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64. Wei Chi / Before Completion

my_key

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Hi Mike,

Nice to see Jethro Tull again. I can see how he revolutionized British agriculture back in the day.

Hex 64 mentions the image of a fox that is the image used for the Trickster so...?

This fox motif appears in hex 64 but the first line here like hex 63.1 could equally well be your tail in the water rather than that of the Trickster or fox (the Yellowbridge Chinese has "tail" and only suggests (fox).

The larger point is that this is a hexagram about working to get something completed and this first line messes up way too soon. It can not keep its ultimate goal in mind and loses big. When this line changes, the time of working upon completing your own project becomes (hex 38) a humiliating return home to bicker with your siblings about how funny you looked getting your tail wet when you failed.

Sad line...

Frank

Hi Frank
The fox is mentioned in the image of the hex so the jump to affixing this tail to that fox has got to be, to my mind, easier than pinning one on the donkey.:D
It's not so clear to me that this is a sad line.
Here we have just stepped into a situation where the outcome cannot be readily discerned.
63.6 - Completed the transition. Danger if you rest on your laurels.
38.1 - When opposition is all around don't go trying to force the issue.

So perhaps we are on the threshold here of the big picture. Sure we don't know what it is, or where we are actually going now but the answer is to just keep going. The "getting the tail wet" and suffering the associated humiliation seems to be only a possibility if we go forward too quickly (thinking we know it all - 38.1) or if we stand still (63.6) and break through the ice.

So here at line 1 the origins of the situation, where we have stepped from, if we chase something or stand still then there will be a touch of resultant humiliation. Conversely,if we heed the warning of this line - the warning of what we have learnt from our transition and the things that oppose us now then we have an opportunity to be well.
It may well only be sad if we fail to be suitably discerning in the way in which we step forward.

Drawing this line can be a call for greater awareness . Remember there are no beginnings and no ends - we are just riding the gravy train. There is no such thing as "messing up" it's just another step forward on the loop.

Perhaps there are others who can add to the picture of this line. It seems to me to be a very important line to comprehend.

Mike
 
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my_key

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I especially like this idea of stepping into the big picture, for 64 in general, but also laughably for the first step. After all, the fox didn't drown, only got a dose of humiliation. Which, as you say, Mike, can be the most valuable lesson in survival and evolution to begin with.

Hi Meng
Yes this 64.1 is a bit of a topsy turvy line for me, it seems on first reading to perhaps be a negative but the more I look at it it's a positive.
Perhaps It's only humiliating if we don't laugh at ourselves first.

I like Cleary's take ".....entering in gradually one cannot seek completion all at once. But if one is then foolish and vain and seeks to emulate the way of those of lofty enlightenment and effect settlement, one will be trailed by danger before even moving"

Mike
 

my_key

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A few years I saw Jethro Tull again, great show. But with this line it is the tail that is doing the trick.
That's why I was thinking of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PURWvusyWIQ&feature=related

The tail is the connection with our sacrum, Our Holy bone, the bone that's is the connection with our reproduction, the 6 and 9 where Janice was talking about.

Frank
Hi Frank
I saw Ian Anderson do an acoustic set just before Christmas. The voice isn't what it was, but what a showman.
Looking at the lyrics of both songs There seems to be a real case for each showing an aspect of 64.1.

I take it from the " Holy Bone "connection that we are right up in the spiritual realms with this line/ hexagram as well. Interesting point to pursue. What can you add to the comments you have made already?

Mike
 

charly

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Text: Wetting the tail, resentful.
...
To be put into the river right at the beginning is not the little fox’s fault; however it will be leaded to calamity if it continues to cross the river. 吝 (lin4): resentment (or humiliating), a very common annotation in Chinese I Ching writings, signifies ‘not to regret when one should regret 悔 (hui3)’ and will move toward misfortune. 悔 (hui3): regret signifies ‘the capability of being aware what has been done wrong and making corrections timely’.
...
Hi, Tuck:

I like your description of REGRET. But I believe that your equation of 吝 (lin4) = resentment = humiliating = not to regret when one should regret 悔 (hui3), although interesting is little true.

