Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power?

[bruce_g]

Dare I mention Trojan, without first getting a helmet on? She doesn’t know, I think, how much I admire her for her candor, brutal as it sometimes is. Do I see you in me? Yes, of course. Here in the southwest we call it ‘good horse sense’.

 

[bruce_g]

Learner, boy you’re a pest sometimes. But a good pest. You keep tabs on me, as though to keep me honest, an occasional kick on the shin to make certain of it. You can change polarity like a light bulb’s innards. You’re a challenge, and I like that. You live in here too. Do I live in you?

 

[bruce_g]

There’s many other witches and warlocks dancing around this fire, some who have taught me more than they could ever know. I have a story, mythological speaking, for each one. Each one teaches me something, though not always what they had hoped. Doesn’t matter though, I need them all.

 

[nicky_p]

And, Nicky, whose words are not always clear, were very clear. Funny how some people need a bit of chaos before they can feel well ordered. Gem'ni thing I guess.

Humpf I think I've been pegged
Am I back? I went somewhere strange!

 

[jesed]

And, Jesed, who like me, is always right.

Am I?

Certainly not

Best wishes.. and don't lose your colors due to the hard time with this thread

 

[stevev]

Hey Bruce, 'a fence', is that some sort of boundry ?

 

[Trojina]

Dare I mention Trojan, without first getting a helmet on? She doesn’t know, I think, how much I admire her for her candor, brutal as it sometimes is. Do I see you in me? Yes, of course. Here in the southwest we call it ‘good horse sense’.

Well Bruce I was actually just about to chop your head off then was disarmed by your sympathetic appraisal of my forum persona. I learn alot here too and not just about the I Ching. Sometimes i watch in true awe as people with diametrically opposing views discuss an issue with no bad feeling, you know its a life skill I really have not yet mastered (yet) I think "how do they do that". Hex 9 is what I need to work on, outer refinement of the personality.

 

[bruce_g]

"how do they do that".

It's through mental dexterity or bi-polar disorder, Trojan; I’m not sure which.

Thanks for sparing my head.

 

[bruce_g]

Hey Bruce, 'a fence', is that some sort of boundry ?

Dunno. Care to elaborate?

 

[Trojina]

It's through mental dexterity or bi-polar disorder, Trojan; I’m not sure which.

Thanks for sparing my head.

Eh ? I meant how do two people with opposing views manage to communicate without getting uptight ? I meant being around here I noticed it was something others could do that I couldn't do without alot of 52,3 lol.

 

[mudpie]

Bruce the name I use is Listener, not Learner ...lol.......but I guess they aint so different.
I for one did not like this thread. sorry. The topic was not offensive, but if you wanted to be provocative, starting with "I wonder if " I " have lost my vibrancy because of YI" or "if "one" can lose their vibrancy"...would have been more honest and inviting. but equally controversial.

I dont really think I change polarity, but I am rather like trojan in that I am a nit picker for detail and for wanting an argument to make sense. That whole jesus/demons things felt like it was just a wild distortion to try and prove a point, and it made no sense! It just made no sense.
Plus the whole argument for creativity and demons being inseparable.....there was nothing i "didn't get"........but quite frankly - NO OFFENSE_ I see it as sophmoric.....I loved all that autmn said about Transformation. Thats where the real color is, as far as I am concerned......... I am a long time away from watching someone like Billy holliday kill herself with heroin in Lady Sings the Blues and thinking it was "cool" and colorful.

And I know, I know.....we could argue some more.....but the whole argument got under my skin.
I like what trojan says......to learn to argue without ire or without coming on too strong is a lesson I need to learn too. OH boy do I. BUt I also really admire autumn because she says her piece without fear, take it or leave it. I am more like the pest you describe, throwing in zingers without really stating my case

Hilary is probably the master. She disagrees so charmingly, and says everything with an equanimity and finesse.

so although I did not like the meat of this thread, I do like what I have learned about internet social dynamics and about the people who shared themselves here. Let the colors fly.
and bruce, I just need to add this.although sometimes you infuriate me ( just a little), I always remember how your voice sounded when we had the internet-athon or whatever it was. For anyone who has never heard him, Bruce has a voice that sounds so sexy and outrageous, so soothing and wise sounding. So I put your words into that voice in my head and it softens me up....and I let you off the hook. anyone with a voice that beautiful has got be a cool guy. and you are

 

[bruce_g]

Listener, sorry for the slip. Yes, I guess they are the same.

