61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

[maremaria]

thanks Panther

 

[rosada]

Did people see the nearly full moon last night?!!!

Couple of more thoughts about the horse...
In 61.3 we have the couple perfectly mirroring each other. Would this line indicate the inner world for one brief shinning moment being perfectly mirrored by the outer world? Soulmates? And then with 61.4 the moment has passed and now we have the opposite. As we come closer to Inner Truth, to heaven, all is no longer in perfect alignment and that's okay. In heaven men and women are not married. The team disappears.
Thinking too about the idea of alcohol with this line. Perhaps there were too many shared goblets 61.2 - 61.3 and now the mind can no longer control the body.

I got to be the youngest daughter with my dad yesterday. He is a stern Quaker and I always tell him these terrible jokes with language he would never allow and he roars with laughter before he can stop himself. It was great.

rosada

 

[meng]

Did people see the nearly full moon last night?!!!

Caught it briefly as I bolted out the barn door.

 

[rodaki]

Did people see the nearly full moon last night?!!!


I got to be the youngest daughter with my dad yesterday. He is a stern Quaker and I always tell him these terrible jokes with language he would never allow and he roars with laughter before he stop himself. It was great.

rosada

hi Rosada great story this one with your dad

I saw the moon too . . sometimes when the moon is getting full it comes and takes away my sleep, hides it somewhere i can't see so usually i get out of bed and sit by my window until it hides behind the rooftops across the street . . then I can sleep again

 

[rosada]

61.5
Nine in the fifth place means:

He possesses truth,
Which links together.
No blame.

-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

61.5
Nine in the fifth place means:

He possesses truth,
Which links together.
No blame.

-Wilhelm

Rosada:

The firs statement:

有 you3: to have / there is / there are / [HE] POSSESSES
孚 fu2: trust // booty /captive / to capture / TRUTH
攣 luan2: twisted / bent / entangled / [WHIC] LINKS TOGETHER
如 ru2: as (if) / such as / [no rendering]

... is the same of 9.5, that W/B translated:

Nine in the fifth place means:
If you are sincere and loyally attached,

Nothing in the chinese text says if the subject is second or third person, I believe better not to specify the person. But why did W/B translate the same sentence different in 9.5 and 61.5?

Yours,

Charly

 

[my_key]

Hi Charley
Perhaps another rendering is something like "There is treasure in the rich tapestry". The "twisted / bent / entangled" aspect sort of says to me that the way to inner truth is not a straight line and it contains many complexities.
Taking a stab at your query on 9.5 and 61.5. Here this is about finding the safe port inside the maelstrom of self doubts and fears- seeing and accepting the best in all situations and being aware that that is the treasure within yourself. While in 9.5 there is perhaps a sense of having found the treasure, you give it out honestly into the world.
It's worth remembering that the treasure is not always the nice smooth gold pendant it can equally be the rusty old shovel, but you never quite know what you will find when you go on a treasure hunt. It's calling the shovel a spade when it's needed. The treasure is trust, to find the trust in yourself in 61 and the trust that others have in you sailing a straight course through the stormy worldly seas in hex 9.

Mike

 

[rosada]

I wonder if some insight could be had considering that 9.5 The Taming Power of the Small leads to 26. The Taming Power of The Great.

9.5 If you are sincere and loyally attached you are rich in your neighbor.

So if the Small is sincere, than he is able to align with others, contribute his Truth, and thus link with the neighbor and tap into the Group Wisdom (the Image for 26). So it makes sense by being Sincere at the time of 9.5 Taming Power of The Small the message would translate to Being Rich in One's neighbor.

Now here at 61.5 Wilhelm has translated the Chinese as "He possesses truth which links together. No. blame." Could this have something to do with 61.5 leading to 41. Decrease? Like somehow emphasizing No blame for the Decrease? Perhaps a circumstances where after all that drinking in 61.2 - 6.4 the superior man has empathy with his neighbor, does not blame him, but decides to decrease his own drinking?

