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Blog post: Inner li as vision

hilary

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This is just a speculative post, or a starting point for speculation…

I’ve started thinking of the trigram li – fire and light – as being like eyes, particularly when it’s the inner trigram. Then sometimes it seems to look out at the outer trigram, and sometimes it seems to look through the outer trigram, as through a lens or a filter to perception.

Hexagram 49, Radical Change: fire in the lake. I think of the tiger change and leopard change, and the trigrams start to look like the shaman’s eyes shining through the new mask. You could imagine how awareness is radically changed by its new way of relating and being; you could imagine how the way of being and relating (that is, the ‘form of government’ on a personal level) is transformed by a new awareness that lights it up from within.

Hexagram 36, Brightness Hiding: fire hidden away under the earth. It’s night-time; perhaps the eyes are closed, and the light of awareness is earthed up like a charcoal-burner’s fire.You might be hiding the extent of your insight (often what 36 seems to be advising); you might be seeing in an earth-like way: open, receptive, not doing anything to change what you see, just being aware.

Hexagram 63, Already Across: fire under water, the picture of a pot on the boil, and of awareness firmly trained on change, flow and risk. The noble one ‘reflects on distress and prepares to defend against it.’

Hexagram 13, People in Harmony, fire under heaven. I imagine the people gathered round the fire and looking up at the night sky, each tribe identifying one constellation as the image of their own ancestor, seeing how all the different shapes are part of one sky.

Hexagram 22, Beauty: fire under the mountain. The noble one is ‘bringing light to the many standards’, looking at the rules and boundaries, solid as rock, that contain human life. Perhaps she watches the changing patterns of light flickering over the rock, or perhaps she sees the mountain as if from the inside, observing how even this grows and changes. And perhaps she notices how the mountain stands in the way of her vision and limits how far she can see. She ‘does not venture to pass judgement.’

Hexagram 55, Abundance, Feng, the moment of decision: thunder and lightning culminate as one. The world is seen in terms of responsibility, what must be done. Swiftly, decisively, immediately, vision translates into action. (In contrast with Hexagram 21, where the trigrams are reversed, and action and experience translate into understanding.)

Hexagram 37, People the Home, fire inside and wind/wood outside. It could be that the family are looking out through the wooden structure of their home, seeing with the influence and mores of the home as their filter. It also suggests bringing clear awareness to your influence: the noble one’s* ‘words have substance and her actions are consistent.’

Hexagram 30, Clarity, fire within fire and spreading illumination, is harder to write about. I’ve an idea this may be because it refers to a kind of awareness that’s completely outside my experience.

Anyway, that’s one way to interpret li on the inside, as eyes and a place to see from.

(Does it play a similar role on the outside? Certainly in 64 it seems to be the eyes and ears of the fox crossing the river, li above kan…)
 
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meng

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Good thoughts! Easy to apply. Seems too obvious to miss, but I hadn't given that much thought before. Eyes of fire.

I don't recall the name of the ancient tribe, I think between South America and North America, and how the island at that time resembled a man, and the island was a man, and the man had eyes. These eyes were located on the man's head part of the island, and were in fact deep caves, which had since been filled with the rising ocean, but a vast cave structure, able to hold thousands was within. For them the eyes were a fortification; going into the head of a god. Trusting belongings there. It was an amazing and quite recent find.

So, does 30.1 mean looking cross-eyed? I received it about tracking a package, but the online tracking info didn't show it landing in either of the two major hubs, yet showed it en-route with a today delivery date. The tracking eyes are not looking at the same thing. It just says it's 56-ing it's way across the country. :rolleyes:
 
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elvis

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In the EIC focus, fire covers:

(a) guidance when in the lower position.
(b) guidance doubled and so a sense direction, an ideology, in the upper position.

The expanding nature of fire (in IDM it maps to expansive bounding, a boundary moving outwards) brings out the conversion of 'difference' to 'sameness' (i.e. ash) and so the association with issues of the primary emotion of acceptance.

The focus on guidance/direction brings out the use of light to 'show the way' and so the focus on seeing etc but this also covers sensing in general. Using the binary sequence we have:

36 - with/from guidance comes trust in another/others - this reflects the need to hide the light/ideology as there are no likeminded around (when compared to the other end of the fire octet giving us 13 - with guidance comes single-mindedness - lots of likeminded around to all work as if 'one') - the overall emphasis is on being uncompromising in devotion (as compared to the compromise focus of 06)


22 - with/from guidance comes discernment (quality control).