There's really a lot missing in communicating through typed words, that's so true. People read all sorts of moods into my typed words that, in reality, are far more friendly than it comes off. Thank you for your kind comments on my voice.

I respect what you're saying. My approach, the thread, topic, all of it, isn't everyone's cup of tea. Just like in-depth discussions of ancient China aren't for me, or at least not as a steady diet. I "get it" only sorta, but I don't really get it. I leave that to those who more fully get it, those with a passion for it. I eek through osmosis enough from them to get by.

For clarification, my impromptu little poem (the "get it" one) was speaking of art. No specific art or anyone's ‘getting it’ in particular, just art in general is that way. And, different people ‘get’ different kinds of art, music, poetry. I don’t get classical, Hilary probably doesn’t get blues. Abstract thought is a specialty; it doesn't come easily or naturally to everyone. It probably does sound like just a lot of gibberish to most. That doesn't make one any cooler than the other. It's just different facility strengths. Ask me to subtract numbers and I’ll be using my fingers and toes. And names… well, you already how great I am at remembering them. :bag:

I also was interested to hear more about transformation. I asked Autumn: transformation of what? From what to what? Maybe she answered and I didn’t get it. I’m still interested in hearing more about transformation.

Thanks!

 

[bruce_g]

I was just recalling a little remedial punctuation tutoring from Hilary, which she was gracious enough to offer at my request. I, was, putting comma's and, apostrophe's everywhere before she, explained: their, proper, use. She has a gift to teach. A soft touch. Who knows? I may have become an academic (shreek!) if I had a teacher like her in school.

 

[hollis]

Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power? Can the Yi cause more harm than good, specifically to those who seek to serve it, obey it or conform to it?

Hello, my name is Gray.

I am a Yijingaholic.

I am powerless over the judgements of the Yijing. Or of anyone. If someone says 'boo' I believe them.

Using the microcosm of this very forum by way of example, I have witnessed the colors, flare and vibrancy go out of some here. I have also seen those who appear to lack personal power and dynamics, who remain in a pale state of neutrality. Only my subjective opinion or personal projection? Maybe. I’ll let you decide that.

Okay, but let me ask the Yijing first.

I believe that we can so yield to the authority from which the Yi speaks, trusting implicitly in everything we interpret it as saying, that we stand to lose the best of what we are made of in the process.

Authority figures have really done a number on me, so, the best of me, yes, it's lost, and now you have this dreg to deal with.

This can also been seen in some who have gone through extensive therapy, seeking to “clean up their act”, and exorcise all of their demons.

My mother. Could never get her out of my system.

The same is true, in general, for the Christian religion. All demons are to be cast out, no “bad” habits are to remain. This is a travesty of the teaching of the one they claim to follow. Jesus spoke a parable in Mathew 12:43-45, which says:

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

Kali -Yuga. Which is the ever present return. The 'now'.

Christians reconcile the meaning of this parable as saying, no one is capable of casting out their own demons; only Jesus can do that.

What do they know, poor things. What is left of them after the dark ages, anyway.

I do not believe that is at all what Jesus was saying. I believe that Jesus was saying what was later said by Nietzsche:

“Be careful about casting out your demon, you might be casting out the best part.”

Careful, a little Nietzsche is a dangerous thing.

So, call me the devil, because I admonish you

Devil.

: do not become anemic in your effort to become “The Superior Man”. Screw the Superior Man, screw the I-Ching, screw Lao Tzu and Jesus too, if to follow them means losing who you really are, and all those beautiful colors of life.

Okay. Hear you loud and clear. I have a soft spot for Jesus though, so I dont want to screw him.

Thanks Bruce.:bows:

 

[bruce_g]

lol!

Hello, Hollis. Thanks for your input.

 

[Sparhawk]

Careful not to let Luis hear you. I think he’s into that stuff.

Hey!! Don't be spilling by fetishes around!! Can't trust you man! Now I can't surprise them anymore...

 

[bruce_g]

Hey!! Don't be spilling by fetishes around!! Can't trust you man! Now I can't surprise them anymore...

We like what we like. lol.. And you're always full of surprises!

 

[Sparhawk]

I’m not sure why this happens. When I’m thinking it, hearing it in my head, it doesn’t sound rude. It just sounds like an honest voice, one I could trust.

Bruce's Head...

That question mark and the two headed arrow are the culprits...

