuclear trigrams, Ken, Keeping Still, mountain, and Sun, the Gentle, wind (tree), yield the idea of the functioning and development of the primal trends.

--Wilhelm

Like with so many hexagrams, I've been through different names for this one. I started out with Innocence, and then after I found Karcher I went with Without Entanglement for awhile. These days, although I still call it Without Entanglement, I think of the lack of entanglement as meaning spontaneity. See, when I work toward understanding a particular hexagram these days, I really try to understand it in its relation to its pair. So 25's pair is 26, which has to do with all sorts of restraint. By contrast, 25 is unrestrained - not license or lack of control (remember the warning in the text about how if you're not 'correct' things will go badly wrong), but more in the sense I mentioned before - unrestrained in the sense of spontaneity. With both 25 and 26, it's a matter of how you deal with that heaven energy in the trigram. With 26, you rein it in; with 25, it's more useful to let it express itself spontaneously, as long as it's 'correct'.

Cheerful picture eh ! Still thats also 25 for you, things that just can't be accounted for - things you call 'just one of those things'. Not everything happens for a reason, some things just happen.

Interesting 25 image, Luis. I guess it focuses on the trigrams and the unexpected. I guess he wasn't as he should have been, and it doesn't look like he'll be undertaking anything.

trojan said:

Not everything happens for a reason, some things just happen.

Click to expand...

Yes, also true. Yet there does seem a bit of karma at work, at least according to the text. Wilhelm says "If someone isn't as he should be, He has misfortune", Bradford has "For one without integrity there will be suffering", LiSe renders it "An incorrect attitude brings disaster through shortsightedness".

I wonder what that is on his face? A mask? Maybe he's a bandit, or perhaps just not showing his true (innocent) face.

Oh I didn't notice that thing on his face, yes maybe bandit ?

I tend to take the 'being as he should be" as simply not imposing an intention of any kind on the situation, not trying to take control of what is happening, its out of your hands. (26 on the other hand is all about taking control isn't it ?) I think it may be alot of current thinking (you have total responsibility type stuff) won't admit the reality of 25 - that is bad things can happen to good people and the misfortune here isn't about wrong doing as such but trying to control and direct the flow of the situation.

And even then with innocence misfortune can still come as in line 3.

Funny I was reading an old thread where someone asks what she can learn from the minor accident shes had and I thought this was going too far in thinking every single unexpected incident as a 'lesson' . And in a way I think wanting to see everything as having a personal meaning is a way of wresting control back from an unpredictable world - comforting in a strange way to think that A was robbed because hes been a bad person - then just maybe you can control your own misfortune, but I think 25 says 'hey **** happens'.

This is not to deny karma etc but I just feel with 25 if it is you're best not trying to fathom it - it may not be your problem at all.

I have to say the lines in 25 are quite challenging, especially if you throw lines 1 and 6 together !

I zero in on Wilhelm's comment that the original impulses of the heart are always good, and that it's when we start thinking about things too much that we get confused. I went to a baby's first birthday once, I think the mother was from Mexico or maybe Indonesia, anyway we played a party game popular in her country where the child was put on a rug and surrounded with various toys symbolizing careers. The idea was that whatever the child instinctivly reached for first - a pen, a paintbrush, a hammer etc. - that would indicate the soul's true work. It was fascinating because the baby actually ignored several bright tools and went out of her way to reach for a checkbook! This was quite "unexpected" and we figured it was a very auspitious omen.

Good comments, all.

Luis' image is very different than the one I'm currently using (it's always being updated or revised).

Ah Cute . These images couldn't be further apart could they , a man struck by lightening and a squirrel interfacing with a boy - yet they both can be 25

bruce_g said:

Interesting 25 image, Luis. I guess it focuses on the trigrams and the unexpected. I guess he wasn't as he should have been, and it doesn't look like he'll be undertaking anything.

Click to expand...

Foreboding, to say the least... Perhaps he should have known better and should have stayed away from trees in a thunderstorm (more than innocence, ignorance and inexperience). The image shows his face turned away from us. He's somebody traveling a road and thus carries a knapsack. What you see coming from his head is a ribbon that was used to tie his topknot, a very common part of the attire.

Ignorance and inexperience does bring things that are, for the subject, unexpected.

L

Actually, up close, what I say is a knapsack looks like a typical Chinese hat (too symmetrical) ... Still, what I get from the image is that of a traveler that does not know the perils of the road and falls victim of them.