Looking for 吝 lin4 at Schuessler, he reports as Zhou times meanings 1) REGRET, 2) STINGY. The second is nowadays the standard meaning.

Maybe was Schuessler influenced by Legge ? He, in the Changes, translated 吝 lin4 as REGRET, I believe, wrongly.

Some people seems to believe that TO REGRET is something STINGY, lacking of generosity (1). Is maybe this the sense of 悔 hui3 吝 lin4 ?. I'm almost sure that there is not sustent for Wilhelm / Baynes HUMILIATION. (2)

I translate 64.1 so:

ru2: to wet / to get wet /
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / one's
wei3: tail / back / bottom / arse (?) /

lin4: stingy / sparing / miserable / damn (?) /

WETTING ONE'S TAIL. STINGY.
Getting one's tail wet. Sh_t!

Here I believe to wet the tail means something PRAECOX, to behave in a HURRY, to do things TOO SOON. And that is bad not only for ourselves but even for our DEAR ONES.

Those who do not take care of themselves shall end damaging their friends and those who always are taking care of their friends shall end damaging themselves.

Quoted by Lin Yutang in With Love and Irony.

Say, BAD, but NO CALAMITY. Not all the young foxes perish for it. Some foxes get mature age because that sort of experiences. (3)

Am I wrong?

Yours,

Charly




____________________________
(1) I remember «JE NE REGRETE RIEN»

(2) Was Wilhelm willing to make think in something like SEXUAL FAILURE? And the horrible consecuemces for self confidence for men ascribed to male superiority phylosophy? Maybe this was the sense that made Legge to feel unconfortable with the standard meaning. Is 64.1 an advice from love-making techniques masters?

(3) El zorro pierde el pelo pero no las mañas.
 
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fkegan

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Here we have just stepped into a situation where the outcome cannot be readily discerned.
63.6 - Completed the transition. Danger if you rest on your laurels.
38.1 - When opposition is all around don't go trying to force the issue....

Yes this 64.1 is a bit of a topsy turvy line for me, it seems on first reading to perhaps be a negative but the more I look at it it's a positive.
Perhaps It's only humiliating if we don't laugh at ourselves first.

Drawing this line can be a call for greater awareness . Remember there are no beginnings and no ends - we are just riding the gravy train. There is no such thing as "messing up" it's just another step forward on the loop.

Hi Mike,

Here you raise some deep questions. The Yi is clearly about Flux or the never-ending story of changes; however does that mean that hex 63.6 is followed by hex 64.1?

I would take 64.1 as sad since hex 64 is all about working hard to complete your great project, such as "crossing the great river" that appears so often in the text. Each of the lines in hex 64 is about leaving that project and doing other things. Hex 64.1 fails in the project of crossing the great river. The little fox may not drown like hex 63.6 (who thus is not around to try again in hex 64.1) but it doesn't get any more opportunity to cross. Cf. Wilhelm commentary upon the judgment for hex 64 and hex 64.1. This little fox has failed period. In hex 64.1 the suggestion is that the timing is bad, such as the river hasn't yet fully frozen over and it can not be crossed by any fox.

As to the slogan "humiliating" in the text for hex 64.1; its exact meaning I leave to Tuck and Charly and Brad to figure out. However, remember Wilhelm is based upon the Confucian commentary and the essence of Confucius' work with the Yi was to cast it (pun intended) in terms of divination advice for Imperial Civil Servants.' Humiliating' for any bureaucrat in any government in any millennium has one meaning--you have failed to cover your tail. The total screw up is all being blamed upon you since no one else wants to join you taking the blame. Maybe it wasn't your fault, just poor timing but it will be known as your screw up. You had a big project to do and you aren't finishing it since you got tagged and now are IT (tail pinned on you as donkey?).

Frank
 

tuckchang

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Hi, Tuck:

I like your description of REGRET. But I believe that your equation of 吝 (lin4) = resentment = humiliating = not to regret when one should regret 悔 (hui3), although interesting is little true.

