38.K'uei / Opposition

rosada · Feb 12, 2008

38. K'uei / Opposition

-----
-- -- above LI THE CLINGING, FLAME
-----

-- --
----- below TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE
-----

This hexagram is composed of the trigram Li above, i.e., flame,
which burns upward, and Tui below, i.e. the lake, which
seeps downward. These two movements are in direct contrast.
Furthermore, Li is the second daughter and Tui the youngest
daughter, and although they live in the same house they
belong to different men; hence their wills are not the same
but are divergently directed.

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2008

Here it is, the Chinese version of a Spanish soap-opera...

martin · Feb 12, 2008

Ah yes, they give each other the silent treatment.
Definitely not Spanish, I mean, treatment yes, but silent? :rolling:

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2008

Hey, there are passive-aggressive among us...

Trojina · Feb 12, 2008

These two inthe picture don't even look like they're going to agree over the small things

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2008

trojan said:
These two inthe picture don't even look like they're going to agree over the small things

Nope. On the other hand, the make-up sex must be epic... :rolling:

dobro · Feb 13, 2008

sparhawk said:
Nope. On the other hand, the make-up sex must be epic...

That's for sure. I mean, there's the table to the left where they can eventually sit down and communicate, and there's the divan to the right where they can eventually lie down and...communicate.

dobro · Feb 13, 2008

Anyway, there's one aspect of that picture that I think is really 38: polarization rather than conflict. Notice how they're facing opposite directions? Rather than facing each other and going at each other, they're facing opposite directions. But for me, that's only half the story of 38. For me, 38 means pulling in opposite directions, wanting different directions (not the stubborn standing there, like in the picture - that's what I think the picture didn't get exactly right. For me, 38 doesn't (necessarily) mean anger, and it certainly doesn't need to involve stubbornness. It just means two forces are:

a operating in the situation

b pulling in opposite directions

There doesn't have to to any emotional disturbance, in other words. It can be as simple as two very balanced people with rather different agendas.

Trojina · Feb 13, 2008

dobro said:
There doesn't have to to any emotional disturbance, in other words. It can be as simple as two very balanced people with rather different agendas.

I agree though i think we often assume people share our agenda when they don't which leads to misunderstanding and so sometimes upset. 38 often seems to come up as a warning against misunderstanding i find.

That picture cries out for a caption of some kind lol

dobro · Feb 13, 2008

trojan said:
That picture cries out for a caption of some kind lol

"You're supposed to make me happy."

stewlsa · Feb 13, 2008

She is facing the bed and he is facing the table. Perhaps its one of work versus pleasure.

proserpine · Feb 13, 2008

I agree that #38 isn't about arguing or anger necessarily.However--Opposition, one of #38's typical names, is usually some form of anger, in truth.When someone says she's being oppositional or that someone else is, that's usually what they mean.
For myself, I have usually taken this Hexagram to mean that either inside myself or within another person, or organization, there are two opposite ways of thinking or doing things going on.
Plus, the eldest daughter is not there--so, we have two younger not- quite-as -capable people making decisions, and not agreeing nor having a higher purpose to turn to to help them resolve the stand-off.

Sparhawk · Feb 13, 2008

stewlsa said:
She is facing the bed and he is facing the table. Perhaps its one of work versus pleasure.

Work?? What work? Food!! He's hungry!

rosada · Feb 13, 2008

The picture seems to be of a husband and wife at odds with the implication that they should be united. I don't think this is what 38. is about. 37. Family was all about the Father and Mother issues. Now we've moved passed that. Now we're dealing with the children and how they create themselves within the context of the family where the world may see them as all one, but each child wants to see themselves as different, unique, separate. Often times these differances are defined in terms that imply opposites. We say one daughter is "The smart one," which of course implies the other is not so smart. (grrr)

If we continue with the idea that 37.Family also discribed the child growing in the womb then perhaps 38 can be seen as the stage where the new soul can be recognized even while the fetus is still in the mother.

charly · Feb 13, 2008

sparhawk said:
Work?? What work? Food!! He's hungry!

