...life can be translucent

Menu

Blog post: Inner li as vision

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
If kan is 'continuing':

* 4 - ignorance - 'continuing is stilled' (no growth yet)

* 6 - contending - 'continuing is creative' (?)

* 7 - army - 'continuing puts forth' (?)

* 29 - pit - 'continuing continues' (water)

* 40 - release - 'continuing starts' (you can start to flow in the time of release)

* 47 - confined - 'continuing enjoys' (nah lol)

* 59 - dispersing - 'continuing adapts' (constant adaptation means structure dissolves)

* 64 - not yet fording - 'continuing cleaves' (continuing to look carefully works better)

Okay, because of that last one especially, and also because others seem vague or a bit of a stretch, I'm thinking that each trigram has a cluster of meanings, and certain hexagrams seem better explained by using one only of the cluster of meanings. 47, for instance, makes more sense if kan is simply viewed as 'water' and tui is seen as 'lake', and so it means something like 'water confined in a lake'. If that's the case, then each trigram would sometimes have one of the 'action' meanings or one of the 'relating' meanings, but might alternately have a more literal meaning. And 7 makes more sense if it's seen as something like 'danger across the earth', which has nothing to do with continuing or water. :)
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
Mountain as 'stopping':

* 15 - humbling - 'stopping everywhere' ('mountain under earth' works better)

* 31 - influencing - 'stopped enjoyment' (pent up energy influences?)

* 33 - withdrawing - 'stopping creating' (makes sense)

* 39 - limping - 'stopping continuing' (makes sense)

* 52 - mountain stillness - 'double stopping' (makes sense)

* 53 - gradually advancing - 'stopping adapting' (I can see how stopping or adapting might be gradual)

* 56 - wayfarer - 'stopping cleaving' or 'stopping seeing' (?)

62 - small exceeding - 'stopping starting' (lol)

I don't know. Some make sense, some don't. We need more meanings for each trigram, and we also need to just accept that sometimes meanings were ascribed to hexagrams independently of the meanings of the two trigrams.
 

elvis

(deceased)
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
241
Reaction score
1
If the thunder trigram is 'starting':

No - too action specific. The generic form represented by the trigram is on sharing of time with another/others (BINDING) through expanding. The sense of expansion and the sense of time covers the sense of beginning as it does surprise, shock, enlightenment etc etc etc in five-phase the tie is to producing.

The contracting form represented by wind is where the sharing of time is combined with contraction and this covers the sense of anticipation, cultivation etc etc. In five-phase the tie is to re-producing.

Trigrams covering the generic quality of sharing of space (aka BONDING) are Lake (expansive and the focus on self-reflection literally and metaphorically in bottom, with the focus doubled to give us intensity in expression when in top) and Mountain (contractive and the focus on self-restraint, blocked literally and metaphorically in bottom, with the focus doubled to give us discernment when in top)

Thunder (enlightenment, shock, surprise, begin, re-begin etc - BINDING):

24 with/from enlightenment comes absolute trust in another/others (BIND/BLEND)
27 with/from enlightenment comes discernment (BIND/BOND)
03 with/from enlightenment comes control (BIND/BOUND)
40 with/from enlightenment comes becoming influential (BIND/BIND)
51 with/from enlightenment comes awareness (BIND/BIND)
21 with/from enlightenment comes ideology (application of law etc) (BIND/BOUND)
17 with/from enlightenment comes intensity in expression (BIND/BOND)
25 with/from enlightenment comes single-mindedness (BIND/BLEND)

To identify the reflection of each hexagram through each of the above just XOR them with each of the above.

Mountain covers contractive BONDING and so the sharing of space with another/others but focused within rather than without,

The bonding covers a relational space that brings out sensations that include blocking, discerning, self-restraining etc where such develops material internally (note this sequence includes, for example, hexagrams grounded in issues of loyalty (62,56) etc etc

Water covers a boundary focus on a boundary that is contractive, holding things IN and as such covers containment/control with the more generic focus on BOUNDING, a boundary differentiating A from B - here it contracts, in fire it expands. ANY sense will map to this generic quality.

Water in LOWER covers containment, water in UPPER covers containment doubled and so control.

Earth and Heaven map to the generic quality of BLENDING and with that come a sense of WHOLENESS and issues of emptying/filling, pull in, push out, devotion to self, devotion to another(s) etc

All of these REALLY generic qualities set the ground for all trigram associations, we create abstractions that tie blend, bond, bound, bind to some local context and that can include simple or complex sensory experience.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,424
Just came across this thread on 'Li in 30' http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=190 which i thought a great thread so thought i'd drop it in here. I can most relate to the image of the bird on the branch standing out against the background in wintertime. Brad said "we can't stand out without something to stand upon" which gave me another way of seeing dependency on context for clarity


lol as i wrote that a small message came up next to a red cross saying "Trojan is invisible" heh no background to be against eh
 

cesca

visitor
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
5
Yes, that's lovely.

Back to the girls: how about adapt to it, cleave to it, enjoy it?

Li would be 'cleave to' of course, which would include the idea of being faithful to.

So, 36 would be more a matter of 'cleaving to the darkness (remaining out of the light)' than a way of seeing something, for instance.

But if that's the case, then it's strange that 17 doesn't have li in it.

I'm not sure Li is just 'cleave to'. Li embraces the paradox of the flame both clinging to the log and leaving it. For me, there's something in that about non-attachment: like taking a perspective on something, but being able to change it as you move, or it does. On second thought, I guess really that's a higher order of 'being faithful to', in the same sense that 32Heng describes constancy, but is composed of the two most changeable trigrams. Faithfulness to (seeing/learning about) a person/thing AS IT IS: in process, in the ever-unfolding moment.

Then again, there's a similar paradoxical meaning around the word 'cleave': as well as meaning to adhere to, it also means to penetrate or pass through.

Re 17 -- seems like there are a LOT of possible variations on the theme of hanging in there!
 

cesca

visitor
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
5
I don't know. Some make sense, some don't. We need more meanings for each trigram, and we also need to just accept that sometimes meanings were ascribed to hexagrams independently of the meanings of the two trigrams.

Yeah, I agree. It's getting a little abstract for me. Or maybe it's that I didn't have any brothers and so am having a harder time figuring them out. :rofl:
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
I've just realized something. In trying to come up with variations on the sisters and brothers, I've been thinking of their gender in relation to a partner. But it's not like that, cuz it's Chinese, right? It's their characteristics in relation to the *parent' first of all, and then to each other and then to the partner. So sun is gently, adaptively penetrating in relation to the parents first of all. She's the serious one who has to adapt her behaviors to the parents, by contrast to the younger one, the charmer who just enjoys daddy as a way to get around him. So if the first one's serious and self-effacing and the youngest is the one who smiles and charms and 'funs' her way through things, does the middle one have characteristics of both somehow? Is she ambivalent? Is she faithful both to others and herself? Is that her brightness, and is it ambivalent?
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
The sons:

Let's do it.

Keep going.

Now just a minute.
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
I'm not sure Li is just 'cleave to'. Li embraces the paradox of the flame both clinging to the log and leaving it. For me, there's something in that about non-attachment: like taking a perspective on something, but being able to change it as you move, or it does. On second thought, I guess really that's a higher order of 'being faithful to', in the same sense that 32Heng describes constancy, but is composed of the two most changeable trigrams. Faithfulness to (seeing/learning about) a person/thing AS IT IS: in process, in the ever-unfolding moment.

Then again, there's a similar paradoxical meaning around the word 'cleave': as well as meaning to adhere to, it also means to penetrate or pass through.

Yeah, there's more to li than cleaving to. But I'd be wary of taking the alternate meanings of the English translation into account. It's the Chinese term that needs that attention.
 

cesca

visitor
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
5
I've just realized something. In trying to come up with variations on the sisters and brothers, I've been thinking of their gender in relation to a partner. But it's not like that, cuz it's Chinese, right? It's their characteristics in relation to the *parent' first of all, and then to each other and then to the partner. So sun is gently, adaptively penetrating in relation to the parents first of all. She's the serious one who has to adapt her behaviors to the parents, by contrast to the younger one, the charmer who just enjoys daddy as a way to get around him. So if the first one's serious and self-effacing and the youngest is the one who smiles and charms and 'funs' her way through things, does the middle one have characteristics of both somehow? Is she ambivalent? Is she faithful both to others and herself? Is that her brightness, and is it ambivalent?

