Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power?

[hilary]

Autumn, it sounds exactly as if you're talking about hexagram 18.

If someone's ill, or the weather is unseasonal, it could be that the trouble is caused by a neglected ancestral spirit. So your first task is (not exorcism, but) to find which spirit. The lines of Hexagram 18 echo oracle bones: 'Is it maybe ancestral father Y's gu? Is it maybe ancestral mother X's gu?' And when you find the spirit - the hidden influence from the past - causing the trouble, your task is (not exorcism, but) to remember, honour and nourish this spirit so that they become a true ancestor, a source of strength and blessing.

But it is worth mentioning that not every troubling pattern you divine about will turn out to be a Hexagram 18 disorder. Sometimes it's good to follow the patterns spontaneously without examination. Sometimes the disorder is best disowned, not delved into and investigated (25).

I s'pose the devil is in the 'sometimes'!

 

[lightofreason]

Autumn, it sounds exactly as if you're talking about hexagram 18.

the ball park is right. 18 and 50 (transformatio) operating out of the realm of cultivation,anticipation, and becoming influencial.

18 covers issues of nepotism, cronnyism and the neglect of 'correct ways'. As such there is a focus on restoration of the 'correct' history, to come up with, restore, the 'correct' entanglement. OTOH 50 covers raw into cooked, the process of transformation that can allow for one to be 'born again' and so perception of being 'free' of any history or to transcend it - create one's own.

The roots of transformation get nourishment from neutralising (cooking protects against poisons etc makes things palettable, easy to digest)

The infrastructure of transformation is described by analogy to 34 - invigorating.

The roots of correcting (18) get nourishment from admiring - issues of stand out, be an example, be made an example of.

The infrastructure of correcting is described by analogy to 11 - harmonising/balancing.

WITHIN the binary sequence octet of heaven, 34 and 11 form 'variations on a theme', as in the octet of wind so 18 and 50 form 'variations on a theme'

heaven:

11,26,05,09,34,14,43,01

made into a variation on a theme format:

11,26,05,09
34,14,43,01 (variations are in the columns)

wind:

46,18,48,57,32,50,28,44

made into a variations on a theme format:

46,18,48,57
32,50,28,44

chris.

 

[nicky_p]

And when you find the spirit - the hidden influence from the past - causing the trouble, your task is (not exorcism, but) to remember, honour and nourish this spirit so that they become a true ancestor, a source of strength and blessing.

I hope that this isn't out of place but if I may I'd like to honour and remember one of my ancestors. My grandad died 9 years ago today. I still talk to him. Sometimes I'm convinced he answers - but then I can't prove that.

 

[autumn]

Autumn,

I wasn’t aware I had narrowed life down to two choices. Certainly there are more than two colors, or what we perceive as colors.

What transformation are you speaking of? Transform what into what?

Well, what "demon", then are you talking about that people need to embrace? It sounds to me like you're talking about anguish and suffering, and associating it in a romantic way with creativity, as in- Van Gogh the suffering artist.

What I am saying is that "demons" are equivalent to suffering, or they aren't demons.
And, that suffering doesn't exist without the polarity between the "ideal" and the "real".

If you're just saying, people should do what they want without worrying about following the advice of the oracle, then there's no "demons" involved. But, if that were the case, then they wouldn't be consulting the oracle.

 

[bruce_g]

Autumn,

Ok, I think I see what you’re saying. I’ve not given a name or a symptom to “demon”, and I don’t automatically associate either with anguish or suffering, though they certainly can’t be eliminated as symptoms of an untamed demon. I was referring more to passions than to angst. I did not suggest not using the oracle, I only posed a question to get people thinking about using it (or any other practice) to their determinant. Again, I do not agree that demons (as I intended it) must be associated with suffering.

I’m going to be busy for awhile, but let me think more about this. I seem to have given a wrong impression.

 

[jesed]

Hi autumn

Kind of dificult to express in a public forum; but there are some "guidelines" (including both scientific and spiritual evaluations).

Sorry cann't elaborate better

Best wishes

 

[heylise]

About demons...

I lived many years with an artist, and I know about lots of demons. I guess there are many other kinds too, but he was loaded with the kind which can yield creativity. Extremely difficult to live with, demanding all of me, day in day out. But just as well of (for) the artist himself.

If he could have gone to a psychiatrist, he might have lost some of them, and it sure would have made his life a lot easier. But he absolutely refused that. He said, he was rather the artist, with all the trouble which belongs to it, than losing that and having to live with a life he could oversee.