So in 9.5 Sincerity/Truth leads to a stronger connection with others, but at 61.5 Possessing Truth decreases the connection?

rosada

 

[rosada]

When I first read Mike's post I really didn't understand what he was getting at. Then I wrote out my own thoughts. After tinkering with my own ideas for a bit I went back and read what Mike had to say. This time his words made sense! So now I'm wondering if this is what 9.5/61.5 is about. With 9.5 one first looks to find agreement with others and this leads to shared beliefs, 26. But with 61.5 the person needs to know their own truth so they can understand what the other person's viewpoint is, but as 61.5 > 41. Decrease, the two need not necessarily agree. So it seems that with 9.5 there is a feeling of wanting to find acceptance, a similar belief system, whereas with 61.5 there is a maturity now that isn't threatened by a differing point of view, and indeed enjoys having alternative perspectives to bounce ideas off of.

rosada

 

[rosada]

This describes the ruler who holds all elements together by the power of his personality. Only when the strength of his character is so ample that he can influence all who are subject to him, is he as he needs to be. The power of suggestion must emanate from the ruler. It will firmly knit together and unite all his adherents. Without this central force, all external unity is only deception and breaks down at the decisive moment.
-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

... the way to inner truth is not a straight line and it contains many complexities...
... in 9.5 there is perhaps a sense of having found the treasure... that the treasure is not always the nice smooth gold pendant it can equally be the rusty old shovel, but you never quite know what you will find when you go on a treasure hunt...

Hi, Mike:

I like too much your SINUOUS WAY and your TREASURE HUNT. Of course, it makes sense both for H.9 and H.61.

One of my aunts used to say «GOD WRITES STRAIGHT OVER TWISTED ROWS», the twisted were the nephews.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

...
Thinking too about the idea of alcohol with this line. Perhaps there were too many shared goblets 61.2 - 61.3 and now the mind can no longer control the body.
...

Hi, Rosada:

I believe that wine is essential in H.61 because it means the acceptance of our own weakenesses, access to a different state of consciousness, brotherhood recognition...

But why the cranes invite us?

ABOUT CRANES
(a brochure)

Cranes and singing birds appear already in the Odes, sometimes promising, sometimes missing the good times of love.

BAI HUA: ... the crane is in the forest, the great man does indeed toil and trouble my heart...
translated Legge

It must be said that the chinese text says LARGE MAN instead of the more spiritual GREAT MAN. A girl is speaking, maybe.

In HE MING:

The crane cries... her voice is heard in the sky... [remember 61.6] The fish ... lies hid in the deep. Pleasant is that garden...
translated Legge

You know what is the garden where the crane sings and the fish goes deep. It means LOVE.

DONG SHAN: ... The cranes were crying... our wives were sighing in their rooms...
translated Legge

Say, husbands have gone to war, wives sight because hardly they could return. This is another crane, similar but not the same of H.61.

In FA MU birds, no cranes, are singing, men heard them and trace a moral: why not to join in brotherhood ending in spirituality, harmony and peace?

Rutt comments that song:

... birds calling in a dark valley initiate a song giving an invitation to a CLAN PARTY with WINE drinking
Rutt, page 354

People that have read Asterix know how these clannish parties end. Almost like orgies!


Here part of the argument of FAN MU:

1) woodcutters are calling «DING-DING», they say, another birds respond «ying-ying» (1).

2) the song (or the poet) informs us that YING cry means that the bird is seeking friends (2), maybe seeking a mate.

3) the song (or the poet) extracts a moral if a bird can, «shall a man not seek to have his friends?» [Legge].


Now, hear what the birds were saying:

The woodcutter: TALL-MEN, TALL-MEN ♪.
The callig birds: SEEKING- FRIENDS, SEEKING-FRIENDS ♫ (3)

If you relate this talk with images like the SECRET VALLEY ant the TREE TRUNK, you will conclude that these birds have a fixed idea (4).

Then, the clannish party would become almost an orgy (5) finishing only at 61.6, and maybe you remember that COCKS crow in ancient CHINA for warning lovers that the security of night is coming to an end, as it's attested in the Odes.

Even in Japan CRANES are MESSENGERS of LOVE.

Yours,

Charly

___________________________________
(1) You know that reduplications in chinese used to be onomatopoeias and have little to do with the sense of the word when used alone. DING-DING and YING-YING are only sounds, so the birds sing.

(2) that is the meaning of the word YING used alone. [DING was typed mistakenly].

(3) It is a common place that sometimes the sing of birds is immitated by the human language, in my country the kiscadees say «bí... cho feo!», «bí... cho feo!» [ugly worm], in another countries they use another languages.

(4) sexual allusions are almost evident, birdcall is part of bird's courtship ritual, they are seeking for mates.

(5) clannish banquet:

From: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/...o-know-i-learned-from-asterix-comics-the-end/

 

[rosada]

61.5
0 Nine in the fifth place:
a) He possesses truth, which links together.
. No blame.
b) "He possesses truth, which links together." The place
. is correct and appropriate.

