Can the Yi speak of the future?

[elizabeth]

Matt ? I see your point. ANd I can't tell you how desperately I want to follow that track, and simply phone this guy and suggest hanging out. Live the day as if it were my last, so to speak.

But unfortunately, I am not sure it applies completely in my situation. That is, this isn?t a relationship of love where the love faded. It was something else that could have been love, that had the potential to develop, and my infamous question seemed to have put a halt to the whole thing. Whatever we have, or had, this man has decided for reasons of his own that it is not love & that he doesn?t want to pursue me any more. ouch. Insofar as I have feelings for him that dont seem to be reciprocated, me running forward will probably bring only more "misfortune", as I'm trying to heal (and its not working very fast!)

But? let?s walk through both possibilities anyway. One is that I do not phone this man. I phoned him last 11 days ago on his birthday. Silence on his end since then. What can we conclude from that? We can conclude: I am not on his mind, I?m not important to him, he isn?t thinking about me and doesn?t miss talking to me. Based on his actions we can conclude this. He has been online on a dating site since then> he is looking for other girls. He isn?t thinking about me or wondering how I?m feeling.

I used to think ?oh he is afraid to phone me, he is too busy.? But I know that love conquers both fear and scheduling? Heck even friends take time to phone!

If I phone (as I did 11 days ago)?I open the communication waves. I again make the first step. He may be polite; probably he will be. We hang up, and (one option) he wont phone again. Or he might make an overture to meeting me without a specific time or date? or he would ask to see me. In any case, I would feel that if I hadn?t made the effort, I wouldn?t be seeing him and to me that removes some of the meaning from the meeting. I will feel that I?m doing all the work in this ?friendship?, especially if it is a one-off and he doesnt then toss the ball back to me with equal input. He may assume, if I phone, that contact from me is just another sign that I still have feelings for him. (in case it wasn?t clear, I asked this man if we were friends or more on Sept 6 and he said probably just friends, he wasn?t sure?and then said in order to have a relationship there had to be love (with a capital ?L?) and emotional attachment or else ?the girl ends up getting hurt?. He has not once asked to see me after that day. Before it, we were regularly seeing each other (apparently, only as friends but who knew?). If I phone, he thinks I?m phoning bc I?m hung up on him. He?s not about to come suddenly running towards me due to a phonecall. I can?t see any chance of that happening.

I want to think he respects me and is trying to move on and find his one true love. Or that his mother is pressuring him to be with me so he is balking and disappearing. Or that he is immature, doesnt know what love is, and something in him stopped him from "using" me and that sets me apart from the rest and gives me (false?) hope for the future. Part of me thinks he will not find Love, and that we need a close friendship and I want to work on that. But I can?t be the one pursuing the friendship after I put myself on the line in September. Can I? Maybe he thinks if we hang out I will take it as a sign of more than friendship, I don?t know. Maybe it is better to step back and let Fate play a roll. Instead of my enthusiasm creating meetings, I?ve been trying to step back and see what happens if I do nothing (well, nothing happens, as in every other area of my life, if I do nothing, nothing happens). That is, assuming that Fate will play some role in my life if I step back. So far though, nothing. Or rather, so far, 11 days of silence tell me fate doesn?t want me with him.

Over to you Matt ;-)

 

[matt]

Hehe, reading my own words again, maybe I have watched too much star trek

Elizabeth, friendship is easy, its equal, it doesnt matter who makes a first or second move. The fantastic thing about friendship is its unconditional brilliance, people can just be themselves. Love without friendship is not really love, its an empty interpretation of love. So all I could say is embrace the friendship without any attachment to future outcomes. Even if you are not there to have a relationship with him, you may have met him for a fateful reason, there may be things you have to teach each other. By the way, Im not sure if anyone follows astrological information here, but Mercury, the planet of thought/communication has just gone direct again (started moving forward). It has spent a long time in retrograde (moving backwards in relation to the Earths orbit) So typically, this is a time when all those delays that have been going on in peoples lives start to get a kickstart to move again. New ideas form and its a great time for new communication. Hmm, yes I've decided, I have DEFFINATELY watched too much star trek

 

[matt]

Oh, there is this saying I picked up from a movie I really like;

"The beauty of the Tango, is that if you get all tangled up, you can just Tango on"
(or something like that

)

Thats the wonder of life, tango with it, and it will dance back.

 

[elizabeth]

Matt,

After a night of restlessness, you brought a smile to my face. Thanks .

I also got up to see that this gentleman had phoned my cell last night. I'm a terribly light sleeper, it is strange I didnt hear it ring at all. I had strange dreams about strange random people, probably 5 or 6 dreams (like I said, little sleep). But I'm thrilled he phoned. I'll call back after work tonight, I am nervous as anything which isnt' good :-(.

I DO follow Mercury and had been following astrology for quite some time. I wasn't aware of this Mercury retro tho -- good to know that explains some of this!! Oh, and I dont think you watch too much star trek

 

[jerryd]

The Egg is Peeping, chipping away at the inner core, embryonic I am, but born yesterday NO, this is a second comming for me. If age has an advantage it is only that walking the paths before you I have trod the grasses down. Unfortunately for us both it was not in your shoes, nor your feet in my shoes. But heed not the mistakes of others yours are yet to be made, persue thine own carefully expecting the same results as before, should you not have learned from the past. And oh yes, there is always the possibility of having the same outcome even if the road taken is differrent from the last. So let it be said all roads lead to Rome, sometimes......but always in our past.

You need to thank Void, for this little production from the Egg-O-Studio in lovely down town Perth Australia.

 

[elizabeth]

Hello again, after a short absence. I thought I would leave the thread to move on to greener pastures but find I have another question.
Ive still not spoken to the gentleman in question (two week, one day mark, today). I asked the Yi what about sending a card to his family (for the holidays). It gave me 55.3 -> 51.

55. F?ng / Abundance (Fullness)
The Arousing, Thunder
The Clinging, Flame
Abundance has success.
The king attains abundance.
Be not sad.
Be like the sun at midday.

The Image
Both thunder and lightning come:
The image of Abundance.
Thus the superior man decides lawsuits
And carries out punishments.

L3:
The underbrush is of such abundance
That the small stars can be seen at noon.
He breaks his right arm. No blame.

and 51, Shock.

At first i read 55.3 to mean I would be eclipsed (bad idea); then I read another post in which 55.3 suggests we can now see clearly ahead and the eldest son is in the lead. The gentleman in question is the eldest son, but in my family, i'm the eldest daughter.

51 always scares me. Like a warning.

Am i interpreting correctly?

 

[elizabeth]

I have disappointing news, and I wanted to update all those who helped me previously on this thread.

This gentleman phoned my cell phone a week ago and did not leave a message. As there was no message, I didnt phone back. He phoned again Saturday night and we had a normal conversation. Then, he said that he had phoned a week ago and thought I had left the country (he knows I am leaving for vacation in the US sometime this month). I said no, I'm still here. He said his MOTHER wanted to invite me to her birthday party. Which reminded me of his birthday, and I asked how it was. He said it was fine, they celebrated it at home. I started to say "thank you for the invitation" and he said "no, thank HER, it is her party and her invitation." I had to phone her the next day to decline the invitation since I had received it on such late notice and I'm preparing for my own trip. She said that he told her that I had already left the country. She said another reason for calling was she wanted to talk to me about my apartment buying procedure. I could see visions of my real estate issues becoming the topic of someone's bday celebration who i barely know! I declined and wished her a happy new year.

This gentleman didnt invite me to his bday but it sounds, if he is not lying to me, that he didnt have one. I am offended however, that he didnt bother to leave a phone message, send an email or an SMS to confirm my whereabouts, and instead told his mom I had already left. Not only that, but my departure was so insignificant that he didnt bother to find out when I was leaving, wish me a good trip or ask when I'd rreturn. (Even my friends have asked these things!) To me this spells he did not want me, for whatever reason, at his mom's bday party and also didnt want to take us all apartment hunting, which I had told him before I didnt need his/their help but was very appreciative of the offer (and i have already declined four times already bc i dont want them involved in my financial affairs).

I dont know how this man could have gone from roses in the snow and walks in the park and ten thousand photos of me, and summertime at the family's cabin...to not caring when I leave, not wanting to wish me well, doing all he ccan to stop his mom from contacting me, and, when he finally has to contact me for her, being so downright rude and mean.

I wanted to send him a holiday card but i dont think he would even care. I dont want to stoop to his level and NOT send one just bc he isnt acting like a decent human being. I THOUGHT we had friendship, at the bare minimum. That is what he said in September. I cant imagine what i've done to offend him, aside from not contacting him much the past month or two. I dont see that as reason to treat me this way though, and when we did speak i was very warm and friendly -- i could tell he felt that warmth.

I feel as if some veil has been lifted and what i'm looking at is the ugliest picture i've ever seen, and for the past 12 mos i was looking at something totally different. Why?

Can someone give me the positive slant on this? am i being overcritical?

 

[bruce]

Only positive slant I can see is "live and learn". Roses have thorns, and so does life. Look backward or move forward; it's a choice. Once the choice to move forward is sealed, you become free again. Until then, you are bound to the thorns and a few nice memories. Does it really hurt that good?

 

[jerryd]

YEAH...what Bruce said,

 

[luz]

Yeah!!
I love it: "does it really hurt that good?"!
But it's true, we all fall in love with our little pain, right?

 

[bruce]

It lets you know you're alive, at any rate. Why else would we do that to ourselves?

That's probably why long marriages also makes long lives. You're not obsessing, flirting with 31, and have moved on to 32.

 

[luz]

We are all masochists, the human race!
But some long marriages can be painful too. A masochist's dream. You've never heard of long suffering husbands?

 

[elizabeth]

Ugh. I was hoping i was jumping to conclusions and he is still really my prince and this was just an "off day". :-(

Bruce, what did you mean, flirting with 31 and moving on to 32? did you mean my age or a hexagram (?)

 

[bruce]

Elizabeth, using large images don't always apply to particular relationships, but the idea was that studies have shown, for example, that men and women both live longer when in a committed marriage. This is a model of the enduring (self-perpetuating) relationship in 32 - in contrast with the flirtatious image of 31, where, there is a lot of wooing, romance, chocolates and flowers; though I think a truly fulfilling marriage retains a fair share of that.

If you're curious about this, contemplete the trigrams of each. 31 is the youngest daugher over the youngest son (or just young woman and man). 32 is the eldest son over the eldest daughter (or mature man and woman).

This isn?t meant to present marriage as any sort of solution, or to say one is right and the other wrong, but 31 and 32 are two different expressions of union between the sexes.

 

[void]

Positive slant - yes I think everyone gets involved with someone like this once in their lives - but I think its an experience not repeated because you're wise to it, you know the signs. Its good if it happens when your're young, then its out of the way and you can avoid those fickle people for ever and find some good loving. Comfort yourself with the thought that if he goes on this way his mothers about the only woman who is going to stick with him !

 

[bruce]

Funny you should say that, Void. I was just talking with my oldest friend (we go back 47 years), who introduced me to Yi some, mmm, jeepers, some 36 years ago. We were talking about the difference then from now, in regard to the Yi, Tao and such. Back then it was mostly ideas and feelings, discussions about how this is and what that means.

When older, if you've internalized it enough over a long enough time, and if this was a consistent and genuine effort, you become those thoughts and feelings, and maybe even those ideals. The best you can do then is to just be it, which is just being more genuinely yourself. Words in either direction just don't mean as much anymore, no matter how true or brilliant they may be. What others think of you also loses its significance. Or as my friend quoted: "Once conform, once do what others do because they do it, and a kind of lethargy steals over all the finer senses of the soul." ?Michel De Montaigne

And I agree with you, you do learn to avoid those people that hurt you. Part of 36, I believe.

 

[elizabeth]

Void, I'm 31.. not so young anymore. And I also didnt see any signs. I still dont understand what happened. Even if there were signs of the romance dying per se (or never being lit enough from the start?) that doesnt explain why the friendship has to die with it. I dont know if this guy is good or bad. I dont know if he set out to decieve or not. Aside from not knowing, my frustration lies not only in the loss of the friendship (as I interpret this last phonecall to mean), or my inability to control the outcome, but in the fact that I didnt see any signs and therefore do not know that I could prevent this again in the future. I honestly dont know that I could.

My biggest fear is that he will change drastically for the woman he loves, and I will be sad, still, that that could not have been me. That when he finds his love, or when he decides he does want a serious relationship (read: girlfriend), that he will put time, effort and thought into it, he will watch his every word and step, for fear of losing her.

What is it that makes a man realize the ideal woman doesnt exist?

And, what makes a man decide finally that he is done sowing oats and wants one life partner?

Bruce, its funny you mention long marriages. My "talent" lies in my durability. I can stay in a situation far longer than necessary, far longer than is healthy (and I have). Or you could reverse it to say I have a very hard time cutting bait and moving on; or else I dont "see" when it is time to do that until i've been whacked over the head a few times. I wish I didnt have this trait, I really do. I've also read that people who are married live longer, and in fact, this affects men more than women (men benefit on a physical health level from companionship with women more than women benefit from it). THEN WHY DOESNT THIS GUY WANT TO BE WITH ME SO HE DOESNT HAVE TO DIE EARLY? (ha sorry, kind of kidding, but i had to say that...)

 

[bruce]

Elizabeth,

Who ever said an ideal woman doesn't exist? The problem is that ideals can shift like the sand, in time. People grow apart because their ideals change. Or one changes but the other does not change along with them. Some are continuously changing their mind and focus, or can't make up their mind at all. Trying to keep up with that is like chasing the wind.

 

[nicky_p]

Hi Elizabeth,

"Who ever said an ideal woman doesn't exist?" As Bruce has said. It also popped into my head that you are indeed an ideal woman and he may very well be an ideal man - just not ideal for each other. Would you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who you couldn't be completely yourself with or they couldn't be completely themselves with you? Perhaps holding back a bit for fear of scaring him off? If he's that easily scared is he really for you? Someone is out there hoping for the same thing as you.

Big hug and love
Nicky
xx

 

[elizabeth]

Nicki & Bruce, thanks.

The problem is, my head is so confused that I see it differently. "If he's that easily scared..." Then, my brain says "give me a chance to show him my patience, that he doesnt need to be scared." Whatever the argument is, my brain says "give me a chance"...

Part of my brain believes he IS the ideal for me, and its just MY sucky luck that he doesnt see that I'm his ideal. Part of me thinks, I have tons to offer, why DOESNT he want me? Part of me thinks, I'm deficient in some way that he needs, and if only i knew what it was, I would change it so we could be together.

And part of me, after so long, honestly does not beleive there is someone out there for whom I will have feelings as strong as I do for this man, and who will also feel that way about me. Its a dream at this point. I dont understand how married couples find each other. Honestly, I don't. It is too impossible.

 

[luz]

Hi Elizabeth,

That is the nature of romantic love. It's a disease, kind of. Lol. You feel like you could never ever love anyone again but believe me, that is not true. You will love again and chances are you will also be heartbroken again, that is the nature of the game..
He seems to be the perfect partner for you right now. But, the truth is, there are no perfect partners. I don't believe the ideal woman or the ideal man exists. And I don't think that your friend is looking for an ideal woman, I think he's probably just looking to remain unattached. If one day he finds the 'right' person, it will be just a combination of chemistry and fate and who knows, maybe his biological clock will be beating real hard by then.. but that doesn't mean that you are lacking in any way.

Love yourself. Be nice to yourself. Engage in a love affair with yourself. I wish I could promise you that you will find ever lasting love but I don't really know. I hope you do. But I can promise you that you will love again and you will have great times again. And you will, in due time, laugh at this little obsession you have now..

 

[bruce]

Angel, I think there's big difference between ideal or perfect and ideal and perfect for a particular other. I sure ain't perfect.. no how, no way perfect. But who is to say I'm not perfect for someone else who isn't perfect?

 

[luz]

Bruce, I'm sure you are as perfect as it gets..

All of us are, pretty perfect, no?

I think it's a matter of expectations. Yes, you can have a 'perfect fit'. But I don't think that, most of the time, you get a perfect fit right from the start. Sure, when you fall in love you think the other person is not just ideal, but perfect! But that doesn't last forever or else there would be no divorces and no heartbreak in the world.

I love what LiSe says about Hex 19 regarding love in some old thread:

"Hex.19 has to do with seeing and accepting the other just the way he/she is. Another way to translate Lin is 'oversee'.
I think it is an advice: accept him, and also accept yourself. Let him be how he is, and you be how you are. That is the way to near closest to each other."

That is the ideal, I think. The people don't need to be 'ideal' for each other, they just make their relationship ideal by accepting themselves and each other. But I don't think this is easy. It takes dedication, desire, and a lot of effort.

 

[bruce]

And love. You do believe in love, don't you?

 

[bruce]

Angel, I just have to say, what you said sounds to me like "be brave and tough it out, you must be dedicated to make it work, even if it kills ya, there's a light at the end of the tunnel here somewhere. Maybe God will reward me for it in heaven.. or something" You know, sadly, I was in a relationship like that, the last 25 years of 32 years of it. I would never do it again, and I would never call it a good relationship.

No, I believe in something much better than that. But you're right, it couldn't be perfect. At least not by itself. It would take time and work. But it would be nice to be in good company while working on it, wouldn't it? I think that's very attainable.

 

[pakua]

"That is the nature of romantic love. It's a disease, kind of"

I just heard about another study they did, where they discovered that being in love stimulates the same brain chemicals that are involved with addictions.

Interesting thing, the brain.

 

[void]

Elizabeth its my experience there are people out there who actually take pleasure in causing others a great deal of emotional pain and confusion. Its hard to take that on board when you first meet it because to most of us its pretty alien - we may cause others pain but we don't set out to.

I think there are people who get their emotional kicks that way. People who are very inconsistent, who build you up to believe you mean alot to them and then let you down. Who knows why they do it and frankly who cares - its their sickness, not your problem.

So your confusion and pain I think is a natural reaction to someone just simply actually being pretty nasty and hurtful. I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt in thinking hes acted in innocence !! But don't be confused - its not confusing. Hes treated you badly, you have been hurt, you are now going to recover and be happy after licking your wounds for a while.

Don't honour him with any more of your time ! Oh and get wary the next time a man buys you flowers.

 

[luz]

Hey! I do believe in love, of course..

But I think that romantic love doesn't last forever. In fact, speaking of studies, I just read the other day that romantic love lasts for only one year at the most!

But it creates a nice firm foundation for real love. I didn't really mean to say that you have to tough it out. I meant more that you have to nurture that love, not just let it be there.. I meant that it is not very easy to accept yourself and other people just the way we are, because we have all this preconceptions of how the ideal man or woman should be and we want them to be that way and we want to be that way ourselves..

So, imo, it's not about an ideal person but maybe about a person that makes you feel in just the right way to love them completely in a very accepting way and that may even lead you to love yourself in such an ideal way!

And yes, while you struggle, it's good to be in good company..

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

If you're talking about oxytocin, the 'cuddle hormone', which is stimulated by birth, sex and cold showers, it promotes love, but inhibits rather than promotes certain (not all) addictions, in which case love would be the cure rather than the disease.

However, it can promote inappropriate love such as pedophilia when overproduced in males in which case love would definitely be a disease.

That's the only chemical (hormone) I know of that's associated with both love and addiction, but I know so little, so, no doubt, there are probably others. If that's not the one you were thinking of I'd love to know which one you were because I'm so terribly curious about these things.

Thanks!

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Hi Bruce and Lightangel...

I see the different lights you're both looking at duration of love in. Lightangel, I appreciate everything you say about nurturing love... yes it's true... and I wish I'd had that kind of wisdom a few years ago... when I had a love worth nurturing.

Bruce is saying something else altogether, though, which I believe to be very important as well. I believe he's talking about the sense of honor, obligation, duty, whatever it is that keeps a person in a less-than-satisfying situation, in his case, for 27 years.

Having read bits of the story on the forum in the past, I personally feel, Bruce, you did the very best thing for everyone involved when you finally walked away. And I'd love to hear more from you about your feelings and choices... at the risk of prying into your private domain, I really want to understand why ANYONE stays and what they feel. Tell me to mind my own business if you want... I'll understand. Otherwise, I'd love to know what kept you there? What happened that you were finally motivated to leave? And how do feel now that you made the decision? (And anything that occurs to you I didn't and should have asked.)

Thanks so much for indulging me.

Love,

Val