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63. Chi Chi / After Completion

rosada

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63.
After The Lease is Signed (You Get What You Negotiate)!

THE JUDGEMENT
Finally, we've completed the negotiations and it's move in day!
Hmm... the paperwork all in order, but what about the actual house? It looked good at first but now I'm noticing a few things...

THE IMAGE
I think I better make a list of the condition of this place. I don't want to get blamed later for something I didn't do.

63.1 Oops wait a minute, is this really what we bargained for? What are we getting ourselves into?
63.2 Excuse me but the veil has been lifted and I see this place is in no shape for living in. Is the landlord going to fix it? More negotiations? Not necessary? Just be patient for a few days? Wonderful.
63.3 Okay, it's fixed but now we have to maintain it?
63.4 Seems like something's always needing moping up.
63.5 But we kinda like a place we can fix ourselves. Better than some cold motel.
63.6 Okay, we really did get what we bargained for and it worked out well but now we have to plan and negotiate for what's next...

Rosada
 
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tuckchang

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63.
After The Lease is Signed (You Get What You Negotiate)!

THE JUDGEMENT
Finally, we've completed the negotiations and it's move in day!
Hmm... the paperwork all in order, but what about the actual house? It looked good at first but now I'm noticing a few things...

THE IMAGE
I think I better make a list of the condition of this place. I don't want to get blamed later for something I didn't do.

63.1 Oops wait a minute, is this really what we bargained for? What are we getting ourselves into?
63.2 Excuse me but the veil has been lifted and I see this place is in no shape for living in. Is the landlord going to fix it? More negotiations? Not necessary? Just be patient for a few days? Wonderful.
63.3 Okay, it's fixed but now we have to maintain it?
63.4 Seems like something's always needing moping up.
63.5 But we kinda like a place we can fix ourselves. Better than some cold motel.
63.6 Okay, we really did get what we bargained for and it worked out well but now we have to plan and negotiate for what's next...

Rosada

What a beautiful paraphrase!

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

rosada

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63.6
I do intend to post the next line today but right now it's more fun just to sit here and re-read Tuck's kind words...:rolleyes:
 

tuckchang

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Hi ! Rosada,

You have truely enlightened me with a real life example. Thanks!

Regards
Tuck
 

my_key

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63.5
The neighbor in the east who slaughters an ox
Does not attain as much real happiness
As the neighbor in the west
With his small offering.
/QUOTE]
63.5 - How are we going to complete this trip? In our stretch limo or on our push bike? Feeling the wind in our hair and on our face could be kinda fun.
 

charly

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Even chineses can be unsincere and can speak with hidden intentions:

Kan ren kan xin, ting hua ting yin.
look-at / people / look-at / heart / listen-to / speech / listen-to / sound
When you look at people, you should look at their heart (i.e. true nature); when you listen to people talk, you should listen to their sound (i.e. their implied meaning).

From:
The Chinese Heart in a Cognitive Perspective. Culture, Body, and Language
by Ning Yu. Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin - New York.
page 408.

Ch.
 

rosada

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63.6
Six at the top means:
He gets his head in the water. Danger.

Here in conclusion another warning is added. After crossing a stream, a man's head can get into the water only if he is so imprudent as to turn back. As long as he goes forward and does not look back, he escapes this danger. But there is a fascination in standing still and looking back on peril overcome. However, such vain self-admiration brings misfortune. It leads only to danger, and unless one finally resolves to go forward without pausing, one falls a victim to this danger.
-Wilhelm
 

tuckchang

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63.6

Line 6: Wetting the head; stern & cruel.

The fox ignored the warning of wetting the tail at position 1 and didn’t take the advice of ‘not to be proud after having succeeded but be aware of peril in the front’; it arrives at the end of Hex 63, water deluged its head but it is still in the river.

The hexagram reaches the end, all the six lines remain unchanging; all are frozen.

Confucian commentary on the image: Wetting the head, stern & cruel; how can it last long?

How shall the fox act now, to go back to position 1, the riverbank, or continue to the next hexagram Wei Ji, wherein the river starts from position 1 up to position 5 and the riverbank is far at position 6? If the fox can divine, it will definitely do (or do another one but with a different approach of its question).