Hi ! Charly,

First, I have to apologize for my English which doesn’t allow me to correctly and precisely express myself, especially to describe something abstract, sometimes due to lacking the pertinent word in my vocabularies or no equivalent word because of different cultures; sometimes even I am confused by equivocal Chinese.

Resentment is definitely not a appropriate word for 吝 (lin3); it can only express the result. Resentment is definitely not equal to humiliating either. It is highly appreciated if someone can advise me the correct word after having understood the following explanation.

Usually a single Chinese character possesses lots of different meanings; its true significance is manifested after it is integrated with other characters, i.e. becoming a phrase.
吝 (lin3) can be understood as: stingy or hate (恨 hen4) in terms of noun, for instant, 吝嗇 (se4): stingy or 悔 (hui3: regret) 吝 (hate which covers self-blame and discontent). According to 說文解字 (shui wen jie zi), 吝 signifies 恨惜 (hen4 xi2); its literal meaning is ‘hate and feeling sorry for’, or according to my comprehension, to feel deeply sorry with self-blame and discontent.

Some I Ching writings in Chinese regard 吝 as a kind of anger and hate (due to unfavorable situations caused by one’s wrongdoings and narrow heart) which will lead a person to make more mistakes. He will be frustrated or hurt; he might remorse, or he might not confess his fault but feel unfair, which will make the whole situation worse.
‘Not to regret when one should regret, which will move toward misfortune’ stems from this statement, which paraphrases its cause and effect, and distinguishes the judgments among regret (悔), resentment (吝), fortune (吉), misfortune (凶)…..as specified per the attached.

There are many, many different interpretations and argumentations in Chinese about the I Ching, as usually its original text is composed of several disconnected sentences, and each sentence is constituted by independent characters, like most of ancient Chinese writings, very concise but with many different interpretations and paraphrases.
朱熹 (Zhu Xi 1130 ~ 1200 A.C., a very prominent scholar of the Song dynasty in respect of Confucianism) annotated 吝 as 羞 (xiu: to feel shamed) 吝. His interpretations on major Confucian writings were always taken as the standard version for the imperial examination from the Yuan dynasty (1206 ~ 1367 A.C.); it went without saying, Zhu Xi’s interpretation on the I Ching also became the legitimate one. Most likely Wilhem’s interpretation: humiliating, is derived from this annotation; however in my opinion, 羞吝 are somewhat inappropriate (i.e. they don’t comply with the context of most of 吝 cases in the I Ching. Zhu Xi was great but it doesn’t mean that he was always right.) and humiliating is seemingly incomplete.

All what I have done or intend to do is just to share with you an example of how a Chinese paraphrase the I Ching from his study in following the conventional way.

In actuality and to my knowledge, inscriptions on bones or tortoise shells, the first original Chinese character, are a kind of pictographs as well as compound indicatives (i.e. to understand the meaning from its constituted symbols). Therefore, there exists an argumentation that some inscriptions or characters are originally multi-syllable (it became single syllable character after many year transformations). Therefore, the original meaning of 吝 might be 羞吝 (humiliating), 悔吝 (remorse incl. hate), 吝 itself, or Sh_t. Who knows?
Anyway, the I Ching is a life philosophy and stories of life; people can surely paraphrase it according to their own thoughts or experiences.


Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

tuckchang

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64.2

Text: Dragging back the wheel; it is auspicious to persist.
Line 2 doesn't act according to what is right and arrive at the middle of the river, the bottom trigram Kan. The masculine tends to move; fortunately line 2 at the middle position possesses the principle of moderation and can act moderately. It is in the middle of the river, and finds out that there is another undercurrent, the inner upper trigram Kan (from line 3 to 5), in front. The carriage can’t assure the success in crossing the river; thus it drags back the wheel to stop moving forth.

Confucian commentary on its image: The auspiciousness of line 2’s persistence is due to its acting righteously by virtue of the principle of moderation.
Although line 2 is the masculine at the position for femininity and unable to act according to what is righteous, the principle of moderation can lead it to fulfill the requirements of righteousness.
The principle of moderation is neither radical nor conservative. Line 2 is in correlation with line 5; once the lighthouse of line 5 lights up, it can move forth in the right direction. The hexagram that forms after this line is triggered and changes, is Jin: to advance with brightness (35).

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

rodaki

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Charly!

I just read XiaoFei's article, what a great piece! it put my questions on foxes in the right perspective, thank you so much! :):bows:

@ Tuck: thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding here, so much great food for thought! :bows:

I hope Rosada and everyone won't mind if I keep on with 64.1 just for a while . . like Mike I find this a peculiar, intriguing line . . even more so if i try to read it as 'the sign on the door' of hexagram 64 . . what if 64.1 gives us one important advice for the whole of 64? . . maybe this is saying that in crossing the unknown we need to be aware that failure is always close at hand, as close as is the solution to it . . friends and helpers can be found in the strangest places and we need to be extra imaginative to save ourselves (we know we'll be sorry if we fail to look at the smallest things for signs of doom or help)

. . in a way this seems to be the McGuyver's line (did anyone ever watch McGuyver? it was my favorite growing up and encapsulated the engineering mind, the one that will think outside of the box and find solutions to the less likely places . . from my experience also, living on a boat for long periods of time often called for coming up with solutions from the least material, that can save you from lots of trouble if you're stranded in some deserted place :rolleyes:) . . such engineering minds are always to be found among travellers, strangers and people working at sea . . my grandpa knew a lot about this (and he had 3 fingers missing due to accidents at sea) and a friend who used to be an engineer in cargo ships before taking over chemical engineering and planning a phd in fluid dynamics . . I think it would be fair to say, crossing waters always needs to come with an unusual imagination . .

(radio song:
Don't take (this)
As a sign of weakness
Check into the situation
Dig a little bit deeper
Bobby Womack)
 
M

maremaria

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. . in a way this seems to be the McGuyver's line (did anyone ever watch McGuyver? it was my favorite growing up and encapsulated the engineering mind, the one that will think outside of the box and find solutions to the less likely places . . )

Of course !!!!! I have some friend that still call me Mc + my last name :rolleyes:
 

rosada

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64.2
Nine in the second place means:
He breaks his wheels.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

Here again the time to act has not yet come. But the patience needed is not that of idle waiting without thought of the morrow. Kept up indefinitely, this would not lead to success. Instead, an individual must develop in himself the strength that will enable him to go forward. He must have a vehicle, as it were to effect the crossing. But he must for the time being use the brakes. Patience in the highest sense means putting brakes on strength. Therefore he must not fall asleep and lose sight of the goal. If he remains strong and steadfast in his resolve, all goes well in the end.
-Wilhelm
 

rosada

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Thoughts on 64.1.2.3.4.5.6
After the 63.5 sacrifice there's still a lot of that slaughtered ox left and a bunch of other fattening goodies just lying around besides...
1. Little Fox impulsively vow's he'll never touch the stuff again but he's probably just setting himself up for humiliating failure.
2. It may not be sensible to try to start a diet on a feast day, but while he's waiting for the right moment Fox can do more than wait, he must prepare.
3. Einstein said, "A problem cannot be solved at the level upon which is appears" (or something like that..) Fox may not be able to resist feast food. Can he and some friends together introduce a whole new menu?
4, Okay, we're shocked, SHOCKED!, to discover the number of calories in ox barbecue sauce. The foxes form a vegetarian support group.
5.And it works! Everyone is thrilled. The whole group is eating sensibly from now on.
6.This calls for a celebration. And maybe just one little ox rib..honest..just one..

rosada
 
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charly

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...
It is highly appreciated if someone can advise me the correct word after having understood the following explanation.

Usually a single Chinese character possesses lots of different meanings; its true significance is manifested after it is integrated with other characters, i.e. becoming a phrase.