So he preferred nights haunted by overwhelming thoughts of huge disasters, and next day we had to board up the last windows which were still open, and live in the pitchdark from then on. Thankgod there is electricity. Or bring the whole stock of works to a storage, because it would be stolen. Only to get it back a month later, because it would be stolen there... I lost count of all the times we have been carrying paintings up and down stairs.

A mail I got two days ago, from a collectioner, owner of a gallery in US:
"Here was something unlike anything else – fresh, uncluttered, a third eye into an expressive soul that had no finesse and that brooked no dishonesty. ...His is the product of alienated logic arising from idiosyncratic reaction to abnormal times. His thought processes permeate his fascinating renditions. One can evidence a genius and a quality second to none ... an iconographically central place in not only modern Dutch art, but in the evolution of post-war etching, the depth and understanding of which is still to be fully ascertained. "
This is the value of demons, the wild creatures which make people do things outside normal and accepted behavior. These things can be destructive, or they can bring great values, which cannot be accessed without them.

But in order to bring those values, the demons have to be tamed. Not by taking away their power, or their color, not even the trouble they bring the artist himself, and believe me, that trouble is huge! He tames them by accepting them as a bigger way of life, a more essential way, and so giving them a worthy existence of their own. For him they are teachers. With them he can turn his life into art, and bring art to the world.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Having just read LiSe’s post, I am greatly relieved, though not surprised, that she understands what I’ve been trying to say. First hand, through experience and not just in theory. Beautiful!

Anton was an extreme man, and extreme artist. Most of us here deal with these demons on a much less extreme basis. That means we don’t have to board up windows or carry things up and down the stairs repeatedly. Perhaps for us, mindfulness is all that’s required. We can still be creative in our own smaller way, if we don’t sterilize ourselves; or as Jesed has said: try to be perfect.

 

[autumn]

Patis, to suffer
Passio, passion

Autumn, it sounds exactly as if you're talking about hexagram 18.
If someone's ill, or the weather is unseasonal, it could be that the trouble is caused by a neglected ancestral spirit. So your first task is (not exorcism, but) to find which spirit. The lines of Hexagram 18 echo oracle bones: 'Is it maybe ancestral father Y's gu? Is it maybe ancestral mother X's gu?' And when you find the spirit - the hidden influence from the past - causing the trouble, your task is (not exorcism, but) to remember, honour and nourish this spirit so that they become a true ancestor, a source of strength and blessing.

Hexagram 18 is a pretty good visual image of 'transformation'. To grow something new out of decay- out of Humus. Energetically, though, the new cannot grow from the old until the process has been complete. Living things have to go through a great deal of decay before they reach the point of "humus", and can nourish new growth.

In your analogy of transforming the anger of the ancestral spirits, a person has to reach back into the past and give what is buried there light and acknowledgement, which is completing the cycle of decay, and allowing transformation.

In Astrology, Pluto completes the cycle of Mars. Mars is the "will" of the conscious mind. Pluto is the "higher will" of the soul. Pluto brings the opposition of Mars to completion. Sometimes, that means literal death in people's lives during a Pluto transit. Sometimes, it means experiencing the root of a person's worst fears and going beyond them. Sometimes, it means complete re-building. So, the "passion" associated with Mars is about pursuing. You can't pursue something you have. You do not have. There is polarity. Pluto transforms polarity.

One strong visual image I have of "transformation" is from a novel I read about 8 years ago in my women's latin literature class, and I cannot for the life of me remember the author or the book, but it was an awesome image. It is about an orange tree that is the reincarnated ancestral spirit of a women who lives in a house near the tree. I can't remember the book, but the transformation theme was woven throughout the story. In the end, the woman who was living in the house by the orange tree sacrificed her life for some political cause.

 

[hilary]

If it were anyone other than LiSe, I wouldn't write this - but it is, so I will, because I know you know the fellow-feeling and admiration I have for you. Didn't you ever wonder - maybe as you climbed the stairs with the paintings again... - whether he might not have been just as great an artist if he'd been less afraid?

 

[autumn]

Having direct, intimate experience with others with severe mental illnesses, I am emphatically opposed to that idea. That is a very naive perspective on mental illness.
Creativity does not come from illness. They are two separate mental processes.

 

[autumn]

BUT it is true that there is sometimes a correlation between mood disorders and creativity. The best authority on this is Kay Jamison, a psychiatrist with bi-polar disorder.