63 - with/from guidance comes control (imposing of order/correctness)

37 - with/from guidance comes becoming influential (cultivating etc)

55 - with/from guidance comes awareness (we see the diversity etc)

30 - with/from guidance comes direction (an ideology)

49 - with/from guidance comes intensity in expression (the intenseness of revelation/revolution)

13 - with/from guidance comes single-mindedness.

We can form a pairing of qualities using this binary order 'octet':

36 - 13 (no like minded / likeminded)
22 - 49 (cover up / reveal)
63 - 30 (rigid correct sequence / vague guidance/ideology)
37 - 55 (rigidity for tension release /diversity in tension release)

then we have the qualitative shift of fire in the upper position:

35 - with devotion to another/others comes direction (an ideology - bring something into the light)

56 - with self-restraint comes direction/ideology (focus is on issues of loyalty at a distance)

64 - with containment comes direction (incompleteness also covers the positive of remaining open intentionally)

50 - with cultivation comes direction/ideology - the focus on transformation

21 - with enlightenment(shock) comes direction/ideology (the focus on problem solving, on dealing with divergences etc)

38 - with self-reflection comes direction/ideology (Covers the use of mirroring etc to protect a perspective that is different through use of reflecting others etc)

14 - with perseverance comes direction/ideology - the person of 'vision' determining success both financially and socially etc.

What Hilary differentiates as inside and outside cover the qualitative differences of trigrams placed in lower and upper positions - the EIC table is:

trigram - lower meaning - upper meaning

heaven - perseverance - single-mindedness (total trust in self)
lake - self-reflection - intensity in expression
fire - guidance - direction/ideology
thunder - enlightenment - awareness
wind - cultivation - becoming influential
water - containment - control
mountain - self-restraint - discernment
earth - devotion to another - dualmindedness (total trust in another)
 

elvis

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Since emotions are the standard response system to sensory experiences, in particular the secondary harmonics of such and so colours of vision, chords of audition etc, the primary emotion tied to fire is that of acceptance. Thus touching on issues of what is pleasing to a sense and so covering 'pleasing to the eye' but also other senses.

Hilary writes:

Hexagram 36, Brightness Hiding: fire hidden away under the earth. It’s night-time; perhaps the eyes are closed, and the light of awareness is earthed up like a charcoal-burner’s fire.You might be hiding the extent of your insight (often what 36 seems to be advising); you might be seeing in an earth-like way: open, receptive, not doing anything to change what you see, just being aware.

The sensation of acceptance covered by fear (the emotion associated with earth that is refined into protection through numbers and so devotion/trust in another/others) brings out something that is not pleasing, not acceptable, and so in need for covering up. The binary ordering allows us to then make association with 'opposites' in the sequence and so 36 with 13 - a lack of likemindedness combined with one's uncompromise in not being prepared to surrender that 'light', compared to being accepted, being pleasing that elicits sharing with others of like mind (13).
 

cesca

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Elegant

This is such an elegant, simple and beautiful way of seeing the relationship between the trigrams.

I just tried it out; threw the coins on what feels like a big life decision, a fork in the road. Didn't get any Li, but got Kun over Xun ... and if I take the essence of Xun to be responsive change, it seems to be saying to let it happen in an earth-like way, to unfold naturally without a compulsion to make a linear plan and try to know in advance where the process is going. Which is, of course, what 46 is saying. Especially Line 6, which was what it handed me. It reminds me of that line from the Talmud: "Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, 'Grow, grow'." So perhaps this isn't a time for seeing clearly, but a time to listen through the green fuse (and keep going).

It's so obvious, but you have written it so clearly that it makes that way of connecting with the trigram relationship more accessible. To me anyway. :)
 

fkegan

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The ultimate expression of seeing trigram li as an eye is in the commentary upon hex 56.5 where the trigram is first viewed as a line drawing of the eye of a pheasant (a bird associated to the trigram li) and then as a moving line that changes the notion of an eye into the image of the trigram of 3 Yang lines, sunshine which then suggests that the arrow shot at the pheasant misses due to the glare of the sun or equally well would show the fatal accuracy of the arrow strike bringing down the bird and leaving a clear sunny sky.

Structurally, trigram li is about focusing upon initial conditions and final results with the process in the middle ignored, as a fire burning its log or other fuel with the new reality of the fire and the initial ingredient of the fuel important and the destruction of the structure of the wood or its material slipped into the background.

Taking the trigram as two Yang lines highlighting the open Yin space between them results in seeing the trigram as an eye which is then the vital organ giving meaning to the trigram.

The question remains is trigram li about what comes next after the processing or destruction of prior structure or material or is it about what comes through the open Yin space to notice what is going on.

Is trigram li the symbol of eyeglasses or binoculars selecting or organizing part of the available vista or is it about developing process where the next is highlighted rather than the prior from which it came.

Frank
 

pantherpanther

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Seeing is about staying "in question" without judgment and the acceptance of the present with a critical mind in order to see more.
The gaze of a shaman's "strong eyes" resembles an inner fire radiating from "the back of the head." This is a trance state.
For Job, seeing and acceptance is in the heart or mind , yet the imagery of the eyes is used (as elsewhere in the Bible) :
"Hast thou eyes of flesh? ....seest thou as man seeth?"
Job 10:4
John Wesley (c. 1764) comments: "10:4 Eyes of faith - No. Eyes of flesh cannot see in the dark: but darkness hideth not from God. Eyes of flesh are but in one place at a time, and can see but a little way. But the eyes of the Lord are in every place, and run to and fro thro' the whole earth. Eyes of flesh will shortly be darkened by age, and shut up by death. But the eyes of God are ever the same, nor does his sight ever decay. As [for] man - Man sees the outside only, and judges by appearances: but thou seest mine heart."
 
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hilary

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Oh, I like that - the relationship between seeing and accepting. There's connection there between fire > light > vision > accepting > holding together.

Anyway, very happy to have written something too obvious to miss!

I do like 30.1 for the wandering package with footsteps going criss-cross. I think of that line in terms of trying to read the ancestor-animals' footprints; even if you can't exactly read the message, at least you can see they're out there somewhere. That one belongs on the 'aha' thread.

Guidance/ direction? Or point/angle of view, perspective? Or process of change and transmutation? Interesting to try all these out.
 
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meng

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There was an issue with a damaged guitar case (we swapped guitars), and so it left a day later than scheduled, but that information hadn't been updated on the tracking data. So it really was like two eyes looking in independent directions.

 

knotxx

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I am curious about Hexagram 30 in terms of relationships (sorry, I know this is a slight digression; please just ignore me if it doesn't seem related enough). A friend of mine once asked me to help her with understanding Hex 30, which she got for her epically dysfunctional relationship with her ex, the father of her daughter. I have no strong opinion about reincarnation but their relationship often made me think about past lives, since they seemed to be working out something none of us (including them) could see. I have also gotten Hex 30 more than once for my relationship with my boss, also a long term (20+ years) and only semi-functional relationship neither of us seem to be able to leave.

I think of flames feeding on each other somehow? Just wondering how this works into these lovely and interesting ideas about li.
 

elvis

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re hex 30; if she got this using magical/random methods then there is no determination if it is the 'best fit' or not. Any questioning of the result would suggest it is NOT the best fit (but our consciousness will try and rationalise the result into being the 'best fit', even in the form of 'but the I Ching told me that so it must be right!'.)

The magical/random methods cover different levels of probabilities with the most extreme being 1 in 64 chance of being 'right'. Yarrow stick usage skews the odds to yin-containing hexagrams being more likely (and so fitting the reactive nature of the ancient times).
 

hilary

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Elvis, it's OK, we know you don't believe in divination. Maybe you could put a note to that effect in your signature, and then see what else you have to add?

On a purely informational and off-topic note... odds of each hexagram as primary, cast hexagram, are equal with yarrow odds as with coins. It's the odds of which lines change (more yang), and hence of which second hexagram you get (more yin), that are shifted.

30 in relationships - holding together, a question of how you sustain one another? Maybe one that you have to maintain, like it's necessary to rear cattle if you want to preserve your way of life? That could be an economic thing (as with boss-employee, and does the ex still pay maintenance?), or maybe something more subtle - work that's necessary to maintain the capacity for awareness somehow.
 

elvis

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Magical/random methods are unreliable in giving consistent, testable, results. If we focus on the random aspect, they present one aspect of the whole where the situation is defined by all aspects of that whole - IOW EVERY hexagram is applicable to EVERY situation at the level of CLASSES of meaning. The local context then contributes where we can sort the 64 classes into best-fit/worst-fit order to bring out the form of the instance - but there is no identification of that order using magical/random methods.

That said, the magical focus is on a hexagram being derived that fits the situation perfectly, it is all 'synchronised' with some 'force' that oversees all there is etc - however, any statistical study of such results compared, say, to the EIC methodology will CLEARLY demonstrate the consistency/testability of the latter and the unreliability of the former. We are not interested in whether the magical/random can work, we are interested on the consistency and testability of our assessments of situations and the answers we get (which at times can be very personal and in need for good, meaningful, truthful, on-the-ball, results).