吝 (lin3) can be understood as: stingy or hate (恨 hen4) in terms of noun, for instant, 吝嗇 (se4): stingy or 悔 (hui3: regret) 吝 (hate which covers self-blame and discontent). According to 說文解字 (shui wen jie zi), 吝 signifies 恨惜 (hen4 xi2); its literal meaning is ‘hate and feeling sorry for’, or according to my comprehension, to feel deeply sorry with self-blame and discontent.
...
朱熹 (Zhu Xi 1130 ~ 1200 A.C., a very prominent scholar of the Song dynasty in respect of Confucianism) annotated 吝 as 羞 (xiu: to feel shamed) 吝. ... however in my opinion, 羞吝 are somewhat inappropriate ...

... the first original Chinese character, are a kind of pictographs as well as compound indicatives (i.e. to understand the meaning from its constituted symbols). ... the original meaning of 吝 might be 羞吝 (humiliating), 悔吝 (remorse incl. hate), 吝 itself, or Sh_t. Who knows?
...
Hi, Tuck:

I believe that you have nothing to apologize, your english is quite good. Not my case. I understand and like your reasoning, but...

In 64.1 吝 lin is used isolated, no other character for helping in our interpretation, I haven't find hate as a regular meaning, although, of course, it can be.

I did interprete 恨惜也 from the Shuo Wen (1) as LAMENTABLE, although REGRET is a sense common to both. Hate, envy, jealousy, all bad feelings.

I believed that the Shuo Wen gives [= stingy; sparing of; close-fisted] as the meaning of 吝 lin but the whole phrase is too confuse for my little understanding.

About looking at the shape of the character for meanings, I have made some observations:

Shuo Wen also says that lin is composed of lower 口kou = mouth and upper 文wen , the postumous name of Wen Wang that among many things means CULTURED.

The old forms of 文wen depicted a MAN WITH A BIG CHEST, having in the middle of the chest a pattern that later get lost, sometimes only a dot or a line, another times a circle, a heart, a 4-leaf lucky clover. Maybe tatooes in the chest, maybe badges identity, clan marks or initiation marks. Maybe the MEN were CHIEFTAINS or SHAMANS.

ZDICT.NET brings for lin 吝 three characters corresponding to 1) oracle bone, 2) bronze and 3) clerical scrip

541D.gif
541D.gif
541D.gif

From: http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5Zdic90Zdic9D.htm

In bone character the man has already lost the patterns. It depicts a MAN before a BIG BAG, no sure if a mouth, that is not less important than the man. I imagine something like MAN + WEALTH, a WEALTHY MAN, but no more a sacred man, no more a big granter.

In little seal character the BAG belongs to the MAN, that has it GRABBED BETEEN HIS LEGS. Sharing nothing, the rich man becomes STINGY.

In clerical script character the shapes are yet standarized, iconic attributes are almost lost. We have only a MAN OF LETTERS over a MOUTH. Culture over tradition, scripture over orality. The VIP GUY became more a SCRIBE than a DIVINER.

Even more, sometimes MOUTH means NEEDY PEOPLE (UNGER):

PEOPLE suffocated by BUREAUCRACY​

Compatible with the taoist perspective of history as increasingly corrupt, it can be thought: THIS IS THE NATURE OF NEWER TIMES, SH_T!

Too fanciful maybe?

Yours,

Charly





___________________________
(1) For people willing to know what is the Shuo Wen:
http://history.cultural-china.com/en/173History2027.html
 

fkegan

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Hi Charly,

Whenever a Taoist might interpret bureaucrats as corrupt, the people suffocated by bureaucracy; the proper Confucian bureaucrat would counter that as the noble agent of the ruler who has the Mandate of Heaven, the job of the bureaucrat is to maintain order and keep the lower instincts of the masses within proper bounds. And if those with culture and appreciation of the bureaucrat's efforts wish to slip him a small gift, that is just kindness made concrete example.

Same image, two sides of one coin--rule of the many by those in power.

Frank
 
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meng

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Too fanciful maybe?

No. I think it mates well with LiSe's ideas on 64, but with a bit different set of images, but which can be interpreted similarly.