On the other hand, if line 6 can make a change, the hexagram will become Jia Ren: the household (37), i.e. a harbor and the safest place. Additionally the line text of Jia Ren elaborates how a household should be managed in order to reach the one with public reliance and prestige, i.e. starting from zero (or the ground), like the fox having almost lost everything at the end, to prosperity (or success).

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

Trojina

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can't see where 'stern and cruel' come into it :confused:
 

rosada

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63.6

a) He gets his head in the water. Danger.

b) "He gets his head in the water." How can one endure this for long?

While the nine at the beginning is the tail of the fox, the six at the top is the head. It gets into water because it is a weak line at the top of K'an, water, danger. While crossing the water it turns back and so incurs the danger of drowning. These are the disorders prophesied by the hexagram at the final outcome.
-Wilhelm
 

tuckchang

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63.6

Or it can be understood: Water is so deep, i.e. high up to its head.
厲 (li4) is strict and stern, or harsh and oppressive in terms of adjectives, i.e. a stern & cruel status in facing danger, difficulties, challenges etc.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

rosada

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musings...
Interesting how at the beginning of the I Ching, hexagram 1.6, the arrogant dragon flies so high he loses touch with the rest of his body, and here at the close of 63.6 we are also warned about losing one's head and we will be similarly warned at 64.6. It seems there is a continuing warning against getting too far ahead of the crowd.

memorizing tip, noting how line one, 63.1, refers to the tail and 63.6 refers to the head.

I always get 63 and 64 confused and now I realize it's because both talk about the little fox getting his tail wet.

63 seems to me to describe the ending of an adventure while 64 seems to be a review of the whole experience. Like after it's been completed there is the moment - 63.6 - when one should look back and celebrate, gather round the campfire with friends and tell The Story of The Fox Who Almost Drowned. There is the caution that one should not spend too much time admiring the past, yet the warning only says "danger," not "don't do it."

So despite the danger, here we go on to the final hexagram 64. The Fox's Story. Is this to be a period of reviewing all we've been through and perhaps a chance to "re-tail" it, give our life story the spin we would like complete with 64.6, "Happy Ending"? Well as My key (post #125) suggests we can create it however we choose...

rosada
 

fkegan

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musings...

I always get 63 and 64 confused and now I realize it's because both talk about the little fox getting his tail wet.

63 seems to me to describe the ending of an adventure while 64 seems to be a review of the whole experience. Like after it's been completed there is the moment - 63.6 - when one should look back and celebrate, gather round the campfire with friends and tell The Story of The Fox Who Almost Drowned. There is the caution that one should not spend too much time admiring the past, yet the warning only says "danger," not "don't do it."
rosada


Hi Rosada,

One of the problems of remembering only the words of the commentary is that the totally different perspectives of hex 63 and hex 64 gets lost in the detail they both refer to a traditional story of a fox crossing a frozen river.

Hex 63 is about only noticing one's own intentions and therefore in each line being unpleasantly surprised by what comes next. In line one it is just a rough and wet landing. By line 6 it is falling into deep water that goes over the head, thus drowning.

Hex 64 is about noticing what comes next and not so much your own actions. Line one the young fox has problems watching his step and falls into the river. By line 6 there is the celebration of what is dawning as the Next development. If this fox continues to ignore its own actions and goes to excess he loses his head, generally fatal, though it also solves the fox problem once and for all bringing calm.

However, if the fox is finally wise then hex 64.6 >> 40 and the Next will be a resolution of danger and an opportunity to return to peaceful life.

For both these final hexagrams there is a process of development going on with the important part being what will come Next and how the metaphor of the fox will learn to become wise or suffer the consequences of Not.

Frank
 
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charly

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... The text: The eastern neighbor slaughters an ox, (but it is) not better than the western neighbor having a simple sacrificial ceremony, by which one will be really blessed with good fortune (or solidity or reality is the one that will benefit good fortune.
... 實 (shi2) 受其福; 實 (shi2) signifies solid, real, honest, true etc ... in the I Ching, solidity is regarded as Yang (i.e. masculinity)... 實受 (shou4: to be blessed) 其福 (fu2: good fortune) can be understood: the masculine, or the one who is pragmatic, or the one who acts according to the true demand …will be really blessed with good fortune.
... Ji Ji: having already crossed the river, while the masculine (i.e. solid) line of the trigram Qian is lifted to the position 5, the king’s position, and reaches the climax of the hexagram Ji Ji, but ... The one at the climax is doomed to decline, like auspiciousness at the beginning but disorder at the end ...

Usually the cattle are the sacrifice used for a splendid ceremony and the pig for a simple one; however, whether or not the ceremony is devout doesn’t depend on the sacrifice but on the sincerity & trust (i.e. belief in) of the worshiper, and to worship with sincerity & trust is that which will bring about good fortune...
The trigram Kan also signifies sincerity & trust (aka 有孚 you3 fu2) since it is constituted by a masculine line in the middle of two feminine lines, like a solid heart...
Hi Tuck:

I don't find where does the text say which sacrifice is the best:

Wilhelm / Baynes in uppercase:

dong1: east / [OF THE] EAST
lin2: neighbor / adjacent / close to / [THE] NEIGHBOR
sha1 : to kill / to murder / to slaughter / [WHO] SLAUGHTERS
niu2: ox / cow / bull / [AN] OX

bu4: not / no / DOES NOT
ru2: as (if) / like / such as / AS
西 xi1: west / western / [IN THE] WEST
lin2: neighbor / adjacent / close to / [THE] NEIGHBOR
zhi1: ... 's / him / her / it / [WITH] HIS
yue4: spring sacrifice / SMALL (!?)
ji4 / offer sacrifice / offering / OFFERING

shi2: real / true / honest / really / solid / REAL
shou4: to bear / to stand / to receive / ATTAIN
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it / [AS MUCH]
fu2: good fortune / blessing / happiness / holy / HAPPINESS

While the syntax in the chinese text is regular, it was twisted in the W/B translation.

A rough translation, I believe, could be:


EASTERN NEIGBOR'S SLAUGHTERING OXEN
Zhou country sacrifice during which a bull was killed.
... but why EASTERN neighbor?

[IS] NOT LIKE WESTERN NEIGHBOR'S «YUE» OFFERING.
... what was the «YUE» sacrifice?
... which westerners?

SOLIDITY BEARS ITS [OWN] REWARD
Say, virtue bears on itself its own blessing.
To be SOLID is a BLESSING itself.
... don't expect another reward.

Of course, more indetermination, only points that the two offerings differ, it doesn't say what is the better.

Of course, I don't like oxen slaughterings, but I remember (maybe mistakenly) that Rutt said that in the YUE sacrifice, PERSONS migh be killed.

I believe that the speaker is in the center, given that has two neighbors, one at the east and other at the west. But where was the speaker located and wich were his neigbors?

In my country it's said "the straw is not like the wheat" meaning that the weat is better, maybe you have reason and the YUE SACRIFICE is better.

Harmen said:
I believe yue 禴 is a key character ... Yue is the name of a sacrifice which was used mostly in summer, but also in spring. The Zhouli 周禮 says: ... "Use the ci 祠 sacrifice to serve the ancestors in spring. Use the yue 禴 sacrifice to serve the ancestors in the summer. Use the chang 嘗 sacrifice to serve the ancestors in autumn. Use the zheng 烝 sacrifice to serve the ancestors in the winter"...

The nature of the yue sacrifice is found in the component 龠. The oracle bone graph is the picture of a music instrument made from bamboo ... The 甲骨文字典 says yue is the name of a sacrifice in which music was used, in later ages it was more and more written as 禴 (p. 199). Music was associated with joy and spring.
But 龠 was not only a music instrument, it was also a unit for measure ... It is interesting to notice that the things which are used during sacrifices, like a ladle and a flute, are also used as containers for measurement, and that these containers are related to each other. It seems as if in the sheng sacrifice the 'measures', fixing the units, is important.

Harmen Mesker at: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/categories/3-Character-analysis

Spring, summer, music, joy... I like it.

Yours,

Charly
 
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tuckchang

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Hi ! Charly,

It is always amazing to me that you and harmen have done all these studies.

Indeed there is no any back-up material to prove which sacrifice is the best. My paraphrase mainly comes from the text: slaughtering an ox in relation to a simple sacrificial ceremony, and I would like to add the following for your reference:

周禮 (ZhouLi, literally translated as the propriety of the Zhou dynasty) actually is a documentation specifying Zhou’s official rankings and their corresponding duties. It is alleged that ZhouLi was enacted by Zhou Gong Dan (approx. 1100 B.C. / the son of Zhou Wen Wang / after Zhou was established, Zhou Gong Dan consulted with Shang’s holdovers to build Zhou’s system); however according to the textual research, most likely it was accomplished later in the years of the Warring States (403-221 B.C.).

儀禮 (YiLi, literally translated as the ceremony and propriety) is the one which mainly describes all regulations of Zhou’s noble society. It is alleged that YiLi was regulated by Zhou Gong Dan and compiled by Confucius (551 – 479 B.C.), but according to the textual research, most likely it was also accomplished in the years of the Warring States.
According to YiLi, the ox is positioned in the middle; the goat and the pig are positioned in parallel behind the ox.
Even nowadays, except for the national and conventional ceremony like commemorating Confucius’s birthday, only the pig (most of times) and the goat (sometimes) are used as the sacrifice in all civilian ceremony.
The cattle needed for farming might be one of the reasons

Also for your information, 禴 (yue4) is the ceremony of spring in the dynasties of Xia and Shang, but the ceremony of summer in the Zhou dynasty; it is regarded as a simple sacrificial ceremony, since the seed is just sown in spring time and it is still far from harvest time; worship is held with simple sacrifices but sincerity & trust. 龠 (yue4) is a three holed flute. However whether 禴 is 龠, personally I could not find any evidence to prove their links.

Some writings say: Shang was located in the east and Zhou was located in the west.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

charly

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...
Indeed there is no any back-up material to prove which sacrifice is the best. My paraphrase mainly comes from the text: slaughtering an ox in relation to a simple sacrificial ceremony ...
... It is alleged that ZhouLi was enacted by Zhou Gong Dan (approx. 1100 B.C. / the son of Zhou Wen Wang / after Zhou was established, Zhou Gong Dan consulted with Shang’s holdovers to build Zhou’s system); however according to the textual research, most likely it was accomplished later in the years of the Warring States (403-221 B.C.)...
Even nowadays, except for the national and conventional ceremony like commemorating Confucius’s birthday, only the pig (most of times) and the goat (sometimes) are used as the sacrifice in all civilian ceremony.

... 禴 (yue4) is the ceremony of spring in the dynasties of Xia and Shang, but the ceremony of summer in the Zhou dynasty; it is regarded as a simple sacrificial ceremony, since the seed is just sown in spring time and it is still far from harvest time ...
Hi, Tuck:

Thanks, very much, for all the information. I believe,but I don't remember in what source based, that some Shang scribes were among the editors of the Zhou YI and maybe they passed hidden messages favorable to the ancient regime. Shangs were not anihilated, if the Shang culture was more evolved that Zhous culture it isn't strange that some issues remained.

Don't you trust that there is a parallellism between this line and the biblical story of Abel and Cain? Of course, God had nothing personal against Cain, even more, he protected Cain from being murdered by accident and put in him his mark.

Cain offered crops whyle Abel offered meat. Being carnivore God of course preferred barbecue. Maybe Abel was not so sincere as Cain, but Cain was passionate to the extreme. I believe to perceive some connections between the YI and the Bible.

Some of these connections are related with LITTLE FOXES, but that is another story.

Yours,

Charly
 

tuckchang

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Imho

Hi ! Charly,

To my understanding, originally the text of the I Ching was called Yi. Zhou Yi was named by the later generation for distinguishing it from the other two, i.e. Lian Shan Yi 連山易 and Gui Cang Yi 歸藏易 (It is alleged that both had been out of print, but I doubt since no one has ever seen any piece of them). It is also alleged that Zhou Wen Wang provided each hexagram with a text and his son, Zhou Gong Dan, gave every line a text. In actuality or to say it more precisely, all the texts should be collective works; Zhou Wen Wang and Zhou Gong Dan are the representative features of this creation in that era, i.e. the end of Shang and the beginning of Zhou.
In the years of spring and autumn, and the warring states (i.e. the later phase of the Zhou dynasty), killing one another for power and benefit occurred amid brothers, the monarchs, the monarch and his subjects, as well as the king and his monarchs. Confucian integrated their thoughts with Zhou Yi into the I Ching.