There are times when the magical/random can generate the best fit hexagram or one of the top ten and then it is easy to 'fill in the missing bits' to make it work - rationalisation of consciousness at work - but the methodology overall is unreliable.

It would of course be unadvisable for those preferring magical/random methods to test such since the methodology WILL be brought into question re reliability, consistency, testability and in doing so can have an affect on issues of identity ;)

Adapt to change dudette ;-) Denying the I Ching's fullest expression is a no-no in that you limit yourself and others... so you need to prove me wrong and you right. You prepared for such a contest? I am. :cool:

BTW - as for hexagram 30 and relationships. What class of relationship would you like to cover? E.g. how does 30 express the sense of relationship covered in hexagram 37 (family)? The analogy is to the generic qualities of 45.

EVERY hexagram can be interpreted as representing some form of relationship and the language nature of the I Ching allows us to find out how ANY hexagram will manifest each of those relationships in its own 'special' way.
 

pantherpanther

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Magic is not random, and it can be practiced as an art and a science. This is what certain rituals do, when rightly exercised. The art of divination is related to the mind's ability to manipulate matter in order to acquire information and process it. The I Ching is one system that can be used to generate information relevant to the query of the diviner.
 

jilt

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ehh, returning to responsibilities, the ability to give response, meeting the other eye.

Once I was studying Chinese philosophy with a very kind professor. We were discussing the lines of the yi, and then he asked me: "but Bert, why do you want to put the lines all the time in hierarchy. Perhaps that can be helpful in many cases, but you must take in consideration that lines are basically not hierarchical, that is our projection an the projection, or even a legitimation of a very hierarchical Chinese society."
That was an eye-opener. When you put hex 30 on the side you see to eyes that work together to give depth on our vision, matching and rhyming the inner and our outer vision. When they rhyme we feel able to respond with our actions.
By the way, we don't need eyes, we need vision. It is a very strange process, perceiving energies, translating them to patterns we call vision, and then relating to it in our world as a substance. That is a mystery.
On an energetic level everything is connected and can be seen, interpreted as resonating energypatterns. Magic.
 
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meng

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Magical/random methods are unreliable in giving consistent, testable, results.
So? And only so if you don't expect a concise answer. Magic requires a departure from logic, a quantum leap of sorts. Just as with effective prayer.
 

fkegan

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So? And only so if you don't expect a concise answer. Magic requires a departure from logic, a quantum leap of sorts. Just as with effective prayer.
A concise answer from Elvis/CL? That is beyond his current abilities. From fixed ideas come only fixed responses and for those who see the world solely in simplistic either/or choices they recognize only their own stuff and all else rejected as not-their-stuff. However, since everyone else is not-them we get to live in the real world.

Magic has its own logic which happens to include all creative human endeavors including science. I used to use the phrase, "Science is Magic" as a litmus test-- the inventive creative scientists would reply, "Of course, that's what fascinates me in my research!"
And those who replied, "OH, NO!" Magic is in no way science" never managed anything interesting or insightful to say after that.

Divination is a unique answer to YOUR personal question. Science is defined as the reports of what can be duplicated by any researcher over and over again at any time or place without limit. They simply don't overlap at all.

Those into divination are free to explore the reports of science. Those insisting only science and its methods and reports are valid are not allowed to visit any other realms, including of course their own subjective reality.

More generally, it is only partial, now-obsolete neurological research that still sees mental functioning as any sort of binary operation. The brain synapses have rhythms of firing and quiet that are processed. To see only simple dichotomy is like saying that since musical instruments are either making sound or silent there are differences between great symphonies and practice scales--they are all just sounds some of the time.

Similarly, reducing the Yi to just Yang and Yin leaves nothing of the development of the Yi since 1100 BCE. The whole of the Yi since the innovation of the King Wen Sequence is about meaning contained in entire sets of patterns rather than just the elements or line values used.

But, returning to the topic at hand, what about LI as trigram and hexagram 30.
Hexagram 30 in relationship questions would suggest more along the line of the clinging than the eye. Fire clings to its fuel logs--and destroys them in all sorts of energetic displays and spitting embers. To the good, being fluid following the available fuel and making the best of its inner content would be a good thing.

Is the trigram li the same as the hexagram li or are they two very different entities composed of similar elements. The trigram li is associated to fire burning upon a wooden log, destroying the log structure to create light and heat and giving energy for human activity. The only associations to eyes or seeing are the graphical element of an open space in the middle of the line strokes. This image is taken to represent a net more than an eye.

In the commentary, hexagram li is associated to sunlight and the progress of time through the day. The name of the hexagram in Wilhelm is associated with 'clinging' and the notion of fire clinging to and depending upon the shape of its fuel, that is fire is fluid and clings to its source. Taking care of your cows allows for the eventual maximum output of milk, calves and meat as the inner life is nurtured and brought out.

The seeing seems to come more from the clarity that fire light can bring to a dark situation than to li referring to the eye. The moral value of trigram li seems to be associated not with seeing through an inner eye; but rather clinging to and being molded by proper moral values.

Frank
 
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meng

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A concise answer from Elvis/CL?
From the Yijing. Meaning, it's no wonder that Chris receives only vague answers from magical methods, since he doesn't believe in magic.

That's cool. Chris' posts have helped me on plenty of occasions.
 

elvis

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So? And only so if you don't expect a concise answer. Magic requires a departure from logic, a quantum leap of sorts. Just as with effective prayer.
there is no departure from logic, there is a dumbing down of logic where the full logic of asymmetric thinking loses resolution power to become symmetric logic. It is in the realm of the symmetric that instance/class confusions manifest themselves.

"The Principle of Generalization.
The system unconscious treats an individual thing (person, object, concept) as if it were a member or element of a set or class which contains other members; it treats this class as a subclass of a more general class, and this more general class as a subclass of a still more general class and so on"
P 34 Matte-Blanco, I., (1975)"The Unconscious as Infinite Sets" Karnec

"...symmetrical relations do not seem at first sight to be as common as asymmetrical ones when perceiving the external world with its geometry and geography of things, which is replete with difference relations between places, points, lines surfaces, spaces and solid things. However, at the same time we must continuously use sameness relations when dealing with the world. Perhaps asymmetry comes to the fore because a prime use of consciousness is to *locate* the self within the world of objects. This is a central function of the focus of attention. Notice also that we are concerned with logically asymmetrical and symmetrical relations, which are defined by the identity or not of their converses; they apply to much more than spacial relations.
The word symmetry simply refers to *sameness* between at least two things and thus to matching and one-to-one correspondence." pp23-24 Rayner, E., (2003)"Unconscious Logic : an introduction to Matte Blanco's bi-logic and its uses" Brunner-Routledge

We see here the focus on location " ..which needs difference discrimination, and recognition which needs sensitivity to samenesses." pp 25 Rayner, E., (2003)"Unconscious Logic : an introduction to Matte Blanco's bi-logic and its uses" Brunner-Routledge


The play of 'all is connected' is grounded in sameness and so in symmetry and so properties of such a perspective dominate. The problem for full consciousness is that the realm of the symmetric lacks precision and is more 'lite social' interactions based on emotional symmetries combined with a lack of direction that means a sharing of space with the logic of dreams. ALL primitive mindsets will show these characteristics - for example 10th century BC IC perspectives.

Full consciousness comes out of differentiation (the location element mentioned above) and brings out the emerging uniqueness of an individual. In this emergence the individual can become more universal and so more asocial. Jung covers this well:

"We can say that individuals are equal only in so far as they are in a large measure unconscious - unconscious, that is, of their actual differences. The more unconscious a man is, the more he will conform to the general canon of psychic behaviour. But the more conscious he becomes of his individuality, the more pronounced will be his difference from other subjects and the less he will come up to common expectations. Further, his reactions are much less predictable. This is due to the fact that an individual consciousness is more highly differentiated and more extensive. But the more extensive it becomes the more differences it will perceive and the more it will emancipate itself from the collective rules, for the empirical freedom of the will grows in proportion to the extension of consciousness.
As the individual differentiation of consciousness proceeds, the objective validity of its views decreases and their subjectivity increases, at least in the eyes of the environment, if not in actual fact. For if a view is to be valid, it must have the acclaim of the greatest possible number, regardless of the arguments put forward in its favour. "True" and "valid" describe what the majority believe, for this confirms the equality of all. But differentiated consciousness no longer takes it for granted that one's own preconceptions are applicable to others, and vice versa" p83 C. Jung, The Nature of the Psyche (RKP)


I could comment more but the person who went off topic in introducing hex 30 (where all my prose was ON topic prior to that) elicited a set of responses to that off topic element whereupon I was informed by the moderator that I was 'off topic'! (or more so my alternative perspective was not appreciated) - extraordinary - and to not interrupt!

