61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

[pantherpanther]

61.3 is precisely the challenge that faces the individual if he chooses to become aware of her/his relation to Tao and others. It is poignantly described in a paper on Katherine Mansfield: she sees the need to work consciously from her inner self's impartiality, not subjectively as before.

http://books.scoop.co.nz/2009/11/22/mansfields-russian-influence/

...Shortly before her death in 1923 Katherine Mansfield told Alfred Orage
that she now believed the role of a writer is to communicate an attitude
to the reader: "An artist communicates not his vision of the world, but
the attitude which results in his [sic] vision; not his dream, but his
dream-state; and as his attitude is passive, negative, or indifferent,
so he reinforces in his readers the corresponding state of mind." She
called her previous attitude "a little mischievous", calling her 'slices
of life' "partial" and even "misleading". According to Orage she said
"my attitude stood in need of a change if it was to become active
instead of passive." She had been a "selective camera without a creative
principle". Her aim was to widen the scope of her camera and to employ
it - actively - for a conscious purpose, "that of representing life not
only as it appears to a certain attitude, but as it appears to another,
a different attitude, a creative attitude."

 

[rosada]

To get down to the Inner Truth of a matter one often needs to make a special effort to become calm, to meditate. Further, much wise advice recommends holding off responding to situations immediately - for example "Sleep on it" "Wait and see". As rodaki points out, in line 3 here we are dealing with the very easily influenced top water of the Lake and thus a sense of people bouncing energy off each other - not at all a calm meditative state! Perhaps this line indicates we need to separate for a bit to get a calm perspective.

rosada

 

[pantherpanther]

rosada,
Thanks for acknowledging. I noted you posted Wilhelm's reading on 61.3 (and on "Moderation" ) The line says that is "the way the way things are." It doesn't suggest what can be done to get beyond it.It's La vie quotidienne.
Being calm and meditation is your approach. The Yi suggests ways in many other lines. They suggest what can lead to separation from the passive emotionality and lead to transformation.
Mansfield, in her crisis was seeking how to transform her art and herself from the spiritually passive and subjective to the active and creative. To show a deeper representation of life than a B movie that thrills and frightens and feeds emotions. The researcher makes an insightful comment in his paper: Perhaps every true artist at the stage of true creativity is at that point [for the "robber on the cross"], that "moment of death".

 

[rosada]

61.3
# Six in the third place:
a) He finds a comrade.
. Now he beats the drum, now he stops.
. Now he sobs, now he sings.

b) "Now h beats the drum, now he stops. " The place is not appropriate.

A yielding line in a firm place at the high point of joyousness suggests a lack of self-control. The line is attracted by the nine at the top but finds no footing there, because attractions are contrary to the spirit of the hexagram. It also fails to attach itself to the neighboring six in the fourth place (no doubt the comrade referred to), which is of like kind.
. Drumming in ancient China was the signal for advance; a retreat, or cessation of an attack, was indicated by the striking of a metal gong. This line stands in the two nuclear trigrams Chen (the Arousing) and Ken (Keeping still). The alternation of sobbing and laughing is derived from the primary trigram Tui and the nuclear trigram Chen.

-Wilhelm

 

[pantherpanther]

rosada,
Wilhelm relates the line 61.3 to the spirit of the hexagram.. The place is not appropriate. So there is a problem.

rodaki quotes Richmond on the same line:
The 'other' that we meet creates polarity and the world of pendulum swinging from one pole to the other. When we do not remain centred but project our self into attitudes this image symbolizes the experience we have.
I Ching Oracle

This seems to indicate the state of projecting onto others what is in ourselves. Being "in love," fearing an imagined "enemy" are obvious examples. What is more difficult to see is that characterizes how we live and see others and imagine how they see us.

 

[rosada]

Yes, I'm seeing now that to just chill or detach is not the appropriate response to this line.
Even though it is inevitable you wont be able to hit all the balls just right, ya still gotta get in the game.

rosada

 

[rosada]

Someone just posted this on the survey thread as their reason for answering questions in "Shared readings." I thought it made great sense for 61.3...

"Sometimes it is because I am groping towards an understanding and I want to bounce off other people's answers and let them bounce off mine. It's great for learning."
- Lucia

rosada

 

[rosada]

61.4
# Six in the fourth place means:

The moon nearly at the full.
The team horse goes astray.
No blame.