WEI JI
Wei4: a picture of a luxuriant tree. Its original meaning was 'abundant', and it is also the 8th Earthly Branch (late summer, animal is sheep). Now its meaning is 'not yet' and my opinion is, that it indicated the time of year when everything was at its maximum development, but fruit were not yet ripe. FE2331, [M7114], LiLéyi 348, GSR.531
JI4: water or a river (2) and a field of grain, all being alike (3 and 3a), meaning uniform, equal, of equal length. Meanings: a ford, to ford, to cross a stream; to relieve, to aid; to succeed, to be up to standard; to benefit, benefits.

There's associations you've both made here that I hadn't noticed before. :bows:
 

rodaki

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64.2 (to 35): well, i hope that is convenient enough . . now can we get our lives back going?
 

charly

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64.2 (to 35): well, i hope that is convenient enough . . now can we get our lives back going?
OK, Dora:

I go to make an exception, only for you: 吝lin4 stingy should be translated as REGRETTABLE. A middle way between Legge and Wilhelm, maybe compliant with Tuck explanations.

Now, passig to 64.2, for the sense of the commentaries, i believe W/B is speaking of BRAKING THE WHEEL, not of BREAKING it.

But the chinese yi4 means to DRAG / to PULL / TRACTION , maybe seen as helping the supposed (1) carriage to pass a difficult, marshy ford.

Soon the complete line in chinese.

Best whishes,

Charly
_____________________________
(1) The YI doesn't speak of that carriage, only of a WHEEL, maybe like this 命運之 [WHEEL OF FORTUNE]:

La-Rone-du-Fortune-The-Whee.jpg

From: 留著歐洲血液的霍華德
At: http://howard0730.blogspot.com/2008/08/blog-post_16.html
 
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charly

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No. I think it mates well with LiSe's ideas on 64, but with a bit different set of images, but which can be interpreted similarly.
There's associations you've both made here that I hadn't noticed before. :bows:
Thanks, Bruce:

Of course, LiSe was my inspiration since 2002 for begining with the analysis of the chinese characters. I know that scholars use to reject the "inspirational" method of interpreting the shapes of whole characters, even the so called phonetic componentes, sometimes meaningful at least in ancient chinese texts.

Given that true I-Chingers don't trust in casualities I believe that no matters the historical truth of character evolution so much than the fact of meanings deep rooted in human nature.

all the best,

Charly
 

charly

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...
Same image, two sides of one coin--rule of the many by those in power...
Hi, Frank:

I know the way you think, we have some things in common. All the classics have voices complaining of rulers' abuse, even the Book of Odes have it. Why not the Changes?

Of course, its sense has been changed by later edition, censorship or accident, but here and there issues something. Diviners were under the direct authority of rulers, they were smart people fond of good life that risked the neck in the job of divination. They must have hidden some messages for their companions or the posterity.

They have to be resented sometimes with authority, customs, society... They were human beings.

Yours,

Charly


P.D.
Frank, do you like gambling? Don't you trust that 64.2 might be about roulettes or the same?
Ch.
 

fkegan

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Hi, Frank:

I know the way you think, we have some things in common. All the classics have voices complaining of rulers' abuse, even the Book of Odes have it. Why not the Changes?
Hi Charly, remember all those rulers were part of dynasties that came to power by revolution against the prior dynasty claiming those other guys were so abusive they lost the Mandate of Heaven. So complaining about some rulers abuse was patriotic, it was just saying this dynasty needed to go that was dangerous--until it was on everyone's lips and the new dynasty's army emerged from underground. ( cf. hex 49 and 7)
Of course, its sense has been changed by later edition, censorship or accident, but here and there issues something. Diviners were under the direct authority of rulers, they were smart people fond of good life that risked the neck in the job of divination. They must have hidden some messages for their companions or the posterity. They have to be resented sometimes with authority, customs, society... They were human beings..

Also folks went to their street corner diviner for private, personal help. Telling their clients that they were the victim of evil oppression by bureaucrats or demons has always gone over better (and earned bigger tips) then telling them to see their own faults and take responsibility for their own situation.

P.D.Frank, do you like gambling? Don't you trust that 64.2 might be about roulettes or the same?
Ch.