Frank's email is not worthy of a reply (or more so the moderator may get upset that the rudeness in Frank's email would be returned and of course I would be the culprit again!)
 

elvis

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From the Yijing. Meaning, it's no wonder that Chris receives only vague answers from magical methods, since he doesn't believe in magic.
If you believe this then you dont understand and obviously confuse instances with classes - and so present symmetric thinking - which is fine until one needs consistent, reliable, repeatable data and the EIC shows CLEARLY that that is possible and offers methodology superior to the current traditionalist mindset - the problem of course is it can require one to think.
 

fkegan

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From the Yijing. Meaning, it's no wonder that Chris receives only vague answers from magical methods, since he doesn't believe in magic.
Yes, quite. An accurate and insightful Yi Oracle would be most unkind, striking to the very heart of his fundamental assumptions. Fortunately no one is obliged to understand the Oracle results. Though it is cute when someone asks a question from the Oracle and then insists it can't be understood though everyone else around finds it precise and insightful. But that involves a situation of empirical verification and objective review. I used to do such things in various groups.The "science types" either showed their personal flexibility or their hard shelled fundamentalism. But then the question put to the Oracle wasn't just their private matter but a group issue.


That's cool. Chris' posts have helped me on plenty of occasions.
It would be tough not to find something interesting in the torrent of words taken as words in general. It is only the circular logic starting and ending with binary dualism that goes nowhere.

Frank
 

tuckchang

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What is science? 1 + 1 = 2
What is life? I work hard, but the company bankrupts and I lose my job.

What is logic? 1 + 1 = 2 10 + 10 = 20 100 + 100 = 200 ………….
1000…… + 1000…… = 2000…….
What is life? Alan loves Bella, Bella loves Clark, Clark loves Dale, Dale loves Edward ……..but Linda.doesn’t love me.

What is system? 000000 100000 010000 001000………….
What is life? 000000 100000 010000 001000 a crash

What is insight? X-ray and our consciousness

What is accuracy? The Godfather comes to your house and asks whether he can make that investment.

What is the I Ching? A philosophy of life; you have your aspects and I have mine.
I can’t prove my argumentation is right because I can’t wake up the writer of the I Ching. Can you?

Regards
Tuck :bows: :bows:
 

pantherpanther

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...
But, returning to the topic at hand, what about LI as trigram and hexagram 30.
Hexagram 30 in relationship questions would suggest more along the line of the clinging than the eye. Fire clings to its fuel logs--and destroys them in all sorts of energetic displays and spitting embers. To the good, being fluid following the available fuel and making the best of its inner content would be a good thing.

Is the trigram li the same as the hexagram li or are they two very different entities composed of similar elements. The trigram li is associated to fire burning upon a wooden log, destroying the log structure to create light and heat and giving energy for human activity. The only associations to eyes or seeing are the graphical element of an open space in the middle of the line strokes. This image is taken to represent a net more than an eye.

In the commentary, hexagram li is associated to sunlight and the progress of time through the day. The name of the hexagram in Wilhelm is associated with 'clinging' and the notion of fire clinging to and depending upon the shape of its fuel, that is fire is fluid and clings to its source. Taking care of your cows allows for the eventual maximum output of milk, calves and meat as the inner life is nurtured and brought out.

The seeing seems to come more from the clarity that fire light can bring to a dark situation than to li referring to the eye. The moral value of trigram li seems to be associated not with seeing through an inner eye; but rather clinging to and being molded by proper moral values.

Frank
There are Fire and Water schools in the Taoist and other traditions. The Fire practitioners stress super-efforts to attain self-mastery and eschew integrating all parts of their being in their work, working out the gaps later ; while the Water ones stress harmonious,graduated development with no parts left undeveloped in the process.
I generally agree with what you write about li. What I meant by seeing and acceptance was the mind's capacity to observe without emotion (reaction) or judgment - similar to a beginning stage in Buddhist practices: the mental stripping away of attachment to thoughts and desires . It can be used to take pictures but not to understand them. As Rilke said, "Now for some heartwork on all those pictures." The ordinary mind's virtue is that it knows there is a future. This function of the mind doesn't care about the present and is not aware of my life and being . It can be used like a tool. There is a saying of Gurdjieff : " When the mind remembers, let it go." When it reaches its limit through an intentional effort, it should allow a deeper attention to take charge. Zen masters may hit you on the head to assist a transition .
 
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M

meng

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Magic has its own logic which happens to include all creative human endeavors including science. I used to use the phrase, "Science is Magic" as a litmus test-- the inventive creative scientists would reply, "Of course, that's what fascinates me in my research!"
And those who replied, "OH, NO!" Magic is in no way science" never managed anything interesting or insightful to say after that.

Divination is a unique answer to YOUR personal question. Science is defined as the reports of what can be duplicated by any researcher over and over again at any time or place without limit. They simply don't overlap at all.

Those into divination are free to explore the reports of science. Those insisting only science and its methods and reports are valid are not allowed to visit any other realms, including of course their own subjective reality.
I agree with the above completely. Which is probably why I take no offense to Chris' denial of what he loves to refer to as magical thinking. To me, magic is only science we haven't rationalized yet. There really is no magic, other than that which doesn't fit our linear landscape, called reasoning. That's why Chris can't make heads or tails of divination. Besides, it would make him a hypocrite if he did.

I scan Chris' posts, intuitively looking for a 'best fit'. Usually when he applies his reasoning to specifics, rather than arguing its legitimacy or degrading the views of others, there is a fascinating logic, which does to lead to reliable and repeatable conclusions. I don't dis or dismiss that.
 

sparhawk

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I scan Chris' posts, intuitively looking for a 'best fit'. Usually when he applies his reasoning to specifics, rather than arguing its legitimacy or degrading the views of others, there is a fascinating logic, which does to lead to reliable and repeatable conclusions. I don't dis or dismiss that.
:bows: To dismiss Chris, off-hand, because is "Chris," could lead to a waste of useful and important information.
 

buzzurro

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Hexagram 36, Brightness Hiding: fire hidden away under the earth. It’s night-time; perhaps the eyes are closed, and the light of awareness is earthed up like a charcoal-burner’s fire.You might be hiding the extent of your insight (often what 36 seems to be advising); you might be seeing in an earth-like way: open, receptive, not doing anything to change what you see, just being aware.
By the way, I recently read on LiSe's site that Ming Yi was also translated as "Injury to the Eye" by Waley (http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_33-48/36.htm)
The idea had occurred to me while trying to interpret one of my readings. I thought that the sun and the moon, displayed next to each other in the ideogram, could also remind of two eyes on a human face. Yet, for some reason, I hadn't realized that the analogy could be extended to the Li trigram!
Now this blog post of yours encouraged me to go back to that reading and keep trying... :blush:

PS I also agree with Sparhawk and Meng on that matter... :bows:
 

jilt

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Buzzarro, I remember clearly a few times that my eyes were hurting and I got hex 36. It surely is a resonating phenomena.
 

fkegan

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Buzzarro, I remember clearly a few times that my eyes were hurting and I got hex 36. It surely is a resonating phenomena.
Hi Bert,

Hex 36 would be good advice for an artist with hurting eyes whether trigram Li is seen as the sun having set or the eye needing to slip under a blanket rather than continue working.

Zen masters may hit you on the head to assist a transition
Hi Panther^2

I remember a Zen bishop getting all upset in class about the various sects of his religion arguing over hitting students with various sticks. Like arguing over which finger to point with in what manner when the students grew up to teach their own disciples, forgetting their Master was talking about admiring the beauty of the full moon and just used his finger to point in illustration.

so you need to prove me wrong and you right. You prepared for such a contest? I am.
Hi Elvis/CL

Binary, zero sum thinking never gets very far. Declaring everyone else wrong does not do a whit to prove anything or your views right. The secret is that we each get to have our own opinions which even back to the Medieval Scholastics (the source of University sciences) were accepted as a matter of personal taste and not suitable for formal disputation. It is only when you can accept others views as OK that you can expect to escape from assumptions only one view is allowed to be right, true, real or whatever to real discussion.

If you want to Explore Divination in terms of the topic of Inner Li as vision or a drawing of an eye or just the somewhat magical process of looking only at sources and results without considering what happened in the middle try this empirical verification:

Take a moment to reflect inwardly, use whatever method you wish to select a Yi Oracle. I suggest the simple way since getting hung up in techniques whether statistical or object based is distracting. Statistics were developed by Napoleon's generals as a means of applying voting techniques to choose the best representative number from a population of data. Divination is about unique answers to personal questions.

So try this contest if you can deal with anything other than your own assumptions:

Consider quietly, look within and allow two natural numbers 1-64 inclusive, either the same number twice or two different numbers to manifest and post them here.
Or in the alternative use whatever technique pleases you to determine your numbers and we can objectively discuss the results.

Statistics and probability can only take a large population of data and offer an answer whose experimental error gets ever smaller as the total data pool expands without limit. Says nothing about the validity of a single unique result. I have found humans are not capable of generating random results and magic is just a name for results obtained by unknown processing. Try something new.

Good Luck,

Frank
 

elvis

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Hi Elvis/CL

Binary, zero sum thinking never gets very far.
none of such is happening - recursion general to particular is happening with such represented using the bit dichotomy of 0/1. This allows for coverage of anti-symmetric (exclusive or), symmetric (equivalence), and asymmetric (implication) patterns moving from a mechanistic into an organic form.