L

Let me skip this stone across the pond and see where it lands.

Primal innocence is trustworthy. That's quite a big statement. It's not looking upward toward evolution, but downward to origin. This is very different than the teaching of our culture, which teaches that we must reach up to heaven for the answers we need. We must be redeemed from the sins of earth, and salvation comes from forgiveness. But primal innocence is 180 degrees from the idea of salvation. 25 says we're already true, and all we need to do is allow that truth to live unencumbered.

One says people are inherently impure, and are redeemed by heaven.

One says people are inherently pure, and are sullied by their departure from innocence.

Skipping it across the pond? You've inspired me to skip it across the great water and look where we're heading: 26. the hexagram that lauds the mind, just after 25 has practically praised ignorance! What's going on here? What is going to cause such a dramatic change in values???

Looking ahead at the lines of 25 it appears to me we are going to be following..
25.1 the story of a naive young soul who starts out with a fair amount of beginner's luck and good intentions.
25.2 He finds work to do he enjoys doing and his trusting nature leads him on. But before the harvest comes in and he can retire thinking life is just a bowl of cherries, every misfortune known to Adam falls upon him...
25.3 Other innocent souls just like himself walk off with his cow!
25.4 Fool doesn't know what else to do but just keeps on doing what he's always been doing only now he gets...
25.5 Illness...and it's still not his fault, he's done NOTHING WRONG..and sure enough his belief in his innocence strengthens him to persever but you know what..
26.6 Ultimately this Innocent Fool crap loses it's cache. "I'm tired of having my cows stolen, I'm tired of getting sick, surely there must be something I'm doing wrong or could be doing differently, 'cause Innocence may work in Heaven, but it's not working here on Earth!'

Well, interestingly enough,
25.Spring Fool Innocence (and inevitably, Really Dumb Avoidable Accidents) is followed by..
26. Major Restraint and that the key advice of Major Restraint's Image reads "Thus the superior man acquaints himelf with many sayings of antiquity andmany deeds of the past, in order to strengthen his character thereby." So the young Innocent starts to think and study what others have done in the past. He is no longer so in touch with his original unsullied streight from Heaven Purity, but now he may live a little longer when he learns the ways of Earthings..

Seems to be saying that while Innocence has it's season, we can't keep playing the "Opps, not my fault, it was an accident" card forever. Inevitably we can not evolve without somehow examining our "Accidents", learning where may be we were at fault. How'd we get that cow in the first place? Maybe we took it from someone else oursleves, before we knew about laws and karma. So we thought we were Innocent, but when we got tired enoough of being hurt we were willing to accept there might be something worth learning, we acquired the desire to learn to use our minds, dangerous to our inate virtue as that challenge might be.

26. Taming Power of the Great says I don't evolve beyond Innocence/Accidents until I digest the experiences of the past and learn from them. So here at 26. I must pause and consider the "Sayings of antiquity" and the "many deeds of the past" to see how others successfully negotiated this new challenge - that in my Innocence I have no prior experience with. Thus through study I can learn about cows and karma without having to actually make all the experiences myself.

Or at least I think that's what 26 is going to be about. No need to leap forward to 26 and debate that now. I haven't studied it, I'm just mulling over 25.

I think he is not part of nature. If he was, he would have reckoned with the lightning. He would have known better than to be on the road in this kind of weather, and under a tree on top of that. Asking for trouble.

If you want to survive on this planet, you have to know the rules of nature. Being one with nature is being "without thwart". That was the most appropriate translation I found for 'wang', something which goes against things, crossgrained. Which does not align with nature.

Nature is a loving mother, but will devour all children which are not viable. Going against nature rules means not to be fit for survival.

LiSe

Like nature with her rules (25) is the mother, 26 is the father. He gives us the archetypes which make it possible to find our way in life. Chicks coming out of the egg already 'know' that a shadow overhead of a certain form, moving in a certain way, means "run for cover, NOW". That is 26.

LiSe

IC+

25 The Unexpected (Innocence)
Dis-entangling
In a context of enlightenment we utilise singlemindedness

"WU WANG -

WU : devoid of; -less as suffix..

WANG : caught-up in, entangled, involved; disorder, incoherence; foolish, wild, reckless; false, brutish behaviour; vain, idle, futile." ERANOS p311

Some pairs perspectives:

In the binary sequence hexagram 25 pairs with hexagram 17.
This pairing reflects the unconditional act of 'following' , hexagram 17, as compared to the conditional act of standing to assert one's perspective regardless of consequence.