Good thought re relating to the parents.
Well, the first image I was ever given of Hex10 was of the youngest daughter sitting on Daddy's knee and pulling his beard -- treading on the tiger's tail and only she can get away with it, the charmer! But Sun in the same position gives us Hex44, not quite so innocent; more influencing than influenced. And Li? She neither toils nor spins, but my bet is on her to take over the family business, or the town council.
 

cesca

visitor
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
5
The sons:

Let's do it.

Keep going.

Now just a minute.


24: new beginning ("Let's do it" - a tiggerish enthusiasm)

7: get organised (which you need to do if you're going to keep going)

15: respectful and deferent (but not necessarily very dynamic)

It's as if the Middle Daughter and Middle Son are like goldilock's porridge, 'just right' to actually accomplish some necessary practical task (like a battle in wartime or the relatively laid back administration of a village in peacetime).
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
cesca said:
And Li? She neither toils nor spins, but my bet is on her to take over the family business, or the town council.

But how does she do it? Is she the heart of relationship? Sun influences subtly and gently, tui charms and laughs her way through, and li emphasizes the relationship? Li's the one who says to both mom and dad 'we' when she relates to them? By working the relationship, she both clings and illuminates?

If so:

sun influences the relationship

li illuminates the relationship

tui enjoys the relationship

The sequence would then be: power - light - joy
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
24: new beginning ("Let's do it" - a tiggerish enthusiasm)

7: get organised (which you need to do if you're going to keep going)

15: respectful and deferent (but not necessarily very dynamic)

It's as if the Middle Daughter and Middle Son are like goldilock's porridge, 'just right' to actually accomplish some necessary practical task (like a battle in wartime or the relatively laid back administration of a village in peacetime).

If you look at the sons in terms of stages of energy and movement:

chen - impetus (You see this in 24, although it's resting at the moment cuz it's under earth; you see this in 16 with its enthusiasm cuz it's above earth; you see it in 40 with its release of energy; you see it in 3, even though the impetus is limited by ken; you see it 51, of course; you see it 34 with its goat energy; you even see it in 54, cuz the marrying maiden is a new beginning)

kan - Right now, this doesn't seem to me to be 'continuing' or 'flow' so much as 'risk-taking' or 'acting in danger'. Chen and ken are at the source and the destination, so they're not at risk, but kan is in the middle, out at sea, on its way, at the point of no return, distant from the security of either source or destination. Seen this way, risk is seen in: 3 (the risk involved in new beginnings), 4 (the risk involved in ignorance), 5 (the risks involved in waiting are imaged in some of the lines), 6 (the risk of contention is obvious), 7 (armies are risky business, any way you look at them), 8 (the risk of committing to a new center), 63 (the risk of any move away from the present involving a fall from the grace of everything being in its proper place), 64 (the risk of getting your tail wet through moving too soon), and so on.

ken - limiting (You see this in 15, with its limiting of excess and high places: mountain under earth; you see this in 56, in which the traveller is limited by being a stranger in a strange land; you see this in 21, where limits are applied to some obstacle or wrongdoing; but strangely, you don't see ken in 60, which is all about limits)

Seen this way, the middle son and daughter aren't so much 'just right' (cuz there's a time and a season for everything) as 'right in the middle of it' - li meets things face to face and kan plunges into things and takes the chance.

Whatcha think?
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
get it moving

take the chance

restrain it, limit it
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
The Chou I Ching of the King Wen Sequence NOT Western, 8^2 checkerboard or binary!

Hi Dobro,

Trigrams are the simplest complete image to form, there being 3 lines required for a complete narrative--beginning, middle, end. They get their family values since three lines of two types means there has to be two of one kind and the third of the other. Simple rules but they lead to such a wide array of possible associations! And those associations allow for such a wide range of imagery and commentary.

However, although it is possible to take any tangent or imagery or trigram notion and run off with it; as you have found they never work totally or completely at all. The analysis of the hexagrams from their component parts is part of Shang era technique. The notion that King Wen and the Chou I Ching hexagrams involve a quantum leap to a novel idea of the hexagrams as a whole as the unit of meaning (with line judgments, trigrams, line pairs and other components belonging to a later generation of work) is still too new to be accepted generally yet; and probably may remain so till next millennium.

But I prefer to use only the simplest of rules and the actual structure of line focus (Yang lines) within the gua matrix (trigram or hexagram) that does fully and completely explain the Chou I Ching and the King Wen Sequence.