The image of linking together derives from the meaning of the upper trigram Sun, rope, and that of the upper nuclear trigram Ken, hand. For the rest, the influence of this line as ruler of the hexagram is shown by the correct, central, and honored position it occupies.
-Wilhelm

 

[rodaki]

. . as far as I can understand this line it seems to me like it is either that one's truth is so strong that it can survive deprivation or that one's truth will come about by giving something up . .
Bradford writes: "Being true is not to be told what the truth is: it is to learn who we are and then stay true to our nature"
and Richmond:

Intuitive feeling is quiet in this tao as we quietly trust the life force, not separately feeling it. In this moving line we are involved in allowing the life force to carry us without distinguishing what we feel about it and so we become less separate
Chinese image:
Genuine truth
Drawn together
No error
(I Ching Oracle)


When he finds his symbol-forming feelings to be his reality he stands at at doorway looking both in and out. it is the heart of his life.
(Language of the Lines)

p.s.: . . orgies in Asterix???

. . ils sont fous ces Romains!! (Idefix)

 

[flor05]

Rodaki, interesting point there.
I just got 61.5 (and 61.1) on a reading and I thought the exact same thing. I have a very strong feeling that contrasts with apparent reality, so I'm not sure if that line is telling me:

a) that there's truth in "my truth" (so be persevering) or;
b) I have to give something up to align "my truth" with how other's see it (and compromise to seek truth).

Does anyone have a different approach on it?

 

[my_key]

Bradford writes: "Being true is not to be told what the truth is: it is to learn who we are and then stay true to our nature"

Rodaki - thanks for posting this (and Bradford for writing it in the first place) and the quote from Richmond. "Genuine truth" so what we have here is not the "un-genuine" truth - the false gods that are so easy to bow down to. Here we seem to have the real "road less travelled". There is no need to believe the truths of others, of society, of politicians....the lables that have been stuck on us by ourself or by others as we have lived our life. Learn how to peel them off and see what shines underneath. We gently penetrate from above to reveal the joy within and give praise for what we find.
The fan yao 41.5 is about stepping into your fate....truely accepting that the cards that have been dealt you will win the jackpot. As you turn the cards over and see their faces they are all just pictures of you - in spades. (Perceived warts and all). Accept that this is the best hand that we each can be dealt.

Mike

 

[rosada]

Yes Mike, I think you are on to something here. I really like that "stepping into your fate" idea.

41.5
Someone does indeed increase him.
Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it.
Supreme good fortune.

I'm going to move ahead and post 61.6 later on today but before I do i just wanted to comment that folks might want to look about them at this point in our journey (note whom you're with, where you're at) as 61.5 seems to be the apex of our trip.

rosada

 

[charly]

... Bradford writes: "Being true is not to be told what the truth is: it is to learn who we are and then stay true to our nature" ...
... orgies in Asterix??? ... ils sont fous ces Romains!! (Idefix)

Dear Dora:

The old Brad has reason although people use to think different, to learn who we are has a cost and much times we are not willing to pay, we use to prefer continuing with our old points of view, our prejudices, our old clothes.

Maybe getting our own truth is not matter of merit but a result of a gift or of a recognition, something that happen to us like an initiation. Of course, initiations require ordeals and ordeals are seen like orgies for people that do not participate.

Almost all ancient rite belonging to the religion of defeated peoples become an orgy, so passed with wine and sex. Ancient Shangs were accused of making people drink from a lake full of wine, maybe an ancient rite.

You would not trust the sort of things that Asterix's comrades did when Uderzo were not seeing. Goscinny knew it, but caried with him the secret to the tomb.

Didn't you wonder why is the poet tied to a tree while the peasants enjoy the banquet? I believe, a sample of intellectuals repression. The Gauls didn't like to hear the truth about themselves while they were enjoying food and wine. Because poetry always says the truth, isn't it?

... And don't ask Idefix, he's almost a child.

Best wishes,

Charly

P.D.:
See...

Recurring terminology in Asterix:
... Orgy: Any kind of party. No sex need be involved...
From: http://asterix.openscroll.org/terminology.html

... and...

Asterix, especially the later albums, is absolutely hilarious, owing to the genius of René Goscinny. But he does it all with well-known techniques of comedy.

For example, the line "orgies, orgies, we want more orgies" is repeated over and over by an actor, during rehearsal for a play designed to shock the audience. It's the contrast between the content of this line and the matter-of-fact way in which the director is trying to figure out his scene ("Perhaps you could throw something at him at this point? A tomato, or something.") that creates the fun. We have all the techniques: repetition, exaggeration, dead pan delivery (the scene is presented as if we're watching a documentary), silly detail (the tomato).
From: http://everything2.com/title/Asterix

Ch.

 

[diamanda]

Charly you have such a knack for hidden meanings that nobody knew were there!