Luis:

There is no food in the table, it's no time of eating.
Maybe they are waiting that the night arrives.
Nobody seems to be very happy, but remember:

outer look is middle daughter → War!
inner look is younger daughter → Joy!
outer respectable, almost severe
inner looking for pleasure

Maybe at the evening the man will arrive, maybe not.

I believe that H.38 睽kui2 is not about divergences but about encounters, maybe strange encounters.

睽 ...
Phonetic: 癸 gui3 Signific: 目 mu4 eye
Etymology: Phonetic Signific, related to the eye 目 - strange to see
...
English Senses For: kui2
separated / alternate 暌 / in opposition / to squint / to stare at / unusual / strange

[One of the bronze characters:]

From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...spx?characterInput=+睽&submitButton1=Etymology

Modern character has three components:

at the left EYE: to see, to look, to meet
up to the right: FOOTSTEPS: to make a path?, to advance?, to behave?
down to the right: SKY/HEAVEN: ancestors?, spirits?, fate?

See how to climb to the sky.
See how to ascend to the heaven.
See how to surpass your ancestors.

Maybe little matters but strange indeed.

Yours,

Charly

maremaria · Feb 13, 2008

What you said Rosada , about children , it reminds me my two little nieces.(6 and 8) They are SO different personalities. Sometimes they look like the couple in Luis’s picture. Crossing their arms across their chest , turn their back to each other and stay stand still .They put a barrier between them and nothing is “moving”. Stubbornness in excess situation.
But the other times, when they combine their forces, they can make miracles . It so beautiful to see them learning from each other and accomplish things that they could done alone. The one is very social, the other is too shy. The shy one learns from the social one how to approach new people. There are so many things they can learn from each other but this can be accomplished only if they accept their difference. Small ones or big ones.

Having to cooperate with people thinking , acting, living in the opposite side from us is not always a bad situation. If we are not afraid that our individuality threaten by the other maybe there is a gain for us being there.

Maria

charly · Feb 13, 2008

rosada said:
... We say one daughter is "The smart one," which of course implies the other is not so smart. (grrr)...

Rosada:

Maybe daughters (or sisters) are symbols of the soul, all we have three souls, here there are two, the severe and the joyous. We are the smarter and the not so smart at the same time.

If we continue with the idea that 37.Family also discribed the child growing in the womb then perhaps 38 can be seen as the stage where the new soul can be recognized even while the fetus is still in the mother.

When they revolve inside the womb they can be recognized indeed.

Strange things happen after opposite persons encountered. A new life.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Feb 13, 2008

proserpine said:
... For myself, I have usually taken this Hexagram to mean that either inside myself or within another person, or organization, there are two opposite ways of thinking or doing things going on.
Plus, the eldest daughter is not there--so, we have two younger not- quite-as -capable people making decisions, and not agreeing nor having a higher purpose to turn to to help them resolve the stand-off.

Proserpine:

Yes, the eldest is not here, it's no matter of authority.

But the younger girls are quite able to do things.

They are stand-by. It's the moment previous to the action, previous to fight each other or previous to collaborate. The moment previous to the encounter of two persons still strange one for another.

Maybe they are not upset but scared.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Feb 13, 2008

maremaria said:
... Having to cooperate with people thinking , acting, living in the opposite side from us is not always a bad situation. If we are not afraid that our individuality threaten by the other maybe there is a gain for us being there.
Maria

María:

If we are not affraid it could be good, I believe that this is the advice of H.38.

The results could be pretty good for being opposite persons. Before it we know almost nothing, after it we have learned so much that we are almost wise.

...We were strangers in the night
Up to the moment
When we said our first hello.
Little did we know...

...It turned out so right,
For strangers in the night...

1966 - «Strangers in the night» by Charles Singleton (1) & Eddie Snyder
From: http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Atrium/1995/aastrang.html

_____________________
(1) «Charles “Hoss” Singleton is best remembered for his lyrics to Strangers in the Night, sung by Frank Sinatra.»
http://www.jaxhistory.com/journal3.html

No bad indeed.

Yours,

Charly

hilary · Feb 13, 2008

Thoughts from the character - eyes and an offering mat, the divination for the coming week -

Seeing differently... even when looking at the same things, seeing something else. And seeing the future, or a possible future, which is altogether different from the present you're looking at. Sometimes the one who sees differently is a visionary. (Or nutty as a fruitcake, as the normal people would say.)

In contrast with 37... well, the picture is the same, there is still a home defined by walls, the people inside still have common interests and a shared perspective. But this is the view from outside. The Sequence says that when the dao of the home is exhausted, one naturally turns away. It seems to be a natural human impulse:
"I know who I am because of where I fit in the group... but I also need to know who I am by how I'm different from the group."

As for the caption:
"From Mars. Definitely from Mars."

maremaria · Feb 14, 2008

charly said:
María:

.........
No bad indeed.

Yours,

Charly

Yes, but it takes two....

Maria

charly · Feb 14, 2008

maremaria said:
Yes, but it takes two....

Maria

Of course! :bows:

Charly

rosada · Feb 15, 2008

THE JUDGEMENT

OFPPOSITION. In small matters, good fortune.

When people live in opposition and estrangement they cannot carry out a great undertaking in common; their points of view diverge too widely, for that would limit increase to producing gradual effects in small matters. Here success can still be expected, because the situation is such that opposition does not preclude all agreement.

In general, opposition appears as an obstruction, but when it represents polarity within a comprehensive whole, it has also its useful and important functions. The oppositions of heaven and earth, spirit and nature, man and women, when reconciled, bring about the creation and reproduction of life. In the world of visible things, the principle of opposites makes possible the differentiation by categories through which order is brought into the world.

rosada · Feb 16, 2008

There is a lively discussion going on at Open Space in the Mayan thread. A perfect example I think of how to discuss Opposing points of view.

frank_r · Feb 16, 2008

Opposition 38 is one of the 12 karmick hexagrams 38,54 and 40 belong to 63. When placed in the Chinese clock it is the time from 15.00 till 17.00 in the afternoon.
So in that way 38 has a connection with the meridian from the bladder.
the bladder has a connection with 12 and with 38.

In acupuncture the bladder is the end of the line, the leader. And then the leader who is looking from a distance because he/she cann overlook all the situation. the bladder belongs to the element of water. The Bladder knows where we can get our feet out of the water, where there is land, where we can stand on without getting cold and wet feet.

Where the heart should be empty, the bladder is full. it is like the room that is already decorated and already full with furniture. When a person knows how things work he/she cann be a good leader.The energy from the bladder gives protection. The bladder is the minister of our memories.
It is the most outside layer and is the first protection against intruders. Bladder energy protects us against ilnesses.

I always found it very interesting that the two female trigrams of fire and lake give us the first protection, the first outside border. When these two forces work together we can protoct ourselves very well. Then our yinner feelings give us information about what can harm us and what not.

in 38 you see that there cann be independancy if the two yin trigrams fire and metal, two forces with a lot of power, work together. In the description of these two trigrams we see several weapons, fire has lanses and waepons and lake has a connection with the idea of autumn, destruction and with this smashing and breaking apart.

So when these forces work together they give a strong feeling of protection, and with this we can be ourselves without losing our deeper inner nurturing yin nature. Then we know how to deal with opposition without losing ourselves.

rosada · Feb 16, 2008

Interesting Frank! I was just recently comparing hexagram 1 and hex 2 and I think what you are saying about the yin energy being the line of first protection makes sence. Looking at hex.1.1
- Hidden dragon. Do not act -
as if it is discribing Yang holding back on putting any further warm energy into a situation and yet even this tensy withholding of energy shows up on the internal radar screen of super sensitive Yin, thus...
2.1
When there is hoarfrost underfoot,
solid ice is not far off.