L

 

[bruce_g]

Indeed, Luis. Spot on.

I just asked the Yi, what is your evaluation of this thread? 13

 

[nicky_p]

I just asked the Yi, what is your evaluation of this thread? 13

13 - Fellowship. Kinda like friendship, right? With all our wierd faults and idiosyncracies.

 

[bruce_g]

Friendship, Nicky? I dunno. I dug into LiSe's page on 13 a bit:

"I think 13 is about the ‘tracks’ of humanity. I never buy so much into those rather social meanings of 13, everybody being so nice to each other. I think it is about collective traits, basic to all of humanity. They are the reason one can recognize one’s fellow human being."

This sounds more correct to me than friendship. Where people are gathered, so are their daemons, their collective traits.

It's also interesting to look up the difference between daemon and demon. Demon appears in AD Greece, long after daemon was around. It's like the difference between Satan and Pan. This, I believe, is where confusion entered into this thread. Pan was celebrated while Satan is simply feared.

 

[heylise]

I have been thinking a lot about this thread. About how impossible it is, to explain something to people who never experienced it themselves. Like speaking in a language they don't know. Nobody can blame a German for not understanding what that Italian guy is talking about.
Lol, looked in the dictionary: talk gibberish - "double Dutch".

I realize how very special it is, that Bruce understands. Occasionally people visit here, in our house, and sometimes understand, but probably because they can see/feel what is happening. Carin was one of them, came here 30 years ago or so, and could never forget it. So she emailed me last year, and now we are good friends. But from a distance, an internet away, that seems to be impossible.

Hexagram 13 does indeed make a lot of sense. "The noble one classifies the clans and reads the trails of creatures". All creatures have their own specific tracks, each recognizes its own kind, knows who came by, kin or alien.

When they associate only with the ones who are entirely similar, the group gets too narrow, like 13.2, or when one looks a bit too different to the rest, you get 13.4. But nobody can be blamed, it is a safety measure of nature, in order to protect the group. A way to keep evil influences away from it.

I don't mind being seen by some as one of those not-so-safe influences, I feel quite happy with how I am. I know, it is only about things I said, but not going to shut up either. Just not going to explain anything anymore, there is no point in it.

Daemon, demon, I like that. Makes talking at least a bit easier. Not that there really is a big difference between them, it just depends on the owner. A demon is a daemon who conquered you, a daemon is a demon you made friends with. There are ways to turn demons into daemons, art is one of them.

O yes, I was not going too say anything about it anymore
Oh well... there is still a 13.5...

LiSe

 

[autumn]

This thread has left me with a very bitter taste in my mouth, but not for the reasons the author would think. The bitter taste is because the conclusions at the end of the thread have nothing to do with ideas, and understanding or not understanding, in either an intellectual or an emotional way. I don't think a careful reading of the thread would lead to the conclusion that my ideas didn't connect with the ideas being expressed here, or didn't acknowledge the ideas being expressed here. I explained myself clearly. I didn't make references to esoteric, undefined, understanding that isn't accessible to everyone. Instead, the bitter taste is becaues I believe within this thread an exclusionary social dynamic is being played out. I believe that social dynamic is, "you are not one of me, come on team, get on my side".

I have nothing more to say about it, and will not comment on this thread again.

 

[jesed]

Hi autumn

Don't take it personal.

You know (I guess) that in enneagram, there is type 4, called "the artist". Another name is "the individualist".

The basic fear of type 4 is that they have no identity or personal significance
Therefore, the basic desire of type 4 is to find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)
Then, the bascic mechanism is to reinforce what make them diferent. From here came expressions like: nobody can really understand me beacuse they don't know how I feel.

As any other type... there are really good things in this; but can be very bad things. Depending on the balance or disbalance

Russo talks about 9 stages from more balanced to more inbalanced (3 healthy; 3 averange and 3 unhealthy).