In the binary sequence hexagram 25 opposes hexagram 46.
This pairing reflects issues of disentangling oneself to assert one's opinion/faith (25) vs becoming more entangled with a particular perspective (46).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the THUNDER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 24, the focus upon returning to the 'true' path, opposes hexagram 25, disentangling. More so, the exaggerated sense of asserting one's opinion without fear of, consideration of, consequence is reflected in a more balanced format through a 'soft' return to a 'true' belief.

In the traditional sequence 25 pairs with 26.
This pairing focuses on holding to one's convictions, be it by asserting them regardless of the consequences (25) or on a general sense of 'holding firm' to traditional perspectives (26). As such 25 is more 'personal', 26 more 'social'.

HOLDING FIRM:

25 : holding firm - through expressing personal beliefs, disentangle; 25 disentangling comes from a context described by hexagram 45 - congregating, celebrating

26 : holding firm - through staying with traditional beliefs; 26 hold firm comes out of a context described by hexagram 46 - entangling, pushing upwards


In the traditional sequence hexagram 25 opposes hexagram 40.
In this pair we cover issues of 'tension' where the rising to one's feet to 'say one's piece' is tension all the way with the intent of removing internal tension. In hexagram 40 the focus is on tension release through a sudden change, a relaxation of structure rather than its assertion.

The generic properties of hexagram 25 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 17 with the generic properties of hexagram 45.

A combination of a focus on a particular belief (17) with a focus on celebrating that belief (45) is reflected in the ability to assert one's opinion free of thoughts of consequences of one's actions (25) (and so to disentangle oneself).

In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 25 complements hexagram 12.
This pair reflects issues of dealing with other opinions re beliefs, for 25 we stand-up and assert our belief 'innocently' whereas with 12 there is more of an intent to neutralise the attacks of others.

Some XOR perspectives:

the infrastructure of 25 (27-ness) is described by analogy to 45 and covers actions taking place within a congregation where, given the consensual belief context one can stand and assert one's own point of vew - regardless of consequences etc and so 'disentangling' oneself from the group.

25 starts with, keeps coming back to (24-ness), hexagram 12 with ITS focus on neutralising attacks/comments on one's belief through competitive means - parrying the attacks serves to strengthen the belief. (this is considered negative in the traditional IC due to the focus on sticking to a belief and so 'stagnating' - avoding change)

25 gets its source of nourishment from characteristics described by analogy to 14 with its focus on direction setting (with perseverence comes a 'way', a direction, an ideology). As such this 'drives' the willingness to stand up and assert one's often unique perspective.

Full list of these aspects of a hexagram summarised in the line meaning section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x111001.html

Chris.

25. Uranus (Heaven) over Mars (Thunder)

Neptune over Mars in hexagram 24 and now Uranus over Mars. Both planets are not entirely of this world. What is the difference?

Warning: what follows may sound a bit far out.
And it probably is.

Cough ..
If Neptune represents the collective Soul or Oversoul, Uranus stands for the Overspirit, if that is a word.
The Oversoul has a past, memories, it remembers everything that happened, to mankind, animals, plants, the earth, the universe. Nothing is ever forgotten.
And it cares, its principle is Love, it 'mothers', it is the mother of the universe.
It is also 'mother' in the sense of matter, primal matter, prima materia. All and everything and everyone is made of its substance, its archetypal images. That is the real 'stuff' of the universe, not the 'matter' of our physics and chemistry.

Because of all that, the Oversoul is not free, it is involved, deeply involded, 'entangled'. When the universe is about to end it cannot say "Goodbye and thank you for the fish", like the dolphins of Douglas Adams.

But the Overspirit - no memories there, no past, no future either, no expectations, no anticipation. Only awareness. It is like a perfect mirror. Its principle is Truth and it only reflects the Truth, without touching anything or being touched. There is no involvement, there are no ties, the Overspirit is completely free and forever Alone.

When the Overspirit acts (Mars) you don't see it coming because there is no link with the past. There is no continuity at all. It's like its actions come from another dimension, perpendicular to historical time. They are therefore unpredictable. The "unexpected".
There is also no link with the future, no purpose, no anticipation or expectation, no planning, no scheming. The Overspirit acts because it acts. That's all. It doesn't care about the effects of its actions. Now is all there is. It is "innocent".

It can be rather disruptive too, this combination of Mars and Uranus. As Luis' picture illustrates. What happened to this guy? Suddenly his history erased? And his personal sense of self with it? No history, no self. That can happen when the Spirit hits you. You cannot even say "Thank you for the fish" anymore. What fish?
But we will never know what happened to him. If his history is erased. Right? Lol.
I'm not sure about Bruce's picture. It has a certain softness, a dreamlike quality. It's more Neptunian, I would say.
But maybe that's just me and my Neptunian imagination ..

martin said:

But the Overspirit - no memories there, no past, no future either, no expectations, no anticipation. Only awareness. It is like a perfect mirror. Its principle is Truth and it only reflects the Truth, without touching anything or being touched. There is no involvement, there are no ties, the Overspirit is completely free and forever Alone.

When the Overspirit acts (Mars) you don't see it coming because there is no link with the past. There is no continuity at all. It's like its actions come from another dimension, perpendicular to historical time. They are therefore unpredictable. The "unexpected".
There is also no link with the future, no purpose, no anticipation or expectation, no planning, no scheming. The Overspirit acts because it acts. That's all. It doesn't care about the effects of its actions. Now is all there is. It is "innocent".

It can be rather disruptive too, this combination of Mars and Uranus. As Luis' picture illustrates. What happened to this guy? Suddenly his history erased? And his personal sense of self with it? No history, no self. That can happen when the Spirit hits you. You cannot even say "Thank you for the fish" anymore. What fish?
..

Click to expand...

Fantastic, yes thats how I see it (except the mother /father stuff). It acts because it acts.

heylise said:

I think he is not part of nature. If he was, he would have reckoned with the lightning. He would have known better than to be on the road in this kind of weather, and under a tree on top of that. Asking for trouble.

If you want to survive on this planet, you have to know the rules of nature. Being one with nature is being "without thwart". That was the most appropriate translation I found for 'wang', something which goes against things, crossgrained. Which does not align with nature.

Nature is a loving mother, but will devour all children which are not viable. Going against nature rules means not to be fit for survival.

LiSe

Click to expand...

Ah Lise I can't agree. I thought the whole point in Luis picture is that lightening, the random uncontrollable element can strike anyone. We don't have far to look to see the victims of natural disaster everywhere, the Tsunami for example. Now you can't tell me that if those people wanted to survive they had to know the rules of nature ? What happens in 25 I think does not depend on any human rules - nature doesn't have alot of interest in them I don't think.

Your last paragraph made me nearly choke on my coffee nature 'will devour all children which are not viable' . Trouble is if one follows that logic then by implication those whom 'mother nature' does take were not viable in the first place thats why they were taken - dangerous stuff - kinda "oh you were struck by lightening, you must have been outta line"

And er hang on a minute you said 19 and 20 were mother and father - and i disagreed and now you have 25 as mother and 26 as father ?? Can't see forces of nature as maternal or paternal,(other than poetically) they are just the forces of nature, sometimes it nurtures us, other times it tears us limb from limb but which it does doesn't depend on our behaviour - nearly agreeing with Chris that this is superstitious 10bc thinking.

Or do you think the spirit of the Tsunami really could have been appeased ?

Interesting observations, Martin. Uranus rules lightening by the way. The tarot card images for Uranus and Mars are the Fool and the Lightening Struck Tower...

Musing about nature and Innocence/Accidents. I think we're seeing here is a level of understanding, or lack of understanding that makes all mishaps "accidents". I mean, if the Fool doesn't know enough to come in out of the rain, yeah, then you say he's not at fault, it was an Accident. But experience adds up and like they say, "If you hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." Perhaps at first glance it appears the storm was just a freak of nature and that the villager ought not be blamed for being caught in a tsunami, but as we learn and study weather conditions we learn that global warming caused the fierce tides and perhaps as we study and learn more after that our spiritual understanding opens up and we see that this villager was a very sincere man who desired to help his people, but there was no possibility of that happening in his limited circumstances and now after this "accidental" death he will be reborn in a family of scholars and he will in the next life be able to achieve what he could not in this one. So what appears at the level of 25. Innocence and Accidents can be seen quite differently as we gain more knowledge. I think it's interesting that LiSe is seeing 25 in terms of Mother Nature and survival of the fitest. I don't think you're implying that those who were taken out were somehow out of line, here, but rather that at the very beginning stages of developement it really doesn't matter who lives and who dies. One egg gets the sperm, a million others return to the primordial ooze. But as experience racks up, I think we're seeing that Innocence also gains Knowledge. Maybe this is 24. Returning to 26. The Father by way of 25. The Mother/Earthly experience. And maybe the trick of 25/26 is how to maintain one's basic instincts while acquiring knowledge. How does a musically gifted child gain the skills to play the classical violin without losing their inner ear that's composing jazz?