-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

To intensify the power of inner truth, a man must always turn to his superior, from whom he can receive enlightenment as the moon receives light from the sun. However, this requires a certain humility, like that of the moon when it is not quite full. At the moment when the moon becomes full and stands directly opposite the sun, it begins to wane. Just as on the one hand we must be humble and reverent when face to face with the source of enlightenment, so likewise must we on the other renounce factionalism among men. Only by pursuing one's course like a horse that goes straight ahead without looking sidewise at its mate, can one retain the inner freedom that helps one onward.
-Wilhelm

 

[meng]

line 4

Conformity isn't going to help this horse so much as breaking away from the pack will. It's like leaving behind an old church congregation which won't outgrow it's white picket fence, when you're hungering for that greener grass over yon hill.

 

[charly]

61.4
# Six in the fourth place means:

The moon nearly at the full.
The team horse goes astray.
No blame.

-Wilhelm

Ros.:

Maybe Wilhelm is going astray. See the chinese text (in uppercase, W/B):

月 yue4: moon // month / [THE] MOON
幾 ji1: almost / nearly // a few /several / NEARLY
望 wang4: full moon // hope / expect / [AT THE] FULL

馬 ma3: horse / horse chess piece / HORSE
匹 pi3: mate / one of a pair / [THE] TEAM
亡 wang2: to die / to disappear / to vanish / GOES ASTRAY

无 wu2 / without / not / no / avoid / NO
咎 jiu4 / blame / to blame / wrong / BLAME​

If we remember LI PO, the MOON fits very well with the state of DRUNKENNESS we would get after accepting the CRANE's invitation. And after so much DRUMMING, SINGING, SOBBING and STOPPING it's not strange that we LOSE the COMPOSURE or even a HORSE.

The responsibility is OURS, nothing to do with a FAULT of the poor HORSE! It was written that we lose him.

In the midst of the night, with only one horse, alone with our loyal horse or mare, say only with our own resources, facing what will follow, facing our destiny.

Almost HELPLESS, without any OUTER HELP.

NO WRONG!

FROM: http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090919/mUO5xYMCPr.jpg

FROM: http://gtob.sdnews.com.cn/soc.sdnews.com.cn/2009/3/11/735012.html


Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Usually I wait a day before posting the second part of the Wilhelm comments but it seemed appropriate to include them now while we are so thick into just what this stray horse business is all about....

61.4
# Six in the fourth place:

a) The moon nearly at the full.
. The team horse goes astray.
. No blame.

b) "The team horse goes astray." It separates from its kind and turns upward.

The team horse is the sixth in the third place. But the fact that there is similarity in kind has no determining effect. The line is correct in its place and has a receiving relationship to the ruler of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place, whom it serves as minister. Hence the turning away from its mate of like kind toward what is above.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

It sounds like Wilhelm is saying that the horse represents the man who must follow the leader/ the truth and not be concerned with what others are doing, but this does not account for the word "astray." I mean, following the truth doesn't sound like going astray.

Charly, it seems you have given the lines a completely different meaning, saying that the horse is just a horse - doesn't represent the man, and it is going astray because the man drank too much and that the phrase "no blame" means it's not the horse's fault.

So what does this line mean???

Meanwhile I'm going to going astray myself here for a few days so if I don't get back to a computer right away I'll talk to you all next week.

Happy Thanksgiving, Everybody!
Rosada

 

[pantherpanther]

We are "the horse." It is the essential human being, which we have in common. Although we dream we are separate and unique. The Sun knows our dreams are just dreams. "Follow the Sun."

 

[meng]

I am the walrus - goo goo ga joob!

 

[my_key]

Conformity isn't going to help this horse so much as breaking away from the pack will. It's like leaving behind an old church congregation which won't outgrow it's white picket fence, when you're hungering for that greener grass over yon hill.

You old rebel, you.
Just a small point of mixing your metaphors....horses come in herds and wolves come in packs. So perhaps.....
61.4 All those years of baying at the moon and now the choice is ours. To follow the yellow brick road.
(See thats how to do it without mixing your metaphors)

Mike

 

[meng]

I stand corrected. :bows:

 

[my_key]

I am the walrus - goo goo ga joob!

I stand corrected. :bows:

Remind me........How exactly do corrected walruses stand?

 

[charly]

... Charly, it seems you have given the lines a completely different meaning, saying that the horse is just a horse - doesn't represent the man, and it is going astray because the man drank too much and that the phrase "no blame" means it's not the horse's fault...

Rosada:

Maybe I was wrong, I read to GO ASTRAY in a moral sense, the horse taking a BAD WAY, abandoning the rider, possibly it only meant that the horse went far without rider (1).

The HORSE is one of a pair of horses, then one horse remains, maybe the more loyal or the more brave.