Here in Vegas, gambling is our big business with a major share of the tax base. it is only the players' losses that keep employment and government services functioning. Personally, when I first arrived I enjoyed gambling but then I got gambling software where you never lose real cash and the casinos hit hard times and couldn't afford such nice payouts any more so they aren't fun anymore. They are more affected by tobacco smoking bans, turns out their big players are addicts and smokers and only gamble while they are puffing away to soften their losses. So gambling means risking your lungs to smoke.

As to 64.2 it is clearly putting on the brakes. If associated to a roulette wheel or the Wheel of Fortune or Fate it would mean stop gambling and get control of yourself. Hex 64.2>> 35 would highlight hex 35 The Rising Son (Sun) as dealing with not going off on your own just because you were dreaming about it last night, wait to accumulate your posse and the dawn has become full daylight--but in all terms and all ways--don't let your momentum carry you away, stop fully until you can see what needs to be done and you have help doing it. I suspect the brakes upon the cart wheels in ancient China were new technology, so it was also a reference to use what is all the newest high-tech way to exert control in your world. Again the opposite of Wheel of Fortune. If roulette wheels are the needed image, then it would be to focus upon what it is that is braking the wheel or determining where it will come to rest--beware the fixed game and again don't be a wild addict.

Overall, each line tells about some way in which the general work toward completion has been compromised or lost by moving this line. The early lines have problems, failure for line 1; the need to regroup to avoid failure for this line.
Frank
 
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rodaki

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OK, Dora:

I go to make an exception, only for you: 吝lin4 stingy should be translated as REGRETTABLE. A middle way between Legge and Wilhelm, maybe compliant with Tuck explanations.

Now, passig to 64.2, for the sense of the commentaries, i believe W/B is speaking of BRAKING THE WHEEL, not of BREAKING it.

But the chinese yi4 means to DRAG / to PULL / TRACTION , maybe seen as helping the supposed (1) carriage to pass a difficult, marshy ford.

Soon the complete line in chinese.

Best whishes,

Charly


thank you Charly, I believe you are right . . this line is about putting on the brakes -maybe to align the wheels before the crossing? maybe not such a good time to look back though . .

looking forward to your line analysis . .
:bows:
 

rosada

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64.2

Nine in the second place:

a) He brakes his wheels.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

b) The nine in the second place has good fortune if it is persevering. It is central and hence acts correctly.

Here the image is of the wheel and braking, which in the preceding hexagram is associated with the first line in virtue of its strength, is transferred to the strong second line. The strength and correctness of the latter make the out look favorable.
-Wilhelm
 

fkegan

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Applying the brake in a traditional cart, especially if it were heavy laden and heading down hill required great strength and effort. It was putting all you had into forcing your control of the cart against the strong momentum of the timing. In hex 64.2>>35 this is the marshaling of all the assembled elements to become the vehicle of your initiative under your command. By doing so, you are not just trying to cross the frozen river, but making this your personal project to achieve your own goal.

Frank
 

rosada

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64.3

Six in the third place means:

Before completion, attack brings misfortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

The time of completion has arrived, but one lacks the strength to complete the transition. If one should attempt to force it, disaster would result, because collapse would be unavoidable. What is to be done?
A new situation must be created; one must engage the energies of able helpers and in this fellowship take the decisive step - cross the great water. Then completion will become possible.
-Wilhelm
 

tuckchang

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64.3

Text: Wei Ji (not having crossed the river yet); it is ominous to undertake a venture; it is instrumental in crossing the great river. The mission hasn't been completed yet; it is ominous to take aggressive action but it is instrumental in carrying on the mission.

‘Line 3 at the end of the bottom trigram Kan and in correlation with line 6’ signals that it will possibly succeed in crossing both the bottom and the inner upper trigram Kan, and reaching the end of Wei Ji, the riverbank. It is at the position for marching upward (from the bottom trigram to the upper trigram); therefore it is instrumental in crossing the great river. However, it is the feminine in a place for masculinity and over the middle of the bottom trigram (i.e. moderation), signifying it (lacks momentum and) doesn't act righteously but radically; therefore this will be ominous if it takes aggressive action to undertake a venture.