I just had a look at the original definition of orgy (όργιον), and it is so close to 61:2 -
although in the very original sense of the word, as it was meant by ancient people
(with an Asterix clue too!).

So here goes, all from the same root (Ancient Greek meanings):

orgeon (οργεών) =
1. person who performed sacrifices, a kind of priest
2. a poet (!)

orgi (οργή) =
1. natural impulse; one's nature, disposition, temper, nature, heart (61 indeed!)
2. passion, wrath, furore

orgitis (οργητής) =
a passionate man

orgia (όργια) = (usually plural, 'orgies')
1. "secret rites, secret worship, practised by the initiated alone"
(... "partly shewn to the uninitiated, but left unexplained" - 61:2 indeed!).
2. worship, rites, sacrifices, any mysteries without reference to religion (!?)

It always makes me feel happy when I receive 61:2 as an answer.

 

[rodaki]

Dear Dora:

You would not trust the sort of things that Asterix's comrades did when Uderzo were not seeing. Goscinny knew it, but caried with him the secret to the tomb.

Didn't you wonder why is the poet tied to a tree while the peasants enjoy the banquet? I believe, a sample of intellectuals repression. The Gauls didn't like to hear the truth about themselves while they were enjoying food and wine. Because poetry always says the truth, isn't it?

... And don't ask Idefix, he's almost a child.

Best wishes,

Charly

dear Charly,

i rest my case, there's 'orgies' in Asterix (thank you for the amazing links, I actually remembered the actor/director episode -what a flashback! )

as far as the tied up bard, I thought that it was just a case of shutting out the possibility of 61.6 ( . . this is Cacofonix after all, and most of the times he was out of tune . . but maybe the Gauls were afraid what he might say under the influence?? could be . . there is a saying in Greece that goes 'from the young and the foolish do we learn the truth' but there's also another one about philosophizing under wine influence, which is called 'vine-philosophizing', it's meaning being very close to 'vain-philosophizing' . . who can tell what the artist thought??)

and Idefix . . can he really stay a child if he gets stuck to an idee fixe? I wonder . .


I 'm still having trouble though to disassociate 'orgy' from its most obvious meaning . . Diamanda, thank you for opening up the goody bag . . I'll play the game of the name . .

-Οργια (orgies): the orgies of Bacchus, from the furious transports of worshipers(1)/also related to εργω, εοργα (ergo, eorga) (2)
(etymonline.com gives "1561, orgies (pl.) "secret rites in the worship of certain Gk. and Roman gods," especially Dionysus, from M.Fr. orgies (c.1500), from L. orgia, from Gk. orgia (pl.) "secret rites," from PIE base *werg- "to work" (see urge (v.)). The singular, orgy, was first used in Eng. 1665 for the extended sense of "any licentious revelry." OED says of the ancient rites that they were "celebrated with extravagant dancing, singing, drinking, etc.," which gives "etc." quite a workout.")

In general, 'orgy' belongs to a wide group of terms that cluster around the meanings of 'work' most often extending towards 'working the earth', see names Ge-orgia (agriculture) and Ge-orge (the one who works the earth). More specifically, the root of the word is found in two branches of signification (noted as (1) and (2) in the above meaning of 'orgies')

case (1):
-central term ορεγω/ορεγομαι (orego/oregomai) (v): stretch out in a line/ reach out, offer, give/ reach to, desire to obtain/ modern have appetite/hunger for
linked to
-οργη (orgi): impulse, temperament, temper/ violent passion, anger (see 'the furious transports of worshipers')
-οργαω (orgao)(v): feel ardent tendency, desire, passion for (hence of trees, to burst with a kind of eagerness, swell and teem with vegetable power, become fruitful or stretch out)

case (2):
-central term οργαζω (orgazo)(v): to batter, beat, soften
linked to
-εργω, εοργα, οργα (ergo, eorga, orga)(v): to work well/ sacrifice
-εοργη (eorgi) : pestle, pounder, spoon
-οργανον (organon): instrument, tool, machine
(going even further back we find εργω(ergo): 1)shut in or out from ερω/ερυω(ero/eryo): enclose, guard in, 2) plow from ερω/ειρω(ero/eiro): join, bind, string together, weave/ speak, enquire, join words together


So we have, on the one hand, the wild, impulse-ridden cries induced by celebration and wine (Bacchus is roman for Dionysus), and on the other, the toiling sacrifice, the one that binds, that shuts in to protect or shuts out to confine and prevent, that which joins words and weaves . . I'll leave the associations to further meanings and lines to those who know better. Obviously wine seems to have a special meaning for line 2, although it can just be (as in my experience) simply coffee . .