For some reason you fail in understanding this or perhaps you refuse to since the consequences have an affect on your identity/perspective.

Declaring everyone else wrong does not do a whit to prove anything or your views right.
It helps in understanding that 1 + 1 = 2 and only 2.

The language element of the I Ching introduces is to a whole new perspective re understanding the properties and methods of hexagrams in that the results are as precise as 1 + 1 = 2. The 23-ness of 01 is always described by analogy to the generic qualities of 43. There is no dispute about this since the methodology we use as a species in meaning derivation determines these findings. It is then LOCAL context that adds-in the specifics that lead to a unique state.

For 3000+years we have been churning out prose about hexagrams without awareness of the above material. Now we can get the I Ching to tell us about itself. If that is an issue for you and others then the implication is one's vanity in thinking one understands the I Ching is blocking the acceptance that the I Ching knows more about itself than you do, or your teacher/guru.


The secret is that we each get to have our own opinions which even back to the Medieval Scholastics (the source of University sciences) were accepted as a matter of personal taste and not suitable for formal disputation. It is only when you can accept others views as OK that you can expect to escape from assumptions only one view is allowed to be right, true, real or whatever to real discussion.
We only have our own opinions due to NOT being aware of the language capabilities of the I Ching, all we have had is opinions due to there being no DEFINITE listing of meaning - NOW there is and it comes out of 3000+ years of science where suddenly all of the opinions of you/me/others become marginalised to the I Ching asserting its own descriptions rather than through you/me/others.

The VAGUENESS of the meanings covers the CLASS nature of the symbols where only local context, through the use of individual consciousness, grounds the class meaning with an instance meaning.

Thus to understand the nature of hex 30 we FIRST look at what the I CHING tells us and that covers the analogies mapped in the table covered in:

http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx101101.html

PRIOR to this focus there was very LITTLE present, we had to rely on the opinions of others to build-up our own models of what hex 30 covers. (the TRIGRAM of Li is not mappable using the language of eight trigrams - there is not enough resolution power to do so - we CAN cover primary emotions categories (such as fire<->acceptance issues) but little more. Extend the trigram into a hexagram and we move to the issues of guidance, direction setting, being 'in the gang' etc etc etc and then can use the I Ching language to flesh out details after details)

Take a moment to reflect inwardly, use whatever method you wish to select a Yi Oracle. I suggest the simple way since getting hung up in techniques whether statistical or object based is distracting. Statistics were developed by Napoleon's generals as a means of applying voting techniques to choose the best representative number from a population of data. Divination is about unique answers to personal questions.
... based on the ignorance/limitations of consciousness where its partials, mechanistic, delay, focus SERVES the holistic, organic, immediate focus of our species nature. The EIC focus now gives us access to finer details, to the holistic experience using our holistic capabilities of primary emotions.

Consider quietly, look within and allow two natural numbers 1-64 inclusive, either the same number twice or two different numbers to manifest and post them here.
Or in the alternative use whatever technique pleases you to determine your numbers and we can objectively discuss the results.
You obviously are not up-to-date on the brain's meaning creation dynamics where if the literal does not work then there is an immediate development of the figurative. As such I can take any two words out of the dictionary and if there is no immediate response my brain can, over time, elicit meaning through interpreting the words figuratively.

All that is happening is current unconscious thoughts etc influence the figurative dynamic and we project meaning into the representations.

In the EIC there is a difference here in that it comes with a pile of FIXED information that allows for validation of the assessments made - we can identify beginnings and endings even though the situation is 'in the middle' of its development.

IOW a statistical analysis of the meanings created by EIC or divination will differ in the PRECISION offered where aspects of the EIC not obvious until analysed. Thus divining a hexagram (s) to represent a moment tells you nothing about the past/future of that moment where such a telling serves to validate if the hexagram representation is correct or not.

IOW a statistical analysis of the EIC vs traditional divination will elicit responses confirming the 'best fit' capabilities, or more so the consistency in achieving such, in the EIC over the traditional divination.

THAT then tells us something about our intuition and primary emotions and the mediating dynamics of consciousness as it does about the lack in precision and understanding of the 10th century BC mindset when compared to what we can do now.

This does not 'negate' ancient interpretations of the I Ching, it allows for refinement of such still using ancient terms if you so wish. IOW the EIC focus is on METHODOLOGY where there is no NEED for magical/random methods to get consistent, testable, meanings from the IC.
 

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