I have only a little knowledge about the Bible but from the perspective in studying the I Ching I believe, basically there is no big difference in human nature between the western and the eastern world; the Bible and the I Ching are similar in respect of unveiling good and evil, and providing people with conduct codes, although due to being affected by the culture or religion, Chinese (or the I Ching) more focus on the present life, i.e. to pursue good fortune and avoid misfortune, as well as self-interest, while Christianity is altruistic and for the future holy land, I might say. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

charly

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.. Zhou Yi was named by the later generation for distinguishing it from the other two, i.e. Lian Shan Yi 連山易 and Gui Cang Yi 歸藏易 (It is alleged that both had been out of print, but I doubt since no one has ever seen any piece of them)...
... from the perspective in studying the I Ching I believe, basically there is no big difference in human nature between the western and the eastern world; the Bible and the I Ching are similar in respect of unveiling good and evil, and providing people with conduct codes...
..., Chinese (or the I Ching) more focus on the present life, i.e. to pursue good fortune and avoid misfortune, as well as self-interest..
Hi, Tuck:

Maybe I don't understand you well, but about the Shangs GUI CANG there are remnants that allow us to see a sort of filiation between both. Don't you trust in archeological findings such as the pre-Qin WangJiaTai copy? Of course nobody can see the original as passed with 99% of originals.

Yours,

Charly
 

tuckchang

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Hi ! Charly,

I haven’t heard about the Cui Cang of WangJiaTai before. Thank you very much for this information. I will make a study.

Regards
Tuck
 

charly

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Hi ! Charly,

I haven’t heard about the Cui Cang of WangJiaTai before. Thank you very much for this information. I will make a study.

Regards
Tuck
Hi, Tuck:

Maybe you have yet got this stuff:
As a matter of fact, the unearthing of the Guicang copied on the bamboo slips of Wangjiatai, Jiangling County, Hubei Province 湖北江陵王家台 can provide us with more convincing evidence on Zhou people's simultaneous using of the three kinds of Yi .

In this bamboo slips manuscript, there is a part of broken slips concerning to the divinations of the Yi , different from the received Zhouyi . Through comparative studies, scholars found most of the bamboo slips manuscript could be seen in the first three parts of the Guicang 归藏 compiled by Yan Kejun 严可均 (1762-1843). This can testify that this manuscript most probably was the Guicang , still being used in the Zhou dynasty.

From: Three Kinds of Yi and the Transmission of the Zhouyi in the Pre-Qin Period
This paper was originally published in Chinese in Zhouyi Yanjiu 《周易研究》 (Studies of Zhouyi) , no. 5 (2006): pp. 47-54.

At: http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english0/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2008411190938.asp
Liao Qun


The text of the “Da zhuang” hexagram, number 53 in the Wangjiatai Guicang, is reproduced as follows:
26 ... 661111 “Da zhuang” says: In antiquity, Feng Long divined about the coming clouds and rain, then had the stalks counted by Qun Jing. Qun Jing divined it, saying: “Auspicious.” Clouds of the great mountains descend. ...

Although the hexagram name and hexagram symbol are identical with its counterpart in the Zhouyi, the guaci, or hexagram statement, that follows bears no resemblance at all. In fact, it is much more reminiscent of the text of a bone-cracking ceremony...

From:
Stephen l. Field
Who Told the Fortunes?
The Speaker in Early Chinese Divination Records

At: http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2000b/ch 1 PRESS.pdf

The Structure and Schools of the Guicang
Xing Wen, Peking University

The Guicang, which might be translated as "The Book of Concealment," was attributed as a divinatory classic of the Shang Dynasty in early China, and thus supposedly pre-dated the better known Zhouyi or Yijing (The Book of Changes). However, the scattered citations of the Guicang in received tradition which were edited as "reconstituted redactions" (jiben), have been considered forgeries for centuries. This misunderstanding ended with the discovery of bamboo slip versions of the Guicang from a Qin tomb in 1993.

http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2002abst/China/sessions.htm

Of course, Harmen Mesker or LiSe have also references:

http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/categories/5-Reviews

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/unearthed/guicang/guicang.htm

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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Session 57: Bone, Bronze, and Bamboo: Divination and the New/Old Guicang Manual
Organizer and Chair: Constance A. Cook, Lehigh University
Discussant: Sarah Allan, Dartmouth College

The discovery in 1993 of a new divination manual in a Qin period tomb near the old capital of Chu in Jiangling, Hubei, has stimulated new research in ancient Chinese divination—a field once dominated by studies of Shang period oracle bones and the Yijing (accepted by many to be of an early Zhou date). This new manual (consisting of 394 bamboo strips and fragments representing two copies), is now identified as the Guicang mentioned in later texts. Like the earliest layer of the Yijing, it consists of hexagrams, the names of the 53 different hexagrams, and an omen text. Unlike the transmitted version of the Yijing, the hexagrams are represented by an ancient numbering system found also on earlier bone, bronze, and bamboo texts. Even more startling, the mythological and historical events used as omens in the text are completely different from those in the Yijing. Questions of dating, textual transmission, method, use, and interpretation will be examined in this panel.