We arrive here with a pair of horses, we are ALONE in the middle of the night with FEW RESOURSES, one horse (I never thinked he was the man) and our own skills, no more.

We are facing the UNKNOWN almost helpless. This is NO WRONG (nothing to do with blame or fault) because this is an ORDEAL from which we shall exit transformed for good or for bad.

We are expossed to the process of INITIATION. We count only with our own strenght and skills and the help of ONE HORSE, maybe only a horse or maybe the horse represents our own endurance, I don't know.

Of course, only a possibility among too many possibilities.

Yours,
and bon voyage!

Charly

P.D. (Happy Thanksgiving, Everybody! Rosada) AND FOR YOU

fROM: http://www.nipic.com/show/3/86/fcfe368ad4c79fe2.html

____________________
(1)

stray: c.1300, aphetic of O.Fr. estraier "wander about," lit. "go about the streets," from estree "route, highway," from L.L. via strata "paved road" (see street). On another theory, the O.Fr. is from V.L. *estragare, a contraction of *estravagare, representing L. extra vagari "to wander outside" (see extravagant). Fig. sense of "to wander from the path of rectitude" is attested from early 14c. The noun meaning "domestic animal found wandering" is earlier (early 13c.), from O.Fr. estraié "strayed," pp. of estraier. The adj. is first recorded c.1600.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=stray

 

[charly]

We are "the horse." It is the essential human being, which we have in common. Although we dream we are separate and unique. The Sun knows our dreams are just dreams. "Follow the Sun."

Do you mean that we have disappeared? Nobody's perfect!

Yours,

Charly

 

[rodaki]

have a happy journey Rosada!


Bradford:

Most humans excepted, we’ll count on
things to be simply themselves, to see by their own lights. If there is any wrong here
it is in the driver’s ideas of what the horse ought to be.

:bows:


p.s.: this line had showed up for me when I had to make a difficult but crucial turn, risk many of the standards that were making up my life and it did feel sort of a gamble. Not claiming this is always the case, but I haven't regretted it yet . . Wondering how others have experienced this line -if you would like to share . .

 

[pantherpanther]

Do you mean that we have disappeared? Nobody's perfect!

Yours,

Charly

Charly,

RE: [Originally Posted by pantherpanther
We are "the horse." It is the essential human being, which we have in common. Although we dream we are separate and unique. The Sun knows our dreams are just dreams. "Follow the Sun."]

The horse is the sense of self we are born with . It is covered over by
education and its growth is neglected. Personality or personalties claim
center stage. Yet it is who we really are and how we relate to life and others
on an essential level. Our horse is not alone, it is part of the whole, just I am
Thou and Thou art I. The separation from the team, the pair pictures this loss of relation to the "other," that is the sense of being itself and at the same time its reality as part of the whole. In this state, it cannot hear and respond to the guidance of the self who knows its value . It is at the mercy of the shifting and chaotic personality or personalities who have no understanding or care for its life and purpose or in fact for the life of the whole human being.

“A man as a whole…is almost exactly comparable to that organization for conveying a passenger, which consists of a carriage, a horse, and a coachman. In the case of the real man, the passenger is the owner of the carriage…Before our nature was spoiled, all four in this team – horse, carriage, driver, master – were one; all the parts had a common understanding, all worked together, labored, rested, fed at the same time…

…But the language has been forgotten, each part has become separate, cut off from the rest. Now, at times, it is necessary for them to work together, but it is impossible – one part wants one thing, another part something else. The point is to re-establish what has been lost – this is the purpose of development…

...the power of changing oneself lies not in the mind, but in the body and the feeling.
- G I Gurdjieff

 

[meng]

Remind me........How exactly do corrected walruses stand?

Well, he tries to stand graciously; not easy for a walrus.

 

[my_key]

Well, he tries to stand graciously; not easy for a walrus.

Well, I think that walrus is doing the best job that he can !!
"If there is any wrong here it is in the driver’s ideas of what the walrus ought to be."

 

[pantherpanther]

The horse

61.4
# Six in the fourth place means:

The moon nearly at the full.
The team horse goes astray.
No blame.


To intensify the power of inner truth, a man must always turn to his
superior, from whom he can receive enlightenment as the moon receives
light from the sun. However, this requires a certain humility, like that of the
moon when it is not quite full. At the moment when the moon becomes full
and stands directly opposite the sun, it begins to wane. Just as on the one
hand we must be humble and reverent when face to face with the source of
enlightenment, so likewise must we on the other renounce factionalism
among men. Only by pursuing one's course like a horse that goes straight
ahead without looking sidewise at its mate, can one retain the inner freedom
that helps one onward.
-Wilhelm

The essential nature of each, the horse, includes the essential nature of
others. They are not at odds. They all stand in the same relation to the
higher in an organic, natural way as the moon to the sun. They share one
aim: to serve humbly the will of the higher with one voice, as with a choir
praising God,in which each has its separate voice yet act in harmony as one.