"Kay Redfield Jamison is a professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who has talked openly and honestly about her own manic depressive emotional instability. Her review of current research leads her to conclude that a large number of established artists - "far more than could be expected by chance" - can be diagnosed with bipolar disorder or major depression (4). Jamison believes that several corroborating diagnostic and psychological analyses of living artistic populations provide meaningful evidence that highly creative people experience major mood disorders more often than do other groups in the general population. So for her there is a clear link between psychic instability and creativity. But Jamison warns against simplistic notions of the "mad genius." She points out that most emotionally unstable people are not extraordinarily creative, and most extraordinarily creative people are not emotionally unstable. She then asks the question: how might mania or depression contribute to creative accomplishment?

The characteristics of milder forms of mania are very similar to creative thought, Jamison asserts. Acutely tuned senses, restlessness, irritability, grandiosity, thought diversity, and the ability to associate divergent ideas and thoughts rapidly are all hallmarks of both the creative and mildly manic (or "hypomanic") individual. Jamison describes two features central to both creative and hypomanic thought. First, thought is fluid, rapid, and flexible. In addition, there is heightened ability to merge ideas and thoughts that have no conventional connection. (4). Many psychologists, Jamison points out, have emphasized the importance of fluid, quick, and divergent thinking in producing new, original, and "creative" ideas. Rapidity of thought itself spurs creativity. "Because of the more rapid flow of ideas," Psychologist Eugene Bleuler explains, "and especially because of the falling off of inhibitions, artistic activities are facilitated even though something worth while is produced only in very mild cases and when the patient is otherwise talented in this direction. The heightened senses naturally have the effect of furthering this." (8). Observing an incredible outpouring of uncensored mental activity by his manic friend Lord Byron, Sir Walter Scott said: "The wheels of a machine to play rapidly must not fit with the utmost exactness else the attrition diminish the Impetus." (8). But the sheer volume or density of ideas spewing from a manic person's mind increases the likelihood that at least some of those ideas will be creative ones. A person who goes to bat a million times is more likely to get a hit than someone who only steps to the plate a few hundred times."

 

[heylise]

Never said creativity 'comes' from mental illness. And not even actually talking about mental illness. Everybody on this planet has some or other demon, or some even a whole bunch of them. But that does not mean they all have some or other mental illness. Only when the demons are too big to handle, or the person too weak, or without the possibility to do so, then mental illness can be the result.

I was talking about the demons normal people do have, and the demons which make some people to extraordinary people because they found a way to give them value.

I have demons myself, and I found my happiness when I found a way to incorporate them in my life. As long as I feared them, I was not even 'me' and life was a disaster, and as long as I feared them less but still tried to get rid of them, I was unhappy.

What an artist does, is not fearing them, on the contrary. He embraces them, accepts the intense thoughts and feelings they bring, and lives completely through all that. Even when that is shaking him up to his bones. It is not fear, it is courage.

LiSe

 

[autumn]

I was talking about the demons normal people do have, and the demons which make some people to extraordinary people because they found a way to give them value. I have demons myself, and I found my happiness when I found a way to incorporate them in my life. As long as I feared them, I was not even 'me' and life was a disaster, and as long as I feared them less but still tried to get rid of them, I was unhappy. What an artist does, is not fearing them, on the contrary. He embraces them, accepts the intense thoughts and feelings they bring, and lives completely through all that. Even when that is shaking him up to his bones. It is not fear, it is courage. LiSe

This is close to what I was trying to say.

Yes, an artist transforms mediums through creativity, which is like birth. But in the inner world there is transformation, too, because fear, anger, discontent, polarities, are freed in the work. Art is a means of working through intense suffering.

My disagreement is with the idea- suppose you have a person who is full of inner misery, and they work through some of the misery in art, or in an intense destructive experience in life, like, in Bruce's example, an Artist decides it would be dangerous to stay away from the "seamly", so they go out on the street and prostitute themselves to make sure they're sufficiently full of misery to be good artists.

I am arguing that that artist is preventing the best art in themselves because they are preventing their own transformation. They are holding on to this "opposition", this misery, thinking it is fueling their artisitic process, when in fact they are getting stuck, which will ultimately drain their vitality.





(I'm sorry,one of my daughters came by and told me to add the blue smiley face with the sunglasses.)

 

[bruce_g]

Bruce's example, an Artist decides it would be dangerous to stay away from the "seamly", so they go out on the street and prostitute themselves to make sure they're sufficiently full of misery to be good artists.

I said that?

 

[bruce_g]

I’m afraid that is quite a distortion of what I've said, Autumn. I didn’t say an artist must go out and prostitute themselves, or that he must seek out the seamy in order to be creative. The seamy is inherent in a creative person. It’s inherent in us all to various degrees.

Secondly, I’ve repeatedly said that the demon/bull/boar whatever, is to be tamed, not ignored, repressed, denied, killed, evicted, or allowed free reign. Tamed. Befriended. Understood. Yes. Yijing or professional counseling may be a way to do that, so long as the individual reckons with their darkness and doesn’t seek to entirely eradicate it.

Thirdly, I’ve never suggested on this thread or any other that proper counseling isn’t a good thing. I’ve never promoted mental illness or doing away with any means to understand yourself better or to heal yourself of destructive behavior patterns. I never even mentioned destructive behavior.

 

[bruce_g]

Ah, I just noticed where you got 'seek out the seamy side', from LiSe's 44.4. Ok, my bad. I did refer to that, yes.

 

[rosada]

"One Demon Inviting in All The Others"

 

[bruce_g]

Going to retire from this awhile as there’s other things that need doing. I don’t know if anyone here has read this already, but I’m going to share it here now, in case anyone’s interested in how I dealt with my own inner demon in two dreams; or maybe I should say how my unconscious/subconscious/conscious dealt with it. This was experienced during an incredibly difficult and frightening spiritual renewal and revolution. I hope you won’t find it too self indulgent. Perhaps this also speaks to Autumn's idea of transformation.

White Dog and Black Beast:

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/dreams/whitedog.htm

 

[bruce_g]

I think next time, before I start what might be a controversial thread, I’ll poke myself in the eye with a pencil instead.

 

[hilary]

Just so long as you start the controversial thread as well.

I wonder how much anyone can really know about another person's 'colour' or lack of it.

Take my great-uncle Bill, for instance. He was a naturalist, a scientific observer of his world. He kept rainfall measurements in his garden for so many decades that the Met office sent him a book as a thankyou. He trapped and ringed birds for as many decades, so their territories, migrations and life cycles could be recorded. He wrote a nature column for the Guardian, one that began with phrases like 'A robin that knows its way round the house...' . He reviewed books. When my parents came round he would take them round the garden telling them the Latin names of the plants, because he wanted to learn their English translations. He grew vegetables and fruit in his garden in great quantity, and threw the snails onto the stone path to make it easier for the thrushes and blackbirds.

His only child had died in his 20s, killed in a car crash. His wife died not long afterwards. He lived for many years with his sister, caring for her as she became more of an invalid, until her death, and then he lived alone. He never mentioned any of this.

He died at home, and the nurses who cared for him there saw to it that there was a bird feeder outside his bedroom window. When we saw him a few days before his death, he said he was 'doing a count' of the various species that were visiting the feeder. A day or so after this, a friend came over and they planned out his funeral together.

Would anyone like to imagine the funeral of this mild, undemonstrative, conscientious old naturalist? It took place at the crematorium. His friend told funny stories about their time together in radio. We listened to a recording of bird song, and another recording of Bill reciting his own poetry (I'd never had any idea Bill wrote poetry). He'd chosen one hymn - Jerusalem:

"...Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire.
Bring me my spear! Oh, clouds unfold
Bring me my chariot of fire..."

 

[Sparhawk]

Would anyone like to imagine the funeral of this mild, undemonstrative, conscientious old naturalist? It took place at the crematorium. His friend told funny stories about their time together in radio. We listened to a recording of bird song, and another recording of Bill reciting his own poetry (I'd never had any idea Bill wrote poetry). He'd chosen one hymn - Jerusalem:

"...Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire.
Bring me my spear! Oh, clouds unfold
Bring me my chariot of fire..."

Hilary, that was one of the most beautiful posts I've read here in a long time. Thanks for it.

L

 

[bruce_g]

That’s beautiful. From the way you described him, Hilary, it wasn’t at all difficult to imagine at least some of his colors. And it’s no surprise to me how he spent his last days, or how he chose to simply burn his body at the end. And his trials and passion, if only for birds, each one of them make a beautiful color and sound.

You know, I talk about demons and seamy and darkness and all, as though defending a lustful lifestyle, yet nothing could be further from the truth. I hold out my lust only for my love, and that’s been for over 15 years. I regard my celibacy and simple way of living as a sacred thing. And yet, I have as friends, people of the wildest and most decadent colors. There’s no judgment or fear on my part or theirs. We’ve made friends of our demons.

I have to say, I’m discouraged and disappointed at the narrow way this topic has been met. I would have expected more understanding and openness. It took a lot of my energy to continue with it, and most of it was spent defending a simple idea.