The Structure and Schools of the Guicang
Xing Wen, Peking University

The Guicang, which might be translated as "The Book of Concealment," was attributed as a divinatory classic of the Shang Dynasty in early China, and thus supposedly pre-dated the better known Zhouyi or Yijing (The Book of Changes). However, the scattered citations of the Guicang in received tradition which were edited as "reconstituted redactions" (jiben), have been considered forgeries for centuries. This misunderstanding ended with the discovery of bamboo slip versions of the Guicang from a Qin tomb in 1993.

In this paper, I will re-examine and clarify some basic textual issues of the Guicang using both the excavated materials and received texts. I will argue that the reconstituted redactions misrepresented the true textual structure of the classic. I will analyze connections between different schools of the Guicang and the extant Guicang chapter divisions and hexagram names. Besides exploring textual characteristics of early Chinese divinatory classics, I will discuss the reconstruction of a critical edition of the Guicang and how best to read the text.

Some Observations on Early Milfoil Divination
Stephen Lee Field, Trinity University

My analysis will begin with a look at a bone inscription dating from the late Shang or early Zhou, unearthed at the Zhou homeland of Qishan. It contains a six-digit numerical string, followed by a sentence of six Chinese characters. Apparently the record of a milfoil divination, the sentence is most likely either the diviner’s counsel based on the number cast by milfoil, or an omen text cited by the diviner which corresponds to that particular number. In order to further anchor this text in the early development of milfoil divination, I will compare it to fragments of the Guicang found in the Qin tomb at Wangjiatai. Then I will look closely at a bone-cracking ritual recorded in the Zuozhuan. Finally, I will compare all of the above records with the standard text format of the Zhouyi.

From Bone to Bamboo: Sacrificial Vessels and the Divination Event
Constance A. Cook, Lehigh University

This paper will examine the role of Zhou religion in transferring the divination record from bone to bamboo. Numerical hexagrams link the recording of divination events on Shang and Zhou oracle bones, Western Zhou bronze vessels, and Warring States period bamboo texts—yet the texts themselves reflect the concerns of radically changed societies. Although attention will be focused on the relationship of the divination event to the manufacture and use of Zhou sacrificial vessels—particularly those with inscriptions—inferences about the nature of the event itself will be drawn from the earlier and later divination texts. Finally, the paper will comment on the formation of the Guicang manual.

Dicing and Divination in Early China
Mark Edward Lewis, Cambridge University

One striking feature of the Wangjiatai tomb in which the Guicang was discovered was the placing inside the coffin of implements including a diviner’s board, sixty bamboo counters, and twenty-three dice. While there is no proof that these dice were used in association with the text, the fact that they were six-sided and privileged the numbers "one" and "six" suggests a link with the numerical hexagrams found in the Guicang and other recently discovered hexagram texts. This linking of dice with the hexagrams suggests several interesting arguments regarding divination in early China.

First, the possibility that dice were used to generate hexagrams, along with the construction of hexagrams as sets of numbers, indicates the importance of numbers in the interpretation of hexagrams and links them to other types of divination based on the manipulation of numerical series or sets.

Second, the link of dice to hexagrams hints at an association with the game liubo, which also used dice and sometimes was a means of divination. Links between liubo and hexagrams are suggested in Han depictions of the game, and the "Bo Divination Chart" discovered at Yinwan strengthens this link.

Finally, dice have been employed for divination in many cultures, including Tibet and ancient Greece. The Greek case is particularly suggestive, as indicated in the myths of Palamedes who was variously the inventor of dice, divination, and writing. The discoveries at Wangjiatai suggest that these domains also overlapped in ancient China.


From: http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2002abst/China/sessions.htm

Ch.
 