 

[fkegan]

Hex 61.4 >> 10

This is the first hexagram of the final four where their line pattern expresses their cardinal meaning, in this case INNER feeling. The fourth line, the place of the heart or soul is emphasized as it is becoming focus, changing from open Yin place to Yang line.

The inner openness is becoming strong personal feeling. The moon that is nearly full is at the height of its lunar influence, which must wane once it fully faces its luminary the sun and then declines in light. The team horse has slipped its harness and taken off upon its own path.

It is a time of allowing what is in one's heart and soul to become the focus of one's actions. This is not a matter of mere whim, therefore no blame, and in the change of this line arises hex 10 where the youngest daughter follows behind the father, expressing her reality so adorably that even though she steps upon the heels of his shoes, annoying him, when he turns around in anger he is so charmed by her expression of her nature that he must smile and put up with her limitations (trying hard to keep up with his stride, trying too hard and not avoiding stepping upon his shoes).

Frank

 

[charly]

...
The horse is the sense of self we are born with . It is covered over by
education and its growth is neglected. Personality or personalties claim
center stage. Yet it is who we really are and how we relate to life and others
on an essential level. Our horse is not alone, it is part of the whole, just I am
Thou and Thou art I. The separation from the team, the pair pictures this loss of relation to the "other," that is the sense of being itself and at the same time its reality as part of the whole....

Hi, Pantherpanther:

I usually agree that animals represent parts of ourselves, sometimes the more important. But in this case I don't see it so clear. Our horse is not alone, I understand, but what horse are we?

The horse that stays in his place or the one wandering in the night?

Maybe both, some authorities think that we have more than one self.

I understand that one horse put distance betwen him and his mate, maybe a symbol of separation from others.

But some translators say that the pair of horses disappear at H.61! Maybe there were no separation between the horses, then, the symbol...

The chinese text only says:

馬ma3 匹pi3
HORSE PAIR​

It can be understood as:

[The] horse [of a] pair
[A] pair [of] horses

Whithout considering that 匹pi3 also means to match / equal and that we can understand «horse equal», say a peer of the horse, another horse, another animal, maybe nothing to do with animals ...

Yours,

Charly

 

[pantherpanther]

The horse is essence, like a child at birth . It is both single and contains within the whole universe and is "one among many." To "Become as a little child," is to relate to the whole and the Tao. A pair of horses : the apparent separation from others. The "other" is myself . The Tao is one.

 

[maremaria]

“A man as a whole…is almost exactly comparable to that organization for conveying a passenger, which consists of a carriage, a horse, and a coachman. In the case of the real man, the passenger is the owner of the carriage…Before our nature was spoiled, all four in this team – horse, carriage, driver, master – were one; all the parts had a common understanding, all worked together, labored, rested, fed at the same time…

…But the language has been forgotten, each part has become separate, cut off from the rest. Now, at times, it is necessary for them to work together, but it is impossible – one part wants one thing, another part something else. The point is to re-establish what has been lost – this is the purpose of development…

...the power of changing oneself lies not in the mind, but in the body and the feeling.
- G I Gurdjieff

(I've never read Gurdjieff. )

Interesting analogy !

Thanks for sharing Panther

 

[pantherpanther]

maremaria,
The image of the chariot is ancient. Gurdjieff adapted it for his teaching addressed to contemporary human beings living in ordinary life.

Quote from: Swami Vivekananda in the commentary on Patanjali Yoga Sutra Chapter 2. verse one

1. Mortification, study, and surrendering fruits of work to God are called Kriya-Yoga.
Those Samadhis with which we ended our last chapter are very difficult to attain; so we must take them up slowly. The first step, the preliminary step, is called Kriya-Yoga. Literally this means work, working towards Yoga. The organs are the horses, the mind is the rein, the intellect is the charioteer, the soul is the rider, and the body is the chariot. The master of the household, the King, the Self of man, is sitting in this chariot. If the horses are very strong and do not obey the rein, if the charioteer, the intellect, does not know how to control the horses, then the chariot will come to grief. But if the organs, the horses, are well controlled, and if the rein, the mind, is well held in the hands of the charioteer, the intellect, the chariot reaches the goal. What is meant, therefore, by this mortification? Holding the rein firmly while guiding the body and the organs; not letting them do anything they like, but keeping them both under proper control.