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Can the Yi speak of the future?

elizabeth

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Today I asked the Yi if I follow its recent advice to me (to go slow and steady, be small and meek, go inside myself and work on my inner strengths, proactive internally but only reactive externally)?if I do this, will I have a romantic future with the man I think of now. It replied:
58.1.2 --> 45.

Can someone confirm that this is not a positive comment, it does NOT mean "yes"?
I read 58 is quiet self contented joy. I'm trying to tell myself that our separation now is temporary and that he will come round in the new year, in 2006. Would this toss confirm it? Also 45 suggests working together harmoniously? he phones rarely now but I asked this about the long haul. In other words, if I do the inner work needed, will this be my reward?

I am having a hard time not contacting this person. I asked "should I suggest we meet before Dec. 15?": 6,Conflict, *all lines changing* !! --> Darkening of the Light. I take that to mean not to suggest meeting him under any circumstances. Right?

I asked if he phones, can I hint I miss him (I have gotten Preponderance of the Meek/Small often lately and I take that to mean something close to disappearing, not initiating)?
It told me: 50.1.6 the cauldron, changing to 34 Power of the Great.

Can I phone just to see how he is? it gave me 55.3.4 to 24 unchanging.

Will I see him before my departure? (i will be out of the country for 2 weeks, but haven't seen him in 2 months and want to before the year ends).
Result: 40.2.3 Deliverance to 62 unchanging. Preponderance of the small.

Can someone confirm my interpretations or shed light on these? I seek hope that if I "persevere" on this difficult path of separation, that things will right themselves in the New Year --specifically with him.
 

matt

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Elizabeth, I really feel for your situation, you are going through a tough time at the moment. Its never easy parting with something so dear to the heart, and all of your thoughts about inner soul-searching show you have a natural strength to grow as a person. I have found myself in a similiar situation before, not knowing which way to turn, hesitant of the 'correct' path to follow. It can feel like you are swimming against the current in a huge ocean of emotion.

The I Ching can provide such clarity in our lives, but only when our minds are uncluttered of thoughts. Trying to establish direction through using the I Ching when we are full of doubt and uncertainty can often serve to confuse us even more. I admire that you feel you should work on your own inner world for the time being, it is a truly great gift when we can journey inside ourselves, and nourish our weakness by using our strengths. You should do this for you though, not for anyone else. The only reward you are likely to receive for your own inner work is the reward of knowing yourself better. And when we know ourselves better, we can give to others more of ourselves, we can shares our gifts of understanding with them making our connection deeper to the world around us. So, do this for you, without any thought of reward, and then you may find what you need.

Elizabeth, the beauty of life comes in many forms - to be brave when you want to fold, to say little when you want to say much, to trust when your heart is sad, and to let go when you want to hold on dearly. If your mind cannot decide what to do in your situation, and if the I Ching only furthers your confusion, then do the best possible thing any can do in this world - follow your heart. If you FEEL you want to call him, then call him. Whats the worst that can happen? He will tell you he doesnt want to meet up with you, but then you will know. If you are afraid to contact him, then do it, do the things you are afraid of, these things are the way of the heart, to be brave in the face of adversity.

My best wishes to you, remember, try not to analyse your situation anymore, just do what FEELS good for you, then whether you meet triumph or disaster, you can be content that you followed your feelings
happy.gif
 

elizabeth

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Matt,
Thanks for your reply. I dont know that doing what feels good is right, because before, I would call if i felt like it, or agree to meet up at the last minute if I was free. The results were always positive...but some say that I was too available and hence his disappearance. Others say its not due to that at all.

Now, after reading about relationships, I think I did the wrong thing, that I should have done the opposite. Acting on what we feel isnt always correct so now I'm trying to do the opposite: I want to call, so I dont. I want to tell him how i feel, but I'm silent. I want to suggest we meet, but I dont.

In sum, I dont trust my feelings, because they *may have* (may have, I am not sure) caused him to disappear. So I'm looking for the I ching to tell me what is correct behavior now. I cant afford to take any risks... :-(
 
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bruce

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(echoes Matt's well said thoughts)

It's good to ponder and introspect, but it's also best to let your truth be known to the one you're inquiring about. After all, if you're looking at this guy as a serious potential partner, openness and honesty is the only basis for exchange. There's nothing in these readings that I can tell which says to withhold your true feelings from him. Everything points to open exchange.

Btw, consider 62 as meaning 'working on details', on the little things. It does not always suggest being meek or introverted.
 

elizabeth

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I had inquired of this man on Sept. 6 if we were friends or more. In my book, the question itself presents my interest. (That and the stupid mini speech that spontaneously spilled out of my mouth about how love is a risk, ugh).

He has phoned about once per week since then but not once asked to see me.I know it sounds like i'm stupid...but I have feelings for him and keep thinking/hoping. I phoned him last week to wish him a happy birthday. I haven't heard back...

So I assume withholding feelings at this time is best. But how does 62, working on details, fit in? Maybe working on the friendship? phoning him once in a while? (before the bday call i have not been contacting him myself, except to return contacts from him..i've been treading verrry cautiously). I'm already trying to work on myself, find myself without him in my life (against my heart's desire), but i fear my correct steps are for naught. I would still love to unlock the mystery in these readings.
 

magdalena

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Hello Elizabeth, I don't often comment on postings as Im relatively new to I Ching but I thought I will make an exception in your case as I can see similarities in your behaviour now and in mine in the past.

I was in your situation some time ago and I remember feeling quite insecure and unable to trust my own judgement. When someone you love or are fond of distances himself from you it can be really frustrating and upsetting. I remember thinking so much about it that at the end I became a nervous wreck. The more insecure I became the more I consulted the Yi, the more confusing the hexagrams became.

I guess your advice here really is to step back and look at yourself again. Are you pushing too hard for something that isn't right anyway? I believe that if you meet the right person you should be able to be yourself and not be afraid of that. If I were you I would forget about anyone else for the time being, if it is right it will come back to you anyway, and build up your "inner strength" again whatever this means to you. To me it was for example making sure I looked and felt good so I started going to the gym, changed my diet, lost weight, started meditating etc. This is just an example, it could be something completely different but just focus on yourself for a while and get your confidence and inner calm back. Whatever is meant to come will come. Trying to control it might only delay it happening.

Good luck!
 

millie

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elizabeth, i prmise you there is nothing you did wrong, or will do right, that will either bring this man to you or keep him away from you. it isn't about you. plain and simple. two people come together because they come together. it either works, or it doesn't work. i know you want to believe you can have more control over things than that, but you can't. none of us can.

let go. relax. BE WHO YOU ARE. this is what matt means when he says to follow what you feel. he means you should follow what you are. when you do this, really do this, the man meant for you will appear. he can't appear as long as you are constantly trying to be someone else. being someone else happens when you "do the opposite" of what you want, and you don't call when you want to, or you believe that you have the kind of magical powers that if you did or said the right thing that you could make someone feel something for you that they do not, or behave a way that they are not. you ignore other people's free will.
 
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rosada

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Frequently people will say, "I got hexagram number such and so ane I took it to mean ...." I suggest it would be helpful if the poster would actually write out the words of the translation they are working with. Writing out the meanings of the change lines here would not only provide those of us reading the posting with the translation the seeker is working with, but also if a poster is making referances to multiple hexagrams and change lines, they may find readers more willing to engage if the poster has provided the info here and isn't requiring the reader to look the lines up.

And of course something magical happens when you write the words, they get transfered into 10,000 other places in your brain and understanding seems to be enhanced.

Reading it out loud can also improve comprehension.
 
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rosada

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People might complain, "But it takes so long to write the whole change line out!" This is true, but the advantage to this bit of torture is you are actually saying to your unconcious, "Explain this hexagram to me or I will force us to sit here while I write it out word for word. " With that threat in mind it's amazing how often the obscure text will suddenly become clear.
 

jte

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"?if I do this, will I have a romantic future with the man I think of now. It replied:
58.1.2 --> 45.

Can someone confirm that this is not a positive comment, it does NOT mean "yes"? "

What do those lines actually show? Isn't it a picture of quiet contentment, the kind that isn't chasing after something outside, but is fulfilling and fulfilled in and of itself. Isn't that more peaceful and ultimately more rewarding than what you're going through?

Both lines have an auspice of good fortune - but you seem to be seeking a *specific* outcome. From what I've seen, those concluding auspices are rarely things we get to actually choose. (After all, we don't get to pick what bad luck happens to us, either.) Isn't the desire for that specific outcome actually preventing you from reaching the state where good fortune (of some kind) will come to you of it's own accord?

You asked "If I do this..." - Are you doing it?

- Jeff
 

elizabeth

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Hello,
Wow, I am very grateful for all of the replies here. I will try to address each post. First of all, Rosada and others, my apologies for not including the line translations. It isn't a problem for me to type them out, and I have time to do so, I just wasnt aware that it was needed for others to help me. But duly noted and I promise to include those. In fact I will try to go back and post them.

Magdalena -- your point about trying to control this possibly delaying it... is duly noted. I'm trying to let go and see what (or who) comes (back) to me. Its hard but i'm trying.

Millie - thanks. you clarified Matt's comments for me, I was taking them maybe too literally the first time around. I have somewhat lost faith in myself that I no longer trust my instincts (since past actions didnt bring desired results...i must have acted incorrectly). I'll try to listen inside and be "me"... and see what happens.

Jeff - whoa. Your comment hit me like a dart. You're right -- no, to be honest, i haven't been doing it. It is hard to let go of the desire of that outcome that I think/wish should happen... and you're right, that nothing will come if i keep focusing on it. I have to let go. I too had read 58.1.2 as quiet contentment, and I suppose the Yi's answer is still elusive: meaning if i "do this", i will be quietly contented..but it doenst mean this man in question will be part of that peaceful situation necessarily (clever Yi!)

I have two connected struggles here: one is how do i act, based on the fact I have feelings for this person (i want to call, see him etc) and the fact the feelings arent being returned? (should not call, will feel humiliated). Second, the fact we do have or had a friendship, i figure I can phone on that basis...but again, I'm trying to rid myself of feelings for him, so that complicates the issue as well. (and part of me worries a call will appear as over interest to him, etc) The end result: stagnation in my actions and inner progress.
 

millie

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"the fact the feelings aren't being returned."

you already have "over interest" for him whether you call or don't call. you can either keep the feelings to yourself, as you quietly work to release them and the rejection, or you can share them with him and risk feeling humiliated together with feeling the rejection. the choice is yours.

why do you need to make someone who isn't interested in you be interested? why waste time with someone who isn't interested? why do you find "not interested" attractive?

it's my sense your questions aren't about the guy. they are all about your disconnection from yourself, and your desperate need to fill the void. what you haven't realized yet is that you are right there waiting for yourself. that's the only way to fill the hole. it will never, ever, be filled by someone outside of you. especially not by someone you've had to convince, manipulate, strategize, or encourage to be interested in you.

i will say it again: his interest, or lack of interest, is in no way influenced by specific things you do or say. it's about overall chemistry and this you do not and cannot control. from out here it sounds like you are trying to try-on different characters to see which one gives you the better, more desirable results. this makes me sad. it also shows how disconnected from yourself you are. all you need to be, really and true, is you. not for the sake of seeing how it goes, but for the sake of being you because in the end it's all you can be anyway.

i really want to encourage you to seek out a women's development group of some kind. establish good, healthy relationships with women, which in turn will help you to development a better relationshp with yourself, and ultimately a good love relationship.
 

luz

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Elizabeth,

IMO, the reason why you struggle so much with the "to call or not to call" question is that you still harbor some hope. If you knew for sure, for sure, that he doesn't have and can not possibly ever have feelings for you, you would probably not think of calling and it would probably be easier to move on, don't you think?

I think this is the main reason most people cling to hopeless relationships, there is always this internal doubt that if only.. if only! you could do this or say that and then their heart would open up as if by magic. Usually, this is not the case. Usually the signs are all there and everyone can see them except for those of us involved, clinging stubbornly to the dark. But it can happen, of course.

Because of this, though, I think that it will be best if you do call him. Bite the bullet. Risk humilliation by following your heart. If it doesn't work out, at least you will then find more peace in knowing that, for sure, this was a lost cause and that you did all you could do.

Wishing you the best.
 
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bruce

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"Isn't the desire for that specific outcome actually preventing you from reaching the state where good fortune (of some kind) will come to you of it's own accord?"

Poignant statement, Jeff. And too far reaching for the mediocre to conceive. To accept that as a truism would require belief in a Supreme plan for your life, or at least a consistent tugging in a particular direction; which can not ever be known fully, consciously.

So then, where is our desire for a specific outcome to reside? Or are we to simply live each moment without ambition, moving toward our future with no destination? Is our desire an ally or some fictitious hero figure?
 

elizabeth

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I have a complete analysis of 50.1.6 to 34 (and partly understand that toss better now) but it seems rather pointless, perhaps, to post that now.

Lightangel is correct, if i didnt think there was something more possible between us, I wouldnt be thinking about this or consulting the Yi on how to proceed, or if i can "proceed". The words he had said to me were "I haven't decided yet". But since that proclamation, his actions spell decision, as difficult as that is to swallow. I dont feel comfortable asking him anything in a phonecall though due to a fear of how i will appear (desperate/needy/clueless?)
It would be a huge enough step to simply phone and chat, but a normal talk would give me more hope too.

As Millie pointed out, I would rather keep the feelings to myself and continue working on releasing them rather than humiliating myself with any declaration or question to him at this point.

[Millie - i like the idea of a women's group. I'm actually living abroad though, in a foreign country where English is not much spoken. (I'm originally from the USA). I dont think that women's groups exist here (!!) but i will look and see what i can find.]

Bruce - I share your thoughts. In every area of my life, I have always set and accomplished goals. If i want something, I go after it. In nearly all cases I've succeeded based on willpower, self-discipline and ambition. Love/relationships are the one area that willpower, desire and determination mean nothing if the other person doesnt feel *exactly* the same way. We have no control. This is why I've turned to I ching: to try to understand the parts I can't control, so i can act better, and hopefully succeed better. It isnt that i want to manipulate someone else: it is that I blame myself for failures and think that if i had acted differently, the outcome may have been different and better in the long run.

While I believe in Fate and a supreme being and a larger plan... i have a nearly impossible time sitting and "waiting" for things to happen to me. I think this thread pretty much supports that :p side of me. I would not know how to live life without ambition, desire, plans. I do however now, in my "old age" see desire generally as an enemy, not an ally, whenever it concerns anything but work/finance/real estate and other concrete but non-personal goals or activities. Desire in the realm of personal relationships and friendships is a recipe for disaster, I now believe.

I apologize that this thread has gotten off the topic of the hexagrams and their meanings, as it wasnt my intention -- though in return I've gotten some very warm, welcome, well-intended advice from everyone, and I cant thank you all enough for that.
 
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bruce

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Elizabeth,

Oh, I don't think you or anyone here has gone off track, at all. Your original question was: "Can the Yi speak of the future?" That has everything to do with either sitting and waiting, or making things happen. Or maybe both, each at its own productive time?

Like yourself, I have a hard time sitting and waiting, but I've also learned that it is a skill that assertive people do need to learn and develop. The yin to the yang, so to speak.

Funny example of this came from my son through email this morning. He's a budding guitar player and we talk quite a bit about such things. Here's a comment he made:

"Having problems with my ?slow rhythm? lately. I feel like Steve Martin in ?the Jerk? when he's snapping his fingers to the blues music.. totally out of sync."

Here's my advise to him:

"LOL, that's a funny image. Too much Yang, maybe (trying too hard, applying force, etc). Yin is more open and sensual than it is mind or will driven. It "allows" more than "makes" things happen. I have that same tendency when I play, and so I remind myself to relax and just go with it. That's when I typically play at my best."

No matter whether it's about romance or playing music: the balancing of these same two principles is the same.
 

elizabeth

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Bruce,

Just came from watching a ballet and I too was thinking: this is the way it should be. the guy pursues the girl, the girl responds (or doesnt).

Your reminder to your son struck a chord w/me too. I suppose the trouble is in my experience, if i am being myself, my own Yin - reserved, quiet, observing, waiting but not acting or pursuing... NOTHING HAPPENS. And out of frustration... I end up acting. :-S

Somehow this has gotten twisted up in my life and i dont LIKE it that way. I'm actually not aggressive by nature; i'm an introvert, shy, quiet. I'm driven, motivated and intelligent...but not so intelligent in matters of the heart apparently!!
 
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bruce

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Yey! Sometimes you have to kick against something until you know what you're for!

and then, sometimes not...

I wonder though, if "nothing' is really happening while you quietly persevere. I know for me it sometimes feels like nothing is happening, but then I wake up one day somehow different, and not yet knowing how this new clarity or strength happened. I think that's just the way it is, where character growing is concerned. It may not fit into some of the other areas in our life we'd like to see prosper, but then what right do we have to complain about it, or to feel in any way remorseful over it? Everything is a compromise.
 
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ktb123

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Elizabeth,

Think of this forum as your women's group!!! Most of us that tune in are or have experienced the same sort of loss, and I am finding that the loss is ourselves, not someone else.

I am finding that, as I work through the pain, etc, of my own experiences, that my fantasies (read ego) now are more of him coming back to me, and me setting conditions, etc.. My fantasy is me rejecting him unless he can meet these conditions!!!! I have been holding onto an idea, which is fine, but he was just a symbol, not really what I wanted. If it were him that I really wanted, then he would have never have left. If I wished for him to "change", then how could he symbolize that idea?

Does this make any sense to you? I might be rambling, but it was an epiphany of sorts for me. I was actually fighting "letting go" and I caught myself doing it.

I asked today "What is at the core of my "holding on"?

The answer: 9.4<1

I read this as "I've created a mountain out of a molehill" in a way.

Be true
the bleeding stops
no harm is done
"A mind is no big thing to change, with a twinkle here, a discharge there, a wider horizon perceived or a little time to heal."
 

jte

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"...To accept that as a truism would require belief in a Supreme plan for your life, or at least a consistent tugging in a particular direction..."

I can see why someone could see it that way. However, it might also be other things, such as:
- The normal (usual, statistically probable) result of the condition described in the line "all other things being equal".
- The advice of a higher intelligence that is aware of what will happen (*in the particular case*) if the advice is followed. (This doesn't *necessarily* entail a higher plan/purpose, although that could be part of it.)

There are probably other possibilities as well...

"So then, where is our desire for a specific outcome to reside? Or are we to simply live each moment without ambition, moving toward our future with no destination? "

Why the generalization here? A specific desire can often be appropriate, but isn't in this particular case... If the other person was actually responding, Elizabeth's interest in him would be a positive not a negative, no? (And she might have asked Yi about their relationship, but circumstances and question would be different - and so, we must assume ;-), would the answer.)

Just tonight, I asked Yi about a topic near and dear to my heart and indeed with a specific intent and outcome in mind... The advice was 10.4. So, in this case I'll follow it in order to (safely) achieve the desired result.


"Is our desire an ally or some fictitious hero figure? ... Or perhaps some fictitious hero figure ally?"

Guess that all depends on how someone views desire, no? For me, the personification doesn't give me much insight, but for others, who knows...

-----------

"I apologize that this thread has gotten off the topic of the hexagrams and their meanings..."

No need to apologize dear, this helps us learn more... I think a lot of folks learned a lot from this thread and people's many comments...

- Jeff




-
 
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bruce

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Jeff,

Yas got mes pondering...

If someone didn't believe in a universal intelligence or godly tugging, who or what would they be letting go to, in order to enjoy a better outcome by letting go?

Know what I mean? I was saying that in order to let go and let God (in so many words), one would need to perceive or believe in God, or universal intelligence, or at least a consistant tugging in that direction.
 

yellowknife

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or one would need to believe in the wisdom of a Self that wants and needs to actualize?
 

elizabeth

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Bruce - you're right. An agnostic would have to believe in Self Improvement at the bare minimum. Otherwise belief in a Higher Being or religion would be the alternatives.

Wolverine, good point. But belief and actualization seem to me to be separated by a large uncrossable chasm.
++

I have spent the past year living abroad in a (Very) foreign country, pursuing one of my dreams. Although the dream has realized itself (although not to the extent I would like), i find I'm not 100% fulfilled by it. No job can replace the fulfillment i seek from a loving relationship, and in pursuing this dream I have been trying to distract myself from the need FOR a loving relationship. I had neither dream nor relationship before I left my home country and now I have one of the two. I partly told myself before this move that if I didnt find a relationship, at least this is the only way I can pursue my dream, so in any event something will come out of it. Now...I find that having a life partner is a goal. And it is an awful goal to have. I think it is the worst goal any human can have. (goal, desire, wish, dream, whatever)

I *know* that to find a relationship outside, one first has to have a loving relationship with oneself. In some ways I think i do, but feel beaten down by experience. That "beaten down"ness has taken a toll on my self believe and self esteem/worth, and I'm trying to get it back, but not sure how to go about it. When I met this gentleman, it was the first time -- ever in my life -- that I thought I had found a match for me. He was respectful and not pushy and in many ways quite like me. Things progressed slowly until one moment that they seemed to speed up and then stop that same day. And ever since things have not been the same. Aside from hours spent wondering and chastising myself for "what if i had acted differently in that one moment", I have a hard time letting go of what I thought I had: a soul mate and life partner. THis combined with being alone in a foreign country is a lot to bear right now.

That is, I assume that the core problem is my faith in myself and self worth. But I dont know how. People have said to do what makes you happy. Focus on yourself. Well -- honestly, there isn't a whole lot that fals into that category...I'm pursuing my dream already, and that isn't enough. When I think of happiness I think of this person and I have to disassociate the two items. I miss him and wonder why he does not miss me. Often I think I'm the only person on the planet with a soul, a heart, and deep feelings. And I wonder why this man isn't hurting as I am.
 

elizabeth

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Side note: Out of curiousity, i just asked the Yi to "tell me something about this man". It gave me 51. Arousing Thunder/Shock, twice. Does this mean I would be shocked if i knew the truth? Or does it mean he is in shock, being shaken up? (ha i doubt it) Or does it mean despite appearances, there is thunder inside him? Or, it is an embodiment of what he does to me: upsetting *my* inner peace? I had asked "tell me" not "show me", so I assume this is a comment about him not an image of him.
 

elizabeth

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And I asked it "please show me his heart." It gave me 34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great. Twice. Unchanging.

"The hexagram points to a time when inner worth mounts with great force and comes to power. But its strength has already passed beyond the median line, hence there is danger that one may rely entirely on one's own power and forget to ask what is right. ***There is danger too that, being intent on movement, we may not wait for the right time.*** Therefore the added statement that perseverance furthers. For that is truly great power which does not degenerate into mere force but remains inwardly united with the fundamental principles of right and of justice. When we understand this point--namely, that greatness and justice must be indissolubly united--we understand the true meaning of all that happens in heaven and on earth."

I asterisked the part that stood out to me. That perhaps he is acting without reflection now...
 
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bruce

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Elizabeth,

Are you familiar with LiSe's site? If not, you may find this interesting.

34
 
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bruce

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Elizabeth,

I hear and feel what you?re saying. I sometimes feel very similar as you?ve described. It?s got to be tough being a stranger in a strange land; when what appears as love comes to you, and then steals back into the night like some sort of cruel dream. But don?t you think you?re being just a little hard on yourself? Nothing says any of this is necessarily a fault of yours. The contrary might be true. Many great people experience loneliness, and there?s likely a reason the two often go together.
 
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bruce

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Wolverine,

That's an interesting (and an inevitable) thought: Self actualization. But isn't Self, as it's used in this sense, synonymous with God, as in Higher Self? If not, then I'll ask you the same question I put to Jeff: Who or what would they be letting go to, in order to enjoy a better outcome by letting go? Even when using 61 - Inner Truth, as a model, the truth that is within, if it is indeed truth, will be the same (universal) truth that lives in all things. That?s a truth with no name, but its affiliation still connects to universal consciousness, or God. No?
 

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