I think we’ve gotten too hung up on Luis’ catastrophic picture. Tsunami has little to do with 25, as I see it, and the same for bad things happening to good people. Even the karma idea is a spin. I think all this misses the point of 25, or at least, it’s pretty far off the bull’s eye.

If you believe in the original sin idea, then there’s no use having a hexagram 25. If on the other hand, you envision or can envision that original nature can be trusted, then 25 has a place. Departure from original nature is unnatural, and that is what invites disaster.

Consider what disasters these may be. We see examples here all the time. A couple breaks up, most often because they were not completely honest with themselves or with one another in the first place. It works for awhile, but sooner or later each ones true nature reveals itself, and then it’s “Woe is me, my boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife has left me!” That may seem petty, but it’s devastating to the one to whom it’s happening. Any time we leave our true nature, we are risking losing everything we are. That’s catastrophic in my book, and if there is any sin, it is a sin against nature.

Looking at the trigrams, Thunder and then The Creative. Could this be suggesting that when something unexpected hits like a bolt of lightening it inspires us to be Creative?

rosada said:

Looking at the trigrams, Thunder and then The Creative. Could this be suggesting that when something unexpected hits like a bolt of lightening it inspires us to be Creative?

Click to expand...

It certainly implies spontaneity, as opposed to contrived creative action.

I'm going to withdraw my statement, that Tsunami has nothing to do with 25. Being a natural phenomena, of course it has to do with 25. And it's true, disaster can strike innocents. If that's seen as a whole, it's all natural activity. One could hardly "blame" the earth for letting off some steam once in awhile. If a few thousand humans get washed away, that too is natural. Misfortune does happen to innocent people, but that's life. I doubt we worry much about washing away an ant colony when we water our garden.

It's also true (I believe) that not all impulses which arise can be said to be pure, natural or innocent. And for that there are consequences (i.e. line 6).

An up side is, as Rosada mentioned, creativity which spontaneously springs up from a natural place is a result of 25. I guess you could say it erupts from the spirit.

There's a lot which can be attached to and associated with 25, just as with all hexagrams, but I also believe each hex has a core, and that core is difficult to express with one word or sentence. Yet, I don't struggle with a clear idea of 25. If I sound too sure of myself on this one, pitch a pinch of salt over your shoulder.

rosada said:

Looking at the trigrams, Thunder and then The Creative. Could this be suggesting that when something unexpected hits like a bolt of lightening it inspires us to be Creative?

Click to expand...

more so singleminded - a consequence of which can be 'creativity' but it can also be 'mad' ;-)

If we work off the generic then we have heaven in lower represents perseverence, heaven in upper represents perseverence doubled and so 'singlmindedness'.

The focus of heaven also covers the focus on the discrete, on anger, self-devotion, and an overall sense of being competitive (in five phase we have competitive exchange (a part of METAL)).

The thunder gives us a ground of surprise, sudden, new, enlightement etc
The heaven gives us a focus on a competitive,singleminded behaviour.

the analogy in the traditional interpretations is to the SUDDEN standing up in a crowd to assert one's point of view where this covers (a) the sudden and (b) the discrete, competitive, self emphasis of 25.

When sitting in the crowd one is of the crowd. To suddenly stand to assert one's own personal perspective (often in response to, in competition with, some one else) is an act of disentanglement where one is driven to 'say something' - and damn any consequences (that includes embarrasment where one's assertions show ignorance/innocense of the facts etc)

The action CAN be creative in that it brings to attention some point missed by others - and so can bring out the audience's innocense!

25 share structural space with 17 and so an overall focus on finding/establishing a belief - 17 is unconditional, 25 is conditional.

This emphasis is brought out in the traditional pairing of 25,26 with focus on holding firm to one's own belief (25) or to the collective belief (26).

When we view the variations-on-a-theme sequence of the I Ching, 25 shares space with 12 where we attempt to neutralise attacks on our belief etc. - in both is the competitive edge but in 25 it is 'unexpected' and often sign of youth, innocense etc. where they will often stand up to express their opinion etc and the 'adults'/knowledgable will recognise the lack of experience in understanding what is going on.