. . going back to the bounded bard . . maybe there's a time for drinking wine and another one for joining words? . .

 

[Sparhawk]

I've never smoked in my life but, suddenly, I've the urge for a cigarette...

 

[rosada]

61.6
Nine at the top means:
Cockcrow penetrating to heaven.
Perseverance brings misfortune.

The cock is dependable. It crows at dawn. But it cannot itself fly to heaven. It just crows. A man may count on mere words to awaken faith. This may succeed now and then, but if persisted in, it will have bad consequences.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

61.6
Nine at the top:

a) Cockcrow penetrating to heaven.
. Perseverance brings misfortune.

b) "Cockcrow penetrating to heaven." How could such a one last long?

The cock is associated with the trigram Sun. It wants to fly to heaven, but that it cannot do. Hence only the cry issues forth (Sun means a shouting that penetrates everywhere, like the wind). This means an exaggeration: the expression is stronger than the feeling. It creates false pathos, because it is not to be reconciled with inner truth. In the long run misfortune results. The line is too strong in its exposed position and is therefore no longer carried by the strength of the hexagram, hence this misfortune.
-Wilhelm

 

[my_key]

61.6 - Do not make too big a thing of whether or not you have found or are living your inner truth. By staying in your head, you may miss the joy of what is truly in your heart.

 

[Trojina]

61.6 just shut up and stop going on about it, stop pleading either in your head or out loud it doesn't get you anywhere..give it a rest. The intensity or even sincerity of the heartfelt pleading makes no difference to anything here just like the cockerel crowing doesn't make the sun rise




You know maybe we should all do our own commentaries on each line lol

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing 61.5 and 61.6 a "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach." or "Those who have a life are out there living it and those who don't are giving talks about it."

Anyway, yes, Trojan, I agree and encourage everyone reading these pages to record their own interpretations, experiences, of the lines without concern as to whether your take coincides with anyone else's. The record may prove to be of help later on down the road.

Well, I guess it's time to move on to 62. Preponderance of The Small. Interesting how 61 ends with the cock wanting to fly to heaven and 62. has the flying bird bringing the message down to earth.

rosada

 

[my_key]

61.6 just shut up and stop going on about it, stop pleading either in your head or out loud it doesn't get you anywhere..give it a rest. The intensity or even sincerity of the heartfelt pleading makes no difference to anything here just like the cockerel crowing doesn't make the sun rise

You know maybe we should all do our own commentaries on each line lol

Hi Trojan
You reminded me here of something an old friend used to say about when I was wrestling with a problem. Rather than deal with it myself I should employ a SUMO - the best wrestlers that there are !!
SUMO?....Shut Up, Move On.:bag:
Mike

 

[Lavalamp]

THE IMAGE

Wind over lake: the image of INNER TRUTH.
Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
In order to delay executions.

-Wilhelm

This means I think "to suspend judgement." When you are counseling people you have to suspend judgement in order to have real communication, and to be able to help them. It could be criminal, or personal, drugs whatever. Trying to help people grow, you don't get anywhere by judging them, when you are trying to take care of young people you have to be able to do this. At least, it is a type of group therapy approach, though there is also an entirely judging based type of group therapy as well used in heavy residential treatment programs based on the Synanon model.

I had a conversation with myself the other day, I said to myself "You like to think you don't judge people, but really, you DO judge people." And I answered myself "Well I try to consciously suspend judgement of others, and apply judgement only to myself." I'm not sure I was entirely convinced though...

- LL

 

[bradford]

This means I think "to suspend judgement." When you are counseling people you have to suspend judgement in order to have real communication, and to be able to help them. It could be criminal, or personal, drugs whatever. - LL

Indeed. It's really easy for the new age folks to get the wrong idea about "inner truth." Anybody leaning towards solipsism or narcissism is going to read this as finding the absolute truth within. In fact, it says that we each have our own perspective and our own limited and relative truths and we cannot just generalize that to others. We need pig mind to understand pigs and fish mind to understand fish. We really need to hold back and not jump to conclusions that others see things the same as we do. Other truths can still be falsehoods in an absolute sense, but at least they warrant a closer look.

 

[peter2610]

Yes and in a sense this could be said to reveal an intrinsic fundamental dichotomy within the human condition. The deeper we penetrate and understand the relative truths of others, the greater our ability to walk with them and share their reality, but this “superior clarity” comes only as we relinquish the grip of relative values within ourselves and attain the condition of “non-self”. By a sacrifice of self we approach universal reality.