The notion that since there are two kinds of lines, therefore the hexagrams must at core be a binary counter was a big step in Western math, but has little basis in Chinese thought. Even the pre-1100 BCE Yi arrangements involved a binary counter in a sine wave pattern in our terms. Looking to Chinese number and philosophy yields a simple, straight forward explanation in terms of figure/ground gestalt and sequence.

But then Yang and Yin in Chinese relational thought isn't about male and female but rather relationships of those who work publicly in the limelight and those who work through the context and background to control. The eldest daughter's role is to make the best political alliance by her marriage, for the family fortunes (hex 32). The youngest daughter is to be so attractive she gets a lovely offer to be a concubine to a rich man and thus save her family the expense of feeding her (hex 54). The middle daughter, Li doesn't work so well to explain hexagrams by family dynamics--other than hex 38 of sibling rivalry when the youngest and middle daughter aren't yet married.

Or as I brought up before on this thread, 'how does trigram li go from clinging, flame to seeing, eye except as an abstract graphic like the commentary upon hex 56.5?


Hi Elvis/LC,

If you quote my post you need to quote it ALL:
Claiming 1,2 is a standard evasion of the two number test since that clearly did not arise within your own mental process. Though the Flock of Dragons without a Head, the traditional Commentary upon Yi Oracle hex 1 >> 2 is an excellent Oracle comment upon your verbiage.

The point was about Divination Oracles which are interpreted most generally by the Commentary not the binary math equivalent. Following Jung's forward to Wilhelm, the Wilhelm Commentary works as an appropriate remark (and rebuke) of your remarks (and total approach). A torrent of words, like a flock of Dragons spewing but lacking any head (or mental process). Perhaps a harsh judgment but sufficient to show the point.

That is an example of the empirical verification of the Yi Oracle and your insistence upon misquotes,strange remarks and rolling smileys speaks for itself.

Hi Hilary,

What of E's style should I emulate as an example of how to make a polite reply? Or were you just a bit queasy about putting Divination to empirical verification?

Back to the SuperBowl,
Frank
 

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
1
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobro
If you're seeing li as the function of looking or seeing through the lens or filter of the outer trigram, then are you also seeing the other two sister trigrams (or the other seven trigrams, even) in a similar 'this is X looking through the filter of Y' way? If so, what's Tui, for instance?
.


I haven't got that far - but the 'looking through' metaphor only fits li. Dui, inside, often seems to receive and circulate (/'reflect on') the outer trigram.

From an intellectual perspective, Tui may be related, by the image of the mouth, to all the apertures of the body (including its etheric sheath which we experience through awareness of "feeling/sensation") through which we receive and internalize food, air and impressions. By processing this nourishment in an harmonious way and without self-indulgence, the Lake can become still. The achievement of stillness allows a new motion to a higher octave to begin: Thunder or electrical energy will appear if there is inner cultivation - which requires sublimation and reversal of the physiological process - of what has been ingested. If the Lake remains turbulent then what is taken in is generally used up - through sensual excess,identification and lack of self- awareness - and passes downward without any of it being directed upward.

Bradford's Buddhist idea of "Conditioned arising" in reference to hexagram 30, reminded me that the character li is also used by chinese buddhists to represent renunciation, one of the ten "perfections, " that is,ways to achieve detachment.

From another perspective, the trigrams and 64 hexagrams may be studied through energy art systems,such as ba gua . This work entails working directly with energy , moving it intentionally through the various ascending, descending and lateral connecting channels within the body. The 64 palm changes and "walking the circle" of ba gua can be practiced meditatively and/or physically. The aim
of the methods is to assist in feeling/sensing energy, increasing it and having it work efficiently .

Some modern scientists consider the entangled universe consists of energy and information; they do not consider the term "matter" practical in describing processes that occur on many scales.* Practitioners of the energy arts learn through their direct experience levels of energy and how they manifest. The words and symbols of the I Ching system, created by those with knowledge of the structure of the universe and man; and, how energy functions and can be generated and used, serve to provide philosophical and ethical guidance for humanity.
_______________________________________________________________
*"Basic physical concepts like space,time,energy , and matter are now imagined to be relative,complementary, and dependent in some ill-defined way on observation...We might call the present era the 'Age of Information.'" Dean Radin, Entangled Minds, pf.242.
 