Of note is the behaviour of heaven in the continued engagement with reality as an exercise in refining skills. Thus there can be purpose in raising an issue one knows little about in that the exercise tests one's social skills in debate etc.

Chris.

I am totally against the idea of original sin. It makes my skin crawl. But if you do something dumb, nature can strike extremely hard. Nature can just as well strike extremely hard if you did not do anything dumb. One does not automatically exclude the other.
"Dumb - so you get hit."

But "You get hit - so you're dumb" is a very crooked reasoning and a dangerous one. The first one is natural, every small kid learns that rule by trying and getting hurt and then knowing what it can do and what not. The second one has been devised by sick minds, who need a scapegoat for their own fears or convictions.

I think Luis picture includes both ways of nature.

25.3 and 6 are about being dumb. Both are not about really doing something 'wrong', just not thinking about consequences. The top line can also include being hit without having had any opportunity to avoid it. Line 5 to accept what happens, sometimes there is really nothing you can do about it. But line 4 is totally in tune with all, because he can hear the voice of the gods (we'd maybe call it intuition).

LiSe

heylise said:

I am totally against the idea of original sin. It makes my skin crawl. But if you do something dumb, nature can strike extremely hard. Nature can just as well strike extremely hard if you did not do anything dumb. One does not automatically exclude the other.
"Dumb - so you get hit."

But "You get hit - so you're dumb" is a very crooked reasoning and a dangerous one. The first one is natural, every small kid learns that rule by trying and getting hurt and then knowing what it can do and what not. The second one has been devised by sick minds, who need a scapegoat for their own fears or convictions.

I think Luis picture includes both ways of nature.

25.3 and 6 are about being dumb. Both are not about really doing something 'wrong', just not thinking about consequences. The top line can also include being hit without having had any opportunity to avoid it. Line 5 to accept what happens, sometimes there is really nothing you can do about it. But line 4 is totally in tune with all, because he can hear the voice of the gods (we'd maybe call it intuition).

LiSe

Click to expand...

'You're get hit cos your're dumb' has to be the logical opposite of 'your're dumb so you get hit'. You can't logically go one way without automatically implying the other IMO. I guessed you weren't personally wanting to imply this but to me it seems a logical progression. If its not logical then I can't see it right now ? One may have a car accident because one is careless or one may have a car accident because someone else is careless. To say one only ever has an accident because one is careless, automatically implies everyone who just had an accident must have been careless. This patently isn't the case. The fact that this isn't always the case shows in line 3.

I don't think 25,3 is about being dumb, I think its about simple misfortune, nor do I see 25, 6 as about being dumb - just not a great time to trust your impulses.

I guess i have to agree to disagree with your take on 25.

bruce_g said:

I'm going to withdraw my statement, that Tsunami has nothing to do with 25. Being a natural phenomena, of course it has to do with 25. And it's true, disaster can strike innocents. If that's seen as a whole, it's all natural activity. One could hardly "blame" the earth for letting off some steam once in awhile. If a few thousand humans get washed away, that too is natural. Misfortune does happen to innocent people, but that's life. I doubt we worry much about washing away an ant colony when we water our garden.

It's also true (I believe) that not all impulses which arise can be said to be pure, natural or innocent. And for that there are consequences (i.e. line 6).

An up side is, as Rosada mentioned, creativity which spontaneously springs up from a natural place is a result of 25. I guess you could say it erupts from the spirit.

.

Click to expand...

Your first paragraph sums up the whole point I was trying to make. Some people write as if only they behave themselves they'll be safe from disaster - but to the forces of nature yes we're pretty much an ant colony and I don't think it has an eye on our behaviour as to whether its going to send a blizzard etc Martins differentiation between 'oversoul' and 'overspirit' seems to hit the mark to me .

BTW I only bought up the Tsunami to illustrate a point in a response to Lises post where she was saying if you don't obey laws of nature you are in trouble.

Actually I think the problem is the use of the word 'nature' - I think in 25 its more our own nature we are warned not to cross, ie to be spontaneuos without design etc
Afterall human nature is as much part of nature as anything else. No I don't believe in original sin

Maybe its part of human nature to always want to have a known reason for why A has happened to B - but I think its an important part of development to recognise we have to give up attaching our reasons to forces beyond us.

maybe I think 25 points to our place in the scheme of things - we think we can figure it all out by thinking - we can't.