This is an I Ching site, and this topic is I Ching related. Just because this topic presents a dark side, is no reason not to open up and at least try to understand it.

 

[autumn]

I love your white dog/black beast story. In the dream, you touched the face of the beast, and in doing so, owned it. Owning it allowed it to be "tamed".

The seamy is inherent in a creative person. It’s inherent in us all to various degrees.

Nothing "seamy" is inherently part of anything. Nothing is "seamy" until it is judged to be seamy. You become what you judge. That is the polarity between the ideal and the real, and that pole is the "demon". If it were just what it was, then it would be neither good or bad. It would be what it is. If the consequences are destructive, then we have other choices. God never judges anything "seamy". Like the white dog, God observes choices.

 

[lightofreason]

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18825265.800

http://www.lorenbennett.org/creativity.htm

http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/404.asp

Note the cycles of bipolar can span YEARS.

Also note that the realm of the SINGULAR and so unique consciousness cotnains the notions of the random and the miraculous. It is the home of innovative creativity (as compared to adaptive creativity) as it is the home of psychosis (and so schizoid natures as well as manic - high energy, intense. The schizoid element allows for 'novel' associations etc)

Projection/transference dynamics allow for the 'implanting' of emotions into an individual and the sensing of such can elicit interpretations of the presence of demons 'in here' in that if there is no detecable history of the emotion then imagination will take over... and that covers the creation of stories turned from fiction to fact all due to lack of understanding of basic neuroscience re 'n here' - so the best path is to "Know thyself"

example of the realm of spirits emerging from lack of understanding -

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/angels.html

Chris.

 

[heylise]

I really love this thread. And when now and then there is no understanding, I don't mind. Here in Holland, we have been in the media for more than 30 years, but I hardly ever met anyone who understood. So I know how hard it is.

When people come in our house, it makes a huge impression, and only then they sometimes understand some of it, because they 'feel' it. Occasionally I get a mail from someone, who has been here decades ago, and who tells me he or she lives with this since that time. It seems "something" is open here, which is hardly anywhere else. That does not imply that other people miss something. It is as if an artist opens a door, wide, which usually only has some tiny cracks through which people can guess there is more than they could have imagined. I guess opening that door is the difference between the madness of an artist and the madness of someone who is not.

Hilary's beautiful story about her uncle makes something 'felt', and so does Bruce's story of his dream. They explain more than when you just talk about it, it is a little bit living it.

It is not an exclusive right of artists, almost everyone knows some of it, the cracks in the door.. Maybe the most difficult part in explaining is, that every time in every person, it is unique. Not ever is it identical to the experience of anyone else.

The life with the water in and around me
became more and more spiritual
so that I now, fifty years later,
feel that my ship lies on the bottom of the sea
and that is where I live in.
That is where I really feel in my element.
I see now, that – humanly spoken – it has a beauty,
a ship on the water.
But still, it stays a straight line to the end.

I feel now the sunken ship on the bottom as my home
and I feel now that I live
in the mythological time of the circle
where there is no death.
The beauty of the falling apart of the wreck
has now become my own
and I think not one human thought anymore.
The streaming of the sea determines my life
that has no time anymore.

Anton Heyboer

 

[bruce_g]

Autumn, I’m glad you enjoyed the dreams. Like the metaphor or the oracle, how it speaks to you is how it speaks.

It is like art itself:
someone either gets it or they don’t.
The spirit doesn’t move past things,
it moves through them.

 

[nicky_p]

I had a dream but I was awake
I'll not tell the whole story
Not for myself but for other's sake
For in opening myself I open them too
Faced with the dilema what would you do?

When the shadows become real
and fireflies dance
When you sit in the dark
and ponder romance
When you travel across the void of your own heart
And what you find in there gives you a start
Should you share? Or just take care?

When a young girl swears quietly under her breath
At the stupidity of paying for life with death
At the wonder and magic of what she holds in her hand
At the realisation that life really is grand
For once in the darkness of a cold lonely night
She had wished she was dead with all of her might
Not realising her wishes could actually be heard
She unwittingly let go of her most precious bird
But the powers that be said: "Give her some slack
She gave you her all: give her some back."
They took her out of her body
to look from above
That what she was a slave to
wasn't fear but love
And that she will follow until her dying day
I freely admit: I'm a slave to my way.
I accept that with all the demons it may bring
I had a dream
and in it I had a song to sing.

 

[autumn]

someone either gets it or they don’t.

I get it perfectly.

 

[autumn]

Why, I wonder, is it not YOU who does not get ME?