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fkegan

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Hi Charly,

I am amazed and fascinated by this post of dice in the tomb with divination hexagrams. I still consider tomb research grave robbing, but this is a trove of golden treasure that is certainly worthy no matter how it was obtained!:bows:

I will be studying this is detail though I am also called before the justice thread for thinking highly of my own research and thus annoying old hands here.

My work relating the dice and the Yi was theoretical assuming it was only the 100th monkey global awareness of the time of Pythagoras and Confucius that would link them, but here you come with the text about a single tomb(may that ancestor rest in peace despite his bones not) containing both divination hexagrams and dice! Wowie Zowie.

Do they have any information from the divination text how to cast the hexagram oracle with Dice?

Great Work. Thank you so much for sharing this here!!!

Frank
 

charly

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... I still consider tomb research grave robbing, but this is a trove of golden treasure that is certainly worthy no matter how it was obtained!:bows:
... the text about a single tomb(may that ancestor rest in peace despite his bones not) containing both divination hexagrams and dice! Wowie Zowie.

Do they have any information from the divination text how to cast the hexagram oracle with Dice?
...
Hi, Frank:

I always believed in a connection between dice an divination in the changes, I have speculated about the possibility of getting a primary hexagram by casting an 8-sided dice (a Big Dice) an getting a changing line with a 6-sided dice (lLittle Dice) and that this connected with the Big Image (big ivory, big elephant, why not Big Dice?) for each hex. and Little Image (Little dice) for each line.

Here there is a dice from a Mawangdui tomb in reference with liubo game:

unipl94-r.jpg

From: http://history.chess.free.fr/liubo.htm

Yours,

Charly

p.d.:

http://www.sino-platonic.org/abstracts/spp121_divination.html

http://stanford.edu/dept/history/people/lewis_me.html

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/asianlang/faculty/lewis.html

Ch.
 
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fkegan

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Hi, Frank:

I always believed in a connection between dice an divination in the changes, I have speculated about the possibility of getting a primary hexagram by casting an 8-sided dice (a Big Dice) an getting a changing line with a 6-sided dice (lLittle Dice) and that this connected with the Big Image (big ivory, big elephant, why not Big Dice?) for each hex. and Little Image (Little dice) for each line.

Yours,

Charly

Hi Charly,

I will read through your links in due time. I still have a trial to deal with ( I feel like Galileo) and my ill wife and the Sushi I bought her for Oscar night (a family tradition of hers, she grew up in LA) that turned out to be 3 days past its sell by date and today the manager told me they do nothing with checking those dates, it is an outside vendor just in their store.

Do you have any idea what date in our calendar this "Early China" might be? I saw nothing in the link to the 2002 AAS meeting giving is this 1200 BCE or 3000 BCE.

As to your comment of big dice and little dice. Of course you would need to roll 8-sided dice twice for a hexagram and then the little dice once for a single moving line.
I worked with Jim Gross (creator of the 3 12-sided dice Oracle Astrodice) who developed 8-sided dice for his Chinese Fortune Dice project. They looked terrible and the whole thing was unwieldy and our 'creative differences' over the important part being the 8-sided dice or the I Ching hexagrams led to difficulties and to my development of the Stars And Dice book using common dice for the astrological Oracle.

That dice and hexagrams would be linked together in the earliest development from mathematics to divination and the I Ching is of course my belief as well. I prefer to trace it through legend rather than grave robbing, but that is done so we can only honor those desecrated ancestors by making the best use of their stolen property that we can.
The date of the robbed tomb would be nice to know. Is there a name to the ancestor too so we can make some proper sign of respect to his family spirits?

Again, thank you so much for your post.

Frank
 

charly

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...
Do you have any idea what date in our calendar this "Early China" might be? I saw nothing in the link to the 2002 AAS meeting giving is this 1200 BCE or 3000 BCE.
...
I worked with Jim Gross (creator of the 3 12-sided dice Oracle Astrodice) who developed 8-sided dice for his Chinese Fortune Dice project. They looked terrible ...
Frank:

I have put another links for the same author, he have published many books on chinese history, one corresponding to the AAS abstract. There is also a pdf in Victor Mair's page, althoug I believe not free.

An 8-sided dice I never tryed to build it. It can look horrible. But an 18-sided like the dice of the picture alsos can be usable. And 18 is multiple of 2, 3, 6 and 9. It reminds me something...

Did Culin wrote something about it?

http://www.gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/index.html

Yours,

Charly
 

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