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dropping the second hex when there is one changing line?

modestlearner

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Hi,

I am still very much in the new stages with the Yi, really only working with it on and off for a year. One thing that still perplexes me a bit is judgments that have one changing line. I noticed that on ewald's web site (www.eclecticenergies.com) if you digitally toss the Yi, and it comes up with only one changing line, the second hex is completely dropped. So that, for example, if I received 35.3, the text would include some lines about 35 and then the 3rd line translated, but hexagram 56, the resulting hexagram is dropped.

Why is that?

When I have been reviewing answers from the Yi, no matter how many changing lines I receive, I review both hexagrams for meaning...

Any comments or guidance on this? Does this mean that the resulting hexagram is not considered important in understanding the Yi's answer?

Thank you, modest learner
 

russell

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These rules are similar to the rules given by Gregory Whincup in Rediscovering the I Ching. He doesn’t really explain them either.

—Russell
 

modestlearner

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Any thoughts as to why these gentleman drop the resulting hexagram? Have you tested this approach out? Have you noticed that the resulting hexagram is less consequential in one changing line answers from the Yi?

I am wondering if their thought is: since there is only one changing line which is almost an unchanging hexagram, the current energy sits more with the original hex...

The example I gave, 35.3>56 seems to support a theory like this (and there are a few of theses). I asked when aiding another:

will x return to y? in which Yi responded: 35.3>56.

I found this puzzling. 35 is progress, line 3 "all are in accord. remorse disappears" both of which would suggest a "yes" response to "x will return to y?" If I followed ewald, this would be the end of it. But 56 to me suggests a contradiction to the original hexagram, to which I would still not be able to feel comfortable with saying "yes" to the question to Yi. I have found a few such examples.

Any thoughts?

modestlearner
 
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sooo

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I find no reason to drop anything I receive, regardless of the number of lines. There are also methods where if you receive too many lines (?), drop them and read the ones you haven't gotten (?). I could never understand the reasoning behind anything but reading what I've received and ignoring what I haven't received, but to each their own. Occasionally I find the Fan Yao helpful to consider, but not as a direct answer, more as a way of pointing to relating effects.
 

Trojina

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Any thoughts as to why these gentleman drop the resulting hexagram? Have you tested this approach out? Have you noticed that the resulting hexagram is less consequential in one changing line answers from the Yi?

I am wondering if their thought is: since there is only one changing line which is almost an unchanging hexagram, the current energy sits more with the original hex...

The example I gave, 35.3>56 seems to support a theory like this (and there are a few of theses). I asked when aiding another:

will x return to y? in which Yi responded: 35.3>56.

I found this puzzling. 35 is progress, line 3 "all are in accord. remorse disappears" both of which would suggest a "yes" response to "x will return to y?" If I followed ewald, this would be the end of it. But 56 to me suggests a contradiction to the original hexagram, to which I would still not be able to feel comfortable with saying "yes" to the question to Yi. I have found a few such examples.

Any thoughts?

modestlearner
If i get only one moving line I consider such a strong factor I don't much consider the relating hexagram. When many lines are movng one can almost perceive, at least i do, that they move in order to give you the relating hexagram and indeed interpreting the sentence the two hexagrams make together can give far more guidance than focusing intenly on each line...so maybe 25.2.6>58 can be read as unexpected (25) joy (58) I use that example since it was certainly the sentence that was more relevant than either the 25.2 or the 25.6 in a reading of my own I recall

If one line is moving there has to be a relating hexagram but it really should not be given more weight than the 1 line received. When one line moves it carries much significance.

Thats not to say one completely ignores the relating hexagram, its hard not to take it into account all but I see it there just as a background and the more lines move the more important the relating hexagram becomes IMO.


I never understand why when people on shared readings get say 38.4 and stress about the 41 as relating hex . It doesn't mean 'the future' and its appeared only as a result of one moving line so although it must have a resonance in the answer...(and i am thinking how would 41 resonate with 38.4 ? decreasing opposition i guess) its not the main focus for the answer IMO


having said that its totally a matter of opinion on how you see this, there is no right or wrong way. With one line moving I invariably find I have all I need for the answer. maybe Ewald though this too but i doubt it....I presume he had some other reason

Only way to find out is to ask him. Generally i don't refer to his work at all. i would advise you stick to casting on this site . Also Ewald seems to go off at quite a tangent in translation as far as i can see
 
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sooo

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modestlearner, if I handed you 2 bags of groceries, then handed you 2 additional grapefruits, would you drop the bags of groceries to accept the grapefruits? Would you refuse the grapefruits? Or would you receive them in the bags you were holding? :)
 

rodaki

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another two cents here . .

It doesn't make sense to me to leave out the relating hexagram, although in hindsight there are readings where I can't understand how it figured. I do think that there have been various ways to approach the relation between two hexagrams -some of them are internal, going thru inner dynamics, others 'external' working outside of the proverbial divination box . . Some say that you find your place in the resulting hex. and the primary shows how to make use of the situation, I often find that the second hex. is part of the situation described in the primary.

For example, in 35.3 to 56 you can say that x is the traveller that has the means to repeatedly visit (35.3) y, seeing 35 in terms of 56 -but that doesn't say how x is greeted there or if they are welcomed. Another way to read the relation is to think that x is 35ing (making progress or revisiting) the prospects of traveling (56) . . seeing 56 within 35. Of course there are other ways to read it too . . it all comes down to what makes better sense to the reader -and that often doesn't have to do with introducing foreign rules at all, I think these come when all else fails and we still need to create an answer . .
 

anemos

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Any comments or guidance on this? Does this mean that the resulting hexagram is not considered important in understanding the Yi's answer?

Thank you, modest learner
Hi ML,

I always use the relating hex even when one line is changing. Among other things, its a way , for me, to understand whether Yi and I talk about the same thing. like checking my question.

yes sometimes seems that the one hex contradicts the other but this may occur between the lines too. like if you get 60.1.2 Duh ? !!!!

It maybe a rather simplistic way to explain it, but, to me all components say a story. omitting one or more parts makes another story.
 

anemos

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an example of a reading i got recently with one changing line.

I was worried about a family member that couldn't find them on phone. I asked Yi " what is going on with them ?" and got 2.6>23. It didn't make any sense !!! After some time, late in the day, they appeared and gave me the answer I couldn't figure out. The were at their summer house cleaning the place from the weeds .
 

hopex

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i have just tried this eclectic energies digital casting? is it approved of?
i have been using i ching online and i ching on love by ifate
also interpretations on www.answercult
if anyone feels i err doing this then please let me know thx
 

bradford

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Without saