50. Ting / The Caldron

charly · Dec 19, 2008

diamanda said:
... fornication (from www.etymonline.com)
c.1300, from O.Fr. fornication, from L.L. fornicationem (nom. fornicatio), from
fornicari "fornicate," from L. fornix (gen. fornicis) "brothel," originally "arch,
vaulted chamber" (Roman prostitutes commonly solicited from under the arches
of certain buildings), from fornus "oven of arched or domed shape."...

Diamanda:

Maybe some reminiscences of Jung, maybe too much medieval readings...

From: http://www.angelfire.com/ct3/ascension/alchemy.html

The Sacred Marriage between Sun and Moon.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Dec 19, 2008

rosada said:
50. Group Consciousness

50.1
Discard all your preconceived notions of time and space and what is possible.
New information will be coming to you from the unconscious.
Watch for it.
-rosada

Rosada:

Indeed. I believe this is the sense of PUTTING ALL UPSIDE DOWN. Maybe putting ourselves upside down leads the blood to the brain improving percepcion capability?

But LEG UP or LEGS UP reminds me another things:

1) The seductive gesture of Aprodite with her sandal:

From: http://barefeet-asian.blogspot.com/2008_04_07_archive.html

2) ... or without her sandal, see the leg up:

From: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/F10.1.html

Being the DING a magic object, almost a living being, like all the things in the YI, being a mirror for our consciousness, he (or she) can exhibit different gestures for to communicate with us, gestures with LEGS or FEET among others.

If we see the DING as a GODDESS (1), maybe she is saying ADVANCE, GO FORWARD, as you say:

Discard all your preconceived notions of time and space and what is possible.
New information will be coming to you from the unconscious.
Rosada

Nice. See you at 50.2,

yours,

Charly

_____________________________
(1) also we can see the DING as a DOG making gestures with the LEGS (lines 1 and 4), the EARS (lines 3 and 5) and the TAIL (lines 5 and 6). If the dog has not three legs (maybe a crippled dog), he has fourth legs as we can see in the modern character for DING, not the ancient that has sometimes the shape of a CAT (see LiSe).

rosada · Dec 20, 2008

Nine in the second place means:

There is food in the TING.
My comrades are envious,
But they cannot harm me.
Good fortune.

In a period of advanced culture, it is of greatest importance that one should achieve something significant. If a man concentrates on such real undertakings, he may indeed experience envy and disfavor, but that is not dangerous. The more he limits himself to his actual achievements, the less harm can the envious inflict on him.

"There is food in the TING." Be cautious about where you go.
"My comrades are envious." This brings no blame in the end.

This line is firm and central, hence it symbolizes the contents of the TING. It forms a unit with the third and fourth lines, but as it stands in the relationship of correspondence to the ruler of the hexagram, it must go its own ways as prescribed for it by these relationships. This leads on the other hand to envy from its comrades, the two lines from which it is separated by inner relationships. But being quite free of possible entanglements and shielded by the strong relationships to the ruler, it need fear nothing.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Dec 21, 2008

50.2
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. :blush:

Trojina · Dec 21, 2008

Can't say at any time on receiving this line envy could possibly have been a factor...even with hindsight so I think the meaning is obscured or lost with the word 'envy'. Not that I'm saying it can't be so becasue it isn't my experience but I've heard others express the same too..or simply how do you read it where human emotions have no part in the picture anyway ? Actually I think i read it more as 'its nothing to do with them.. if people come into it don't take them into account they're not on your wave length' but I think theres a good deal of difference between that and envy.

my_key · Dec 21, 2008

Nice summary Rosada. I'm drawn to posting the Kipling poem here again (14 smiles thread) as this shows many of the ways in which you can be beautiful.

IF

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

50.2 -I've got the secret recipe and everyone else is trying to stop me from baking and having a slice of the cake. What they don't know is the secret is I've already eaten the cake.

Mike

meng · Dec 21, 2008

lol, Rosada

I regard line 2 as referring to inner balance and resulting fulfillment, without needing affirmation from outside influences.

my_key · Dec 21, 2008

"The last barrier to self-empowerment is the need for validation from others."
Jose Arguelles

jilt · Dec 22, 2008

When I was on university I had this line quite frequently. I was getting rather high grades and to my amazement my fellow students were a bit envious. e.g the normal chatter with all the implicit picking-order remarks became a bit more vigorous when I was in the neighbourhood. But the high grades were because I was realy interested in the things I was studying, it had quite an impact on me. Most around me did studied because of "they had to study something because all their peers did and their parents expected it" or because "it gave status". things like that. So, they were jealous, but could not hurt me with it, my motivation came from some kind of balance outside their perception and picking-order games.

rosada · Dec 22, 2008

Nine in the third place means:

The handle of the TING is altered.
One is impeded in his way of life.
The fat of the pheasant is not eaten.
Once rain falls, remorse is spent.
Good fortune comes in the end.

The handle is the means for lifting the TING. If the handle is altered, the TING cannot be lifted up and used, and, sad to say, the delicious food in it, such as pheasant fat, cannot be eaten by anyone.

This describes a man who, in a highly evolved civilization, finds himself in a place where no one notices or recognizes him. This is a severe block to his effectiveness. All of his good qualities and gifts of mind thus needlessly go to waste. But if he will only see to it that he is possessed of something truly spiritual, the time is bound to come, sooner or later, when the difficulties will be resolved and all will go well. The fall of rain symbolizes here, as in other instances, release of tension.
-Wilhelm

charly · Dec 22, 2008

rosada said:
Nine in the third place means:

The handle of the TING is altered.
One is impeded in his way of life.
The fat of the pheasant is not eaten.
Once rain falls, remorse is spent.
Good fortune comes in the end.

The handle is the means for lifting the TING... The fall of rain symbolizes here, as in other instances, release of tension.
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

Some quick observations:

Where W/B say HANDLE, the chinese text says 耳er3, EAR, parts of the cauldron are identified with parts of the body. Maybe EAR is metaphoric or maybe the cauldron is a person or an animal.

The pheasant is not FAT or grease, the chinese word is 膏 gao1, that could be FAT or could be PASTE, say paste of pheasant, also could be an ointment a remedy or a magic POTION.

And what happened with the remorse? It 虧 kui1, suffers loss, it DECREASE:

«JUST RAINING REMORSE DECREASE»

And the rain means, as W/B says, RELEASE OF TENSION, the «falling of the rain» means the SEXUAL CLIMAX.

I have the image of a DOG one ear turned down, stopping his action, not eating the pheasant, say STAND BY... till the rain falls.

The CAULDRON is waiting to see how do we behave.

Yours,

Charly

ravenstar · Dec 23, 2008

Originally posted by charly Where W/B say HANDLE, the chinese text says 耳er3, EAR, parts of the cauldron are identified with parts of the body. Maybe EAR is metaphoric or maybe the cauldron is a person or an animal.

Thought I'd jump in and add to this part of charly's wonderful post. Intuition connects with our conscious mind in the form we most easily accept it. Each of us process information from the outside world which is reflected on how we process information from the intuitive realm. Some 'hear' a message, others 'feel' or visualize.

Auditory, Kinesthetic, and visual are also called clairaudient, clairsentient and clairvoyant. Clairaudient, or 'clear hearing' is described in the Webster's dictionary as 'the act or the power of hearing something not present to the ear but regarded as having objective reality'. People who are clairaudient hear information being received from the intuitive mind. They are open to hearing information, even the one's they don't want to hear. But when our 'clear hearing' is blocked by negativity, fears, criticisms from ourselves or others, OR we have our ideas of how things should proceed, we have a tendency to resist Divine Guidance especially when the Divine's ideas or solutions differ from our own.

When we constantly hear unpleasant sounds the only way to block them is to become hard of hearing or deaf.

I wonder if the 'rain' could also be in the form of music? Soft background music can ease tension and increase one's ability to 'hear' heavenly orchestrated sound patterns and rhythms we usually tune out during the day.

Also, the ears help to maintain our sense of balance or state of equilibrium, we long to be heard, acknowledged and recognized. When we lack recognition we feel closed up inside, we are unable to share and feel alienated from others

But when someone really does hear us and takes in what we've had to say, there is a tremendous feelings of relief.....kind of like seeing a counsellor or psychologist........

Hmmm, where's Frank?

ravenstar

frank_r · Dec 23, 2008

ravenstar said:
Hmmm, where's Frank?

ravenstar

Hello Janice,

Yes I'm busy at the moment a lot going on here at home.
Good things, the children are home and my wife too. She is working in a school as a teacher.
They all have holidays and I'm still working some days.
I work at my house so there is not so much time at the moment.
I just read all the posts of 50.
Some interesting reflections of 50.
So it is a real 50 situation here at home.
But I will be back soon here.

Frank

my_key · Dec 23, 2008

Charly - the insights of your post make good reading. To add a small piece:

Animal symbolism of the pheasant deals with:

Using your gifts to get what you want.
Knowing when to express yourself and when to refrain from doing so.
Being aware of when to protect yourself and your loved ones.
Being creative, productive, and tapping into the passions that burn within you.

So the magic paste not eaten perhaps means that you are denying yourself in some way, not using the gifts you were born with, not expressing yourself assertively, not taking care of yourself properly and not really being enthusiastically creative.

Mike

rodaki · Dec 23, 2008

hello everyone,

how about looking at the fan yao 64.3 for this one?
Wihelm's is

Six in the third place means:
Before completion, attack brings misfortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

The time of transition has arrived, but one lacks the strength to complete the
transition. If one should attempt to force it, disaster would result, because
collapse would then be unavoidable. What is to be done? A new situation
must be created; one must engage the energies of able helpers and in this
fellowship take the decisive step-cross the great water. Then completion will
become possible.

and Bradford:

Frustration is impractical, so he gets a grip and handles things
better. Good ideas are those which work. Once across he can send gestures back.

:bows:
rodaki

frank_r · Dec 23, 2008

50.3

The first of the two central lines. It is reflecting our most inner part. As the 4th line is the line of the heart, the 3th is the line of the kidney the Will.To know what to do with your Will power.
The 3th line is the most ambitious line and is connected with hexagram 15. The hexagram of being modest.

Here it is changing in 64. All the lines have good resonating power but all the lines our also on the wrong spot. So everything is starting again from this point.
64 is also together with 63 a hexagram of becoming.The hexagrams with each others nucleur core.
when we have a look to this changing third line we can also have a look to the fan Yao as rodaki already pointed out. And also to the qian yao. These four together are having one theme as LiSe explained lately.

Here it is done by 50.3 - 49.4 - 64.3 - 63.4.
So the central lines of becoming, the lines of our deepest axis line 3 and 4 our kidney - will and our heart are changing.
When I look to the central theme of these four I see that we can find a new reality(50.3) when we can adapt to the time spirit(49.4), we change through experience(63.4) and understand that this change is necessary(64.3)
This change can be done if we listen carefully. Clear Hearing(as Janice wrote) is connected with the kidney and with this third line. Where the seeing, visualising part is done by the 4th line because the eye is more connected with the heart.

Frank

my_key · Dec 24, 2008

I was walking my dog earlier today and thinking about 50.3 and had this old song suddenly come into my head. It's more of a 50.1 or 50.2 theme - spookily I'd made mention of a wagon in my earlier posts . But it made me smile and I have been humming the tune for the rest of the day so I and thought I'd share before we went too far into 50.3 and beyond.

A rave from the grave - Three wheels on my Wagon by The New Christie Minstrels.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AgWKBi_3EF0&feature=related
,
Mike

my_key · Dec 24, 2008

Nine in the third place means:

The handle of the TING is altered.
One is impeded in his way of life.
The fat of the pheasant is not eaten.
Once rain falls, remorse is spent.
Good fortune comes in the end.

The musings from my dog walk were -

50.3 - Things have got way out of balance, to such an extent that you can't carry on like you have been. You are not listening to your inner self, ignoring your talents, not taking care of yourself and the things around you. Your world has gone pear shaped. All the tubes have got clogged up. You are going to need a drop of rain, or perhaps even a flash flood to wash away all the silt you have accumulated. Remember, though every cloud has a silver lining.

Take Care

Mike

maremaria · Dec 24, 2008

........if it rained today ,
i would go out for a walk.
but it didn't .....

So, no rain drops
in my face

If it rained today
i’d leave my umbrella home
Nothing should be between
Just the drops and me

(mine

)

meng · Dec 24, 2008

rosada said:
Nine in the third place means:

The handle of the TING is altered.
One is impeded in his way of life.
The fat of the pheasant is not eaten.
Once rain falls, remorse is spent.
Good fortune comes in the end.

(humor about growing old)

Nothing is where it used to be,
it slows me down.
The old pheasant sits around, getting fat.
Once remorse is spent,
good fortune comes.

ravenstar · Dec 24, 2008

frank_r said:
The first of the two central lines. It is reflecting our most inner part. As the 4th line is the line of the heart, the 3th is the line of the kidney the Will.To know what to do with your Will power.
The 3th line is the most ambitious line and is connected with hexagram 15. The hexagram of being modest.

Here it is changing in 64. All the lines have good resonating power but all the lines our also on the wrong spot. So everything is starting again from this point.
64 is also together with 63 a hexagram of becoming.The hexagrams with each others nucleur core.
when we have a look to this changing third line we can also have a look to the fan Yao as rodaki already pointed out. And also to the qian yao. These four together are having one theme as LiSe explained lately.

Here it is done by 50.3 - 49.4 - 64.3 - 63.4.
So the central lines of becoming, the lines of our deepest axis line 3 and 4 our kidney - will and our heart are changing.
When I look to the central theme of these four I see that we can find a new reality(50.3) when we can adapt to the time spirit(49.4), we change through experience(63.4) and understand that this change is necessary(64.3)
This change can be done if we listen carefully. Clear Hearing(as Janice wrote) is connected with the kidney and with this third line. Where the seeing, visualising part is done by the 4th line because the eye is more connected with the heart.

Frank

Thank you Frank for taking time out of your busy schedule to add your guidance and expertise in both the human energy field and the I Ching to this thread. I'm sure I can talk for everyone in saying we have definitely found a new reality and new knowledge from your posts.

ravenstar :bows:

rosada · Dec 24, 2008

Shucks, I usually let each line have center stage for two days and I just realized if i'd picked up the pace a bit we'd be on glorious 50.5 tomorrow instead of unfortunate 50.4. How's that for an example of "the fat of the pheasant not being eaten"? But hey, how about if we just power through 50.4 in one day? If there are no objections that's what I'll do. I'll post 50.4 now, but "once rain falls," once night falls, "remorse is spent," and we'll be done with it and I'll post 50.5 Christmas day. "Good fortune comes in the end"!

rosada · Dec 24, 2008

Nine in the fourth place means:

The legs of the TING are broken.
The prince's meal is spilled
And his person is soiled.
Misfortune.

A man has a difficult and responsible task {posting the hexagrams}
to which he is not adequate.{ :duh:

}
Moreover, he does not devote himself to it with all his strength but goes about with inferior people {

}; therefore the execution of the work fails.
In this way he also incurs personal opprobrium.
Confucius says about this line: "Weak character coupled with honored place, meager knowledge with large plans, limited powers with heavy responsibility, will seldom escape disaster." { :blush:

}

This line stands in the relationship of correspondence to the six in the beginning, the line suggesting the upturned legs of a TING. The latter situation is not of grave import, for the TING is still empty; here however, the matter is serious, since the TING contains food. It is therefore not simply an overturning: the legs of the TING are broken, and the prince's meal is spilled. In conformity with the place, there should be a relationship with the ruler of the hexagram, the six in the fifth place, either that of holding together or that of receiving. But the relationship with the six at the beginning interferes. This points to a disastrous split between character and position, between knowledge and aspirations, between strength and responsibility {

}.

rosada · Dec 24, 2008

The fourth position is the line of the minister and usually it is pretty benign. Perhaps the difficulties with line three and line four of this hexagram can be understood by considering that the over all message of this hexagram is the power of group consciousness. In line 3 one person alone is "impeded" - and I think it was interesting that at this point ravenstar felt a need for a voice for the group consciousness. At line 4 one minister alone is not up to the task of representing Group Consciousness. In a reading I suspect this line indicates the need to get group input.

my_key · Dec 24, 2008

50.4 - You have made choices that do not become you.The fan is really circulating the manure.

meng · Dec 24, 2008

When we move something we have grown accustomed to (line 3), say a lamp, the chance of an accident with the lamp goes up exponentially (line 4). So extra precaution should be taken.

It's very practical. Accidents do happen when things are moved around, away from their traditional place: a coffee table, a rug, the handle of a cooking pot.

Jung documented his dialogue with the IC, and when asking the Yi how it would be received in the west, he received 50.3. Now it's a matter of handling it and serving from it mindfully.

rosada · Dec 25, 2008

0 Six in the fifth place means:

The TING has yellow handles, golden carrying rings.
Perseverance furthers.

Here we have, in a ruling position, a man who is approachable and modest in nature. As a result of this attitude he succeeds in finding strong and able helpers who complement and aid him in his work. Having achieved this attitude, which requires constant self-abnegation, it is important for him to hold to it and not let himself be led astray.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Dec 25, 2008

"...he succeeds in finding strong and able helpers who complement and aid him in his work." Sounds like Saint Nick and the elves!

Merry Christmas everyone!

rosada · Dec 25, 2008

You know Meng, I think you've got it with recognizing 50.4 is about accidents that come with moving things around. If 50 is about Group Consciousness it would certainly make sense that there would be some bumps and stumbles as folks first attempt to work together - and then 50.5 would be about the group working together well.

Just saw an ad on television that seemed to capture the transition from 50.4 to 50.5:
The house looks like a disaster and the announcer is saying, "Don't worry about the mess, tonight watch Cary Grant."

rodaki · Dec 25, 2008

rosada said:
Just saw an ad on television that seemed to capture the transition from 50.4 to 50.5:
The house looks like a disaster and the announcer is saying, "Don't worry about the mess, tonight watch Cary Grant."

hello everyone,
I was thinking about dreaded 50.4 (Bradford's):

The young servant comes to believe he’s already learned and transformed enough,
so he starts to look out for things higher above, perhaps the position of royal chef.
But a master chef or alchemist is never done learning the basics. Creative arts and
sciences change postulates and premises too quickly. And a place of power is no
place to last without changing. The servant could not help but see this broken leg,
but feels compelled to serve the duke’s meal anyway. The meal becomes a stain.
Everything is sacrificed, the sacred is profaned. The shame comes too late and the
servant had best be packing for exile. The new staff has fewer inferior traits, as if
defects were burned off in some kind of crucible. It is good to rise to one’s limits,
even of competence. But true transformation will upgrade the limits themselves.

and what does one do when they find themselves bearing this fault . . I found the fan yao (Work on what has been spoiled 18.4) to be helpful (from Bradford's commentary)

There will always
be places to place and hide blame, or to shelve your honor and hide from yourself.
Humankind will never grow up in this way

So, luckily, the duke will not stay hungry even if there is a mess around, there are always more knowledgeable helpers coming to the rescue, but the young servant has a lot of cleaning up to do, has to go back and examine his/her given preconceptions about strengths and weaknesses . .
Still, the festivities are not impeded!

merry Christmas to everyone!

:bows:
rodaki

50. Ting / The Caldron

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