That is, when the warm yang energy isn't there, yin starts to feel the draft immediately? When things aren't as they should be, you feel it in your gut before you see it on the outside?

rosada · Feb 18, 2008

THE IMAGE

Above, fire; below, the lake:
The image of OPPOSITION.
Thus amid all fellowship
The superior man retains his individuality.

The two elements, fire and water, never mingle but even when in contact retain their own natures. So the cultured man is never led into baseness or vulgarity through intercourse or community of interests with persons of another sort, regardless of all commingling, he will preserve his individuality.

The images belonging to the trigrams, whose tendencies combat each other, create the conditions of opposition, while their attributes lead to its being overcome. The joyousness of Tui symbolizes fellowship; the clarity of Li symbolizes clearly recognizable individuality.

The reason why the two daughters tend to opposition is that the eldest, whose authority would maintain order, is absent.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Feb 19, 2008

THE LINES

38.1
Remorse disappears.
If you lose your horse, do not run after it;
It will come back of its own accord.
When you see evil people,
Guard yourself against mistakes.

Even in times when oppositions prevail, mistakes can be avoided, so that remorse disappears. When opposition begins to manefest itself, a man must not try to bring about unity by force, for by so doing he would only bring about the contrary, just as a horse goes farther and farther away if one runs after it.
-Wilhelm

charly · Feb 19, 2008

rosada said:
38.1
Remorse disappears.
If you lose your horse, do not run after it;

Rosada:

the chinese text

悔hui3 regret / remorse /
亡wang2 to die / to disappear /
REMORSE DISAPPEARS

喪sang4: lost / to lose /mourning /
馬ma3: horse / horse chess piece /
勿wu4: do not /
逐zhu2: to pursue / to chase /
自zi4: self / reflexive particle /
復fu4: to return / to come back /
LOST HORSE DO NOT PURSUE, HIMSELF WILL RETURN

見jian4: to see / to meet /
惡e4: evil / foreigner / e-man /strange /
人ren2: man / person / people /
MEET STRANGE PEOPLE

无wu2 without / not / no /
咎jiu4 blame / mistake /
NO BLAME

To let go the horse is like to meet with strangers, no the usual, but nothing wrong. Let we diverge from the standard point of view, the horse will bring our reward, the strangers maybe too.

See this folktale:

The Lost Horse

A man ... skilled in interpreting events. One day ... his horse ran away to the nomads across the border. Everyone tried to console him, but his father said, "What makes you so sure this isn't a blessing?"

Some months later his horse returned, bringing a splendid nomad stallion... [the story continues, see the source text]

塞翁失馬
(sai weng shi ma)
... "Old Sai loses a horse". Old Sai is the wise man in the fable. The expression is used to remind others to take life in stride because things aren't really as good (or bad) as they seem ...

From: http://www.yellowbridge.com/literature/horse.php

Some remarks:

in the story the horse went to foreingers' lands → the strangers
in this story the horse is a mare (牝馬 pin ma like in H.2)
for a mare, a stallion is a blessing (maybe vice versa is too a blessing)
something to do with H.35 mating horses?
something to do with H.36/H.59 strong horse?

Among other things, H.38 is about horses and about strange thing that happened when horses disappears.

Yours,

Charly

frank_r · Feb 21, 2008

rosada said:
That is, when the warm yang energy isn't there, yin starts to feel the draft immediately? When things aren't as they should be, you feel it in your gut before you see it on the outside?

Nicely Put Rosada, when this opposition of water (lake) and fire you get a sort of 64. But now the lake(metal) deep contracted feelings are in the interior.
So this way you get a connection with a very deep part of yourself.
38 has always been a hexagram that in a way provoked me to have a lot thoughts.
For me is it also a hexagram that plays a important role in choosing the right partner and friends.
Feeling this deeper energy is also never loose your own individuality not by confronting but by staying in your own energy.

38.K'uei / Opposition

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