Last edited:

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
However, although it is possible to take any tangent or imagery or trigram notion and run off with it; as you have found they never work totally or completely at all. The analysis of the hexagrams from their component parts is part of Shang era technique. The notion that King Wen and the Chou I Ching hexagrams involve a quantum leap to a novel idea of the hexagrams as a whole as the unit of meaning (with line judgments, trigrams, line pairs and other components belonging to a later generation of work) is still too new to be accepted generally yet; and probably may remain so till next millennium.

I don't know about a Chou quantum leap, but I've always thought that the hexagram meanings were derived from an associative technique that drew on many aspects of the structure and earlier meanings of the hexagram, an approach which defied systematic approaches. I think Bradford thinks along those lines as well. But I know that many people are really into trigram analysis as a way of understanding each hexagram better. So on this occasion, I decided to play along to see what might come up. In the past, every time I've searched for a systematic pattern of meaning built into the Yi, I've failed to find one that satisfied me. But I thought I came closer this time. :)

However, in the end, I think that despite the rigorous line structure of the hexagrams, the meanings attached to them are pretty much a random collection with so many variables that the oracle becomes really useful. The Yi's small enough to be manageable, but has enough variables (either 448 or 450, I think) to be able to cover a multitude of situations, variations and nuances.
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hi Dobro,

There are many opinions about the source and meaning of the 64 hexagrams. There are more about using the language of the text or the line patterns themselves. There are more about whether the Yi Oracle is a random system that folks give meaning in their own terms OR divination is a process of finding a unique answer within the I Ching framework for YOUR personal question.

Personally, I do not believe humans are capable of doing anything random. In science and medieval Scholastic theology random referred to anything outside their knowledge and beliefs. Replacing "random" with unknown quickly demonstrates how that is not a viable metaphysical explanation.

Most folks find their I Ching divination personally meaningful, in my experience even if they do not want to or have any explanation how it could have worked (from the earlier described 2 number technique as a parlor game).

I'm glad you feel you came closer in your trigram analysis than others you have tried. However, it did come to an end rather than completely work for you. Lienshan can use her Shang era trigram technique to explain all but a couple of the hexagrams of the KWS. Elvis apparently can shoehorn the hexagrams as binary counters and simple binary math to generate all he needs for his purposes.

Yet the mystery still eludes all these random or binary theories. All these attempts ultimately fail and almost is never enough for a system as elegant and sophisticated as the Chou I Ching. Hopefully your current effort has been insightful for you and perhaps sometime in the future you might be interested in other perspectives.

Good Luck and Best wishes,
Frank
 

elvis

(deceased)
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
241
Reaction score
1
"Elvis apparently can shoehorn the hexagrams as binary counters and simple binary math to generate all he needs for his purposes. ....Yet the mystery still eludes all these random or binary theories[/]"

There is no mystery other than that created by those impatient to deal with piecemeal development of meanings etc and so favouring the use of imaginative methodologies grounded in nothing but rhetoric and the 'magical' mindset of children. We now have to grow up and for many that is obviously difficult and so the maintaining of 10th century BC primitive mindsets into to the 21st century AD.

Frank's particular problem is the work he supposedly developed (some have suggested in past discussions more a case of plagiarism and so despite the truth/lie of such the taste stays behind - unfortunate for Frank and it means that all he writes is taken with a degree distrust and awareness of possible 'con' regardless of how hard he tries to promote his work) with some IC 'guru' that is grounded in traditional perspectives that are taken as if holistic perspectives when the fact is more so they are partial perspectives grounded in limited mindset and so not all inclusive of the IC.

All of the others on these IC lists that stick to traditional material maintain this focus on that material being THE material and there is no other - that is bit reflective of religious fundamentalism and in the IC itself such is captured as a PART of the whole. Neurologically this confusion covers toe religious bias of symmetric thinking that allows for instance/class, aspect/whole, confusions (aka metonymy at work).

The point with the IDM/EIC material is that there is no 'interpretation' required as at the CLASS level all is hard-coded, 24 XORed with any other hexagram will ALWAYS describe the beginnings etc of that class through analogy to some other hexagram. This is not subjective, this is OBJECTIVE and as precise as 1 + 1 = 2.

It is obvious that traditionalists 'need' some form of external force at work to aid them in their lives and yet the evidence of the species suggests either there is no such force OR we can in fact do BETTER than such a force where the force is unreliable, inconsistent, untestable (and so consider 'mad')

Thus contemporary perspectives, treated alone or included in traditional methods, offer a more precise, 'better deal' than the traditional material alone and include considerations of meaning derivation with some understanding of "the chaos game".

I have no issue with still using traditional material but I have issue with ignoring current research that aids in updating that material and in so doing offering better details re the I Ching in general and the use of the I Ching in consultations etc in particular. IOW promoting 10th century BC perspectives without incorporating 3000 years of neuroscience, anthropology, sociology, psychology, cognitive science etc is a form of con, the promotion of a lie for the sake of keeping/maintaining one's ego and the realisation one may have to confess to 'getting it wrong' or just being lazy and following previous interpretations like sheep, adding a bit here, deleting a bit there, but maintaining the 'lie' (and not caring about doing such, too focused on personal values and ignoring the 'facts of nature')

Thus Frank or Lise or Bradford etc interpretations can be used but the presented methodologies advanced to give better understanding of hexagrams etc by getting the details from the I Ching itself at the class level and THEN adding local context nuances to ground the class in some local context instance.

You cannot escape the EIC/IDM findings regarding meaning. period. You can try and much as you like to deride, deny, demonise, the EIC work, it is quality work covering material that none of the standard traditionalists have touched upon or been aware of - since their grounding has been in the I Ching as the I Ching and not the IC as one of many specialist filters of reality and so revealing the structures of all of those filters. The only interpreter I have seen on this list indicate a positive attitude to the EIC is LiSe but even then she still maintains her approach and ignores reconsideration of the I Ching interpretations given the EIC findings on getting the I Ching to describe itself by reference it itself.

Given the 600 million year development of the neuron there is NO MYSTERY in regard to the development of meaning and emergence of consciousness as an agent of mediation.

The problem with that is the training of most that has been riddled in tens of thousands of years focused on mystery where such has come from simple ignorance. The anthropomorphism common in primitive mindsets spans tens of thousands of years but the time has come when a lot of that material is 'bogus' when taken literally - as metaphor we can see the source of such material and improve in its perceptions - if one dares (and Frank obviously dares-not ;-) But then so would such as C Anthony where the building of a consulting business on primitive mindsets becomes a problem when new material comes along that shows that focus is bogus; hard to tell those who have passed through your training that their work is in fact grounded in a 'lie' - and a demonstratable one at that.

The problem with science is it WILL introduce perspectives that demonstrate ancient ones as past their best before date - and many will struggle in having to deal with such, wishing it will all go away - it wont and the science perspective could not care less; progress is progress, go with it or die/fade-away.

The EIC findings are hard, solid, facts of life in covering the derivation of classes of meanings and on into the development of languages and getting the IC to describe itself by reference to itself - no thought/interpretation required at the class level, only the instance level. This of course will upset MANY Egos but the objective element cares not. Deal with it. Grow up. Adapt. Adopt. Move on - or fade away (over weeks or years or generations, up to you)
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,148
Reaction score
3,418
fkegan said:
Hi Hilary,

What of E's style should I emulate as an example of how to make a polite reply? Or were you just a bit queasy about putting Divination to empirical verification?
Really not queasy about that, though I think that the technique of getting your subject to choose two numbers might work a lot less well when they know what those numbers stand for. I assume Chris has the hexagram numbers and names committed to memory by now. Even if he were filled with goodwill and willingness to go along with your experiment, what are the chances he could make anything approaching a 'random' selection? I couldn't.

You know I'm not asking you to emulate anyone, just to use your own insight and discretion.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
The only interpreter I have seen on this list indicate a positive attitude to the EIC is LiSe but even then she still maintains her approach and ignores reconsideration of the I Ching interpretations given the EIC findings on getting the I Ching to describe itself by reference it itself.

Hey, you hurt my feelings!!! :rofl: Sometimes I feel you are hailing from the 2300's AD but I like your theories. The XORing of hexagrams is something I find very useful and, as the years pass, I believe I understand your theories much better. I may disagree with the effort of finding a dichotomy between past exegesis and current mind research as I don't see a need for it other than supporting one in detriment of the other but I've learned to see past it or I'd be stuck. Further, the publication of your EIC helped me a lot, indeed. The prose is classic "Chris L" but the effort is good and I can hold it in my hand. :D
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
Hey, you hurt my feelings!!! :rofl: Sometimes I feel you are hailing from the 2300's AD but I like your theories. The XORing of hexagrams is something I find very useful and, as the years pass, I believe I understand your theories much better. I may disagree with the effort of finding a dichotomy between past exegesis and current mind research as I don't see a need for it other than supporting one in detriment of the other but I've learned to see past it or I'd be stuck. Further, the publication of your EIC helped me a lot, indeed. The prose is classic "Chris L" but the effort is good and I can hold it in my hand. :D


That's pretty much my view. Chris Lofting's work is immensely rich and valuable and will remain so. Don't agree with the neurological materialism but that doesn't matter, it has a definite place in amongst all the rest.

(Nice to know you can hold Chris' "effort" in your hand Luis. :D)

Topal
 
Last edited:

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
(Nice to know you can hold Chris' "effort" in your hand Luis. Conjures up an interesting image :D)

I think you are spending too much time in the seedy parts of France... :D
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
I think you are spending too much time in the seedy parts of France... :D

:rofl: - ahhh too late. I deleted it because the seedy ratio was a bit high...But you're right of course. Then again avant de casser ma pipe je voudrais me défouler un peu...

End of intermission...carry on

Topal
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Really not queasy about that, though I think that the technique of getting your subject to choose two numbers might work a lot less well when they know what those numbers stand for. I assume Chris has the hexagram numbers and names committed to memory by now. Even if he were filled with goodwill and willingness to go along with your experiment, what are the chances he could make anything approaching a 'random' selection? I couldn't.

You know I'm not asking you to emulate anyone, just to use your own insight and discretion.

Hi Hilary,

I have little idea what your last remark means. I do not know at all what your assumptions about me might be, though I do use my own insights and discretion without requiring admonishment about it which makes me wonder what is being implied.

I disagree that the two number technique requires ignorance of there being 64 hexagrams of the I Ching. It is first and foremost about being open to one's own inner space and allowing numbers to materialize in the mind's eye.

Whether it is an I Ching type or a science type trying to evade the Oracle within they equally fail at the attempt and their explanation of what they thought they were doing to be tricky generally tells more of their defense mechanism than explains the Oracle they provide. Chris' Oracle response of a Flock of Dragons without any head worked very well.

As did his later claim that 1+1= 2 rather than possibly 11 or in binary trigram form, 1+0+1 = 5 explained his fundamental assumptions underlying his perspective.

If you wish to reply with two natural numbers 1 to 64 either the same number twice or two different numbers I will show you how the Oracle is not random and not affected by prior hexagram familiarity...

Good Luck finding your two hexagram numbers...

Frank
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,148
Reaction score
3,418
Thing is, I'm completely incapable of thinking of a number between 1 and 64 without thinking of its hexagram 'personality' at the same time. So you're basically asking me to choose two hexagrams... is that the result you want, or are you looking for something to reveal what I don't already know I'm thinking about? (As if so, I think one of us had better pull out the coins/ stalks/ beads.)

As for insights/ discretion - don't worry. Just the usual request, and what pretty much everyone here does pretty much all the time - to do your best to keep debate from spiralling down into content-free flaming.
 

elvis

(deceased)
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
241
Reaction score
1
Hey, you hurt my feelings!!!

:rofl: I was not talking about the general, more so the particular persons who run sites focused on offering interpretations of the IC AS IF what they offered was the full spectrum of the IC where, obviously, given the IDM/EIC material what has been offered is PARTIAL not whole. Your support for the EIC material has been positive and that is appreciated but my point covers differences in 'pseudo-religious' vs 'scientific' perspectives.

In scientific realms if a new discovery is made and found to be of benefit it is immediately implemented as part of the process of making further discoveries etc whereas in religious or pseudo-religious contexts such is very much NOT the case. The problem of course is in the manner in which the original texts are held to be 'sacred' and so the intellect etc of the originators considered to be 'superior' etc., and any further finding cannot possibly be true! (common theme is the rigidity of the perspectives where the original texts are taken literally rather than as metaphors and so questions about what is BEHIND the texts are not considered or prohibited and even considered 'evil' (e.g. prohibitions on asking questions of any such 'authority' about background etc - in fundamentalism one does not question the 'voice of the lord in one's head'!) From psychological, socio-economic, political, anthropological, linguistic, neurological, cognitive perspectives this perspective is obviously false.

GIVEN the material coming out of the EIC it is obvious that the 'ancients' were limited in their perspectives, lacked depth in their understandings when compared to what is now possible (their prose alone shows the primitive trait of tying identity with local context through history/legend/myth and so inability to develop their full consciousness as universals - Marshall's focus on "The Mandate" brings out the need for making local analogies/metaphors to try and communicate the meanings they felt)

As 21st century AD conscious beings our consciousness is well developed in the form of each of us being able to pack our bags and move to totally different contexts and thrive in such - no dependencies on previous contexts (although the less developed consciousness can 'cling' to those contexts and in doing so prevent/deny the opportunities to learn from the new context - gets into the issues of 'ghetto' formations and other socio-economic issues that can come from limited education where it is all about education-for-socialisation rather than education-for-understanding )
 

elvis

(deceased)
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
241
Reaction score
1
Thing is, I'm completely incapable of thinking of a number between 1 and 64 without thinking of its hexagram 'personality' at the same time. .

Frank's problem is he is not focused on the scope of the EIC material that runs into the IDM focus and so derivation of meaning in general. For example, one can use the EIC methodology to derive the personas of people with better precision than current specialist tools such as the MBTI or HBDI or Keirsey checker etc etc As such he has missed the nature of the methodology that has nothing to do with the I Ching but with how we use emotional assessments in our lives.

The grounding is in recursion of dichotomies such that we can derive a hexagram for ANY assessment and that includes personality.

Frank's 'two number' exercise is obviously something derived from understanding the I Ching filter and making it unconscious and that is fine (even if, as you point out, an issue if one knows the IC well), BUT it will not give the precision value that comes with the EIC usage in that we are assessing external events without focusing specificially on IC hexagrams, those we create from material seemingly not related.

Included in that precision value is the EIC language element that allows us to validate assessments by identifying properties NOT presented in traditional IC material and that includes the 'beginnings' of situations and so cause-effect dynamics that bring out the seconds/minutes/hours/weeks/months BEFORE the assessment where such acts as feedback to support the assessment.
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Thing is, I'm completely incapable of thinking of a number between 1 and 64 without thinking of its hexagram 'personality' at the same time. So you're basically asking me to choose two hexagrams... is that the result you want, or are you looking for something to reveal what I don't already know I'm thinking about? (As if so, I think one of us had better pull out the coins/ stalks/ beads.)


Hi Hilary,

It isn't at all a matter of whether you know the numbers themselves (essence of the KWS) or the hexagram personalities from whatever context. It is a matter of taking a moment to explore the inner space within and allow an image to form by itself. If you see that image as an Oracle hexagram with or without moving lines or numbers makes no difference. Or to respond most exactly to your statement, the idea is not to think about the process at all, rather to open inner mental space and watch the Oracle process at work independent of any coins or sticks or hexagram personalities.

Let me give you an example. One person saw two numbers form in their mind and then watched as two other numbers appeared and pushed the first two out of their way. There are mediated and immediate access to divination. Looking inward allows each and all to participate in the divination process without the imposition of either their preconceptions of what hexagrams mean or how the falling coins or separating yarrow bundles 'cause' the Oracle.

The 2 numbers within technique is a simple form of meditation. If it sounds peculiar then it would be useful not to think so much about it, but just relax, be comfortable, close your eyes and listen for your breathing and then your heart beat and then just notice what appears within--- either numbers or lines or oracle hexagrams....
When you have your two numbers or Oracle you will know it and will be able to also describe the process of watching divination materialize before your inner eyes...


And...
As for insights/ discretion - don't worry. Just the usual request, and what pretty much everyone here does pretty much all the time - to do your best to keep debate from spiralling down into content-free flaming.

This part eludes me totally. Sort of reminds me of decades ago when I was giving a talk at a conference, with my stopwatch out on the podium, keeping aware of the exact designated time to be sure I filled almost all of my allotted time and with a bit of quiet space at the end. As I was about to speak my last sentence of 10 seconds in the last 20 seconds of my time--the moderator interrupted me to remind me not to go long over the time limit.

Normally I would expect that such moderator remarks would only appear when required rather than appearing out of the ether and completely out of context. But nowadays I just note these breaches of faith so we all can learn from them.

How could 'debate' spiral down into content-free flaming on my part? Folks react strangely to my remarks not because they are attacks but because they elicit their inner intensity to pour forth in response to my objective, content-filled remarks that they feel as though they are looking into a mirror.

Frank
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top