Healthy Levels

Level 1 (At Their Best): Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative.
Level 2: Self-aware, introspective, on the "search for self," aware of feelings and inner impulses. Sensitive and intuitive both to self and others: gentle, tactful, compassionate.
Level 3: Highly personal, individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. Ironic view of self and life: can be serious and funny, vulnerable and emotionally strong.
Average Levels

Level 4: Take an artistic, romantic orientation to life, creating a beautiful, aesthetic environment to cultivate and prolong personal feelings. Heighten reality through fantasy, passionate feelings, and the imagination.
Level 5: To stay in touch with feelings, they interiorize everything, taking everything personally, but become self-absorbed and introverted, moody and hypersensitive, shy and self-conscious, unable to be spontaneous or to "get out of themselves." Stay withdrawn to protect their self-image and to buy time to sort out feelings.
Level 6: Gradually think that they are different from others, and feel that they are exempt from living as everyone else does. They become melancholy dreamers, disdainful, decadent, and sensual, living in a fantasy world. Self-pity and envy of others leads to self-indulgence, and to becoming increasingly impractical, unproductive, effete, and precious.
Unhealthy Levels

Level 7: When dreams fail, become self-inhibiting and angry at self, depressed and alienated from self and others, blocked and emotionally paralyzed. Ashamed of self, fatigued and unable to function.
Level 8: Tormented by delusional self-contempt, self-reproaches, self-hatred, and morbid thoughts: everything is a source of torment. Blaming others, they drive away anyone who tries to help them.
Level 9: Despairing, feel hopeless and become self-destructive, possibly abusing alcohol or drugs to escape. In the extreme: emotional breakdown or suicide is likely. Generally corresponds to the Avoidant, Depressive, and Narcissistic personality disorders.

(Quoted from http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFour.asp)

Of course, as any other type-model. this is only a model, not the reality. The model is needed to be constrasted with reality. But it does explain some dinamics from artist-type. It is not that want to exclude... is just the need to find individual identity.

Best wishes

 

[autumn]

Jesed....................................................................................................................................thank you. And you are right.

What's funny is that in comparsion to the type 4s, I fit into a lot of different categories. There's a lot of overlap in type in my personality. I've taken that test once or twice, and the highest categories for me are types 5, 6, and 3, tied. But right behind that are types, 4, 2, and 8, represented strongly to mediumly. I've always had a lot of creativity, especially when I was litte, and I have a tendency towards depression that was a lot stronger when I was very young.

Point being- I don't pretend to understand things that I don't understand. Another point - because of all of that overlap in my personality- I don't judge people, either, even if my comments are blunt. This thread hit a nerve with me because I am very sensitive- maybe overly sensitive- to unfair judgments. But, that's my problem, not anyone else's.

 

[mudpie]

I was about to say BRAVO to the post where Bruce admitted he was a bit rude for starting off with a judgement about others, but he erased it, i guess. tsk tsk

 

[bruce_g]

Listener,

I am who I am, and I communicate the way I communicate. I admitted it was a rude way to begin this thread, and it was. I also said to you earlier: “Those to whom it applies can apply it. The others need not concern themselves with it. I could as well have been talking about myself. Let me assure you that I was not excluded.”

BRAVO or tsk tsk, if it makes you feel right or justified. All this talk of my judgmental approach, but yet I am not the one judging here. Anyone who doesn’t fit into status quo thinking is deemed to be a part of “an exclusionary social dynamic”. What hooey.

 

[hilary]

I always said 13 was about creating harmony. LOL. Dear old Yi.

Autumn, I am super-hyper-sensitive about social exclusion - I've been on the outside of the circle all too much, with the people on the inside, if they thought of me at all, not thinking of me as quite real or complete. I fly off the handle at supersonic speeds if I get the feeling of anyone being excluded. I don't get that feeling here.

LiSe says I don't get it, and she's probably right. In any case, I had no business asking questions about Anton, whom I never knew, when I was transferring unresolved thoughts and feelings about someone else entirely. Sorry, LiSe.

I don't feel excluded by 'not getting it' (though I had to give myself a brisk talking-to before I could be sure of that). But if there were a circle forming, we'd both be on its outside; it even looks as though most people would. And that (in my not-inconsiderable experience!) creates a totally different dynamic.

BTW, I won't have time to post for a day or four. So if I go suddenly quiet, it doesn't (necessarily) mean I'm sulking.

 

[mudpie]

BUT WHY DID YOU DELETE THE POST? you renaged on being honest and actually examining your intentions/actions..........that kind of self-observation warranted a bravo, i thought it was brave and honest. Damn! it is not a question of ME feeling right or justified!! It is a question of appreciating someone's honesty and letting down their guard to say whoops, I was arrogant, sorry. It was something I applauded. BUt why did you erase it? arrogance creeped back in...I am not gonna back down, they just dont get it......and to that I say tsk tsk, what a shame

 

[autumn]

Maybe my expression of a "sense of exclusion" is just my inner demon surfacing.