Wei Ji (not having crossed the river yet); it is ominous to undertake a venture as the position is inappropriate.’ says Confucian commentary on its image.
Line 3 is in a position of leaving the bottom trigram Kan, the river and peril, but it is starting to cross an undercurrent and another peril in front. It has the opportunity to overcome all these crises, but it must make use of the experience leant in the past, and act prudently and cautiously for the forthcoming challenge.

The hexagram that appears while this line is activated, is Ding: to innovate (50), signifying to convert the current infeasibility into a future possibility.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

rosada

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64.3

Six in the third place:

a) Before completion, attack brings misfortune.
It furthers ne to cross the great water.

b) "Before completion, attack brings misfortune." The place is not the appropriate one.

The place is at the end of the lower primary trigram K'an, danger, so that completion would be possible. But since the line is too weak for this decisive position, and since it stands at the beginning of the nuclear trigram K'an, a new danger arises.
One should not attempt to force completion but should try to get clear of the whole situation. A change of character is necessary. Owing to the fact that the line changes from a six into a nine, the trigram Sun develops below; this, together with the primary trigram K'an, results inthe image of a boat over water, hence the crossing of the great water.
-Wilhelm
 

rosada

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Can anyone give a real life example for this line? It reads as if the advice is to abandon one's project and try something new entirely, but I find that hard to believe - especially because 64.3 changes to 50 and all that feeling of success.
Thoughts:
64.1 You wish to express yourself but no one is hearing what you have to say.
64.2 Wait your turn.
64.3 Give up and change the subject?
Rosada
 

fkegan

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Can anyone give a real life example for this line? It reads as if the advice is to abandon one's project and try something new entirely, but I find that hard to believe - especially because 64.3 changes to 50 and all that feeling of success.
Thoughts:
64.1 You wish to express yourself but no one is hearing what you have to say.
64.2 Wait your turn.
64.3 Give up and change the subject?
Rosada

Hi Rosada,

Each moving line, since it changes hex 64 toward something else is about leaving the completion of the project. The first line fails, project over. The second line is putting on the brakes because trying to cross the river ice would fail, better to wait awhile.
Line 3 has for its project attacking another place. But to get there would require raising an army. But no army is available. This line must cross the great river to recruit an army and train it and raise support for the war. This line gives up his foolish immediate intent and must refocus upon the long term project and putting in the needed preparations to eventually succeed.

The lines of the lower trigram are far from the Next situation where completion could be obtained (line 6). This line changes to hex 50 the hexagram of the integration of religion into daily life. So examples of this oracle would be easily available--You want to become the great celebrity and crush your high school rival who beat you out for Prom Queen but you don't have a band even to make your fame. So, forget about the war, get to work putting your band together and getting gigs so you can be discovered.

Give up vengeance and ego. Get to work on your big project, and go home to Thanksgiving dinner (hex 50) and sing grace before the meal to establish family support and show your spiritual side.

Frank
 

rosada

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50/Thanksgiving dinner - Thanks Frank! If we ever try something like this again I would want to include a bit about the second hexagram for each change line..

Meanwhile I think it is interesting to note how first the little fox is trying to walk across the ice and get's his tail wet, then he tries to make it across in a wagon and realizes that's not going to work either and now here we've abandoned all the crossing over the ice ideas and are looking for a boat.
It reminds me of the Marx brothers' routine on "How we came to America."
Rosada
 

rosada

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Asked for a real life situation and got one:
A friend of mine has had a lot of difficulties with a new tenant. My friend would like to evict this tenant before she's even fully moved in, but that might be difficult as there is a lease. Thus "Before completion [of the lease] attack brings misfortune." My friend is now considering getting a realtor and selling the house (thus the bit about getting help from others) and doing something else entirely - "crossing the great water."
-Rosada

p.s. The Marx brother's scene went something like this, "We got in a plane and flew to America. We got close but we ran out of gas and had to go back. We gotta another plane and flew again. This time we got so close but again we ran out of gas and had to turn back. So we got in a steam ship and that's how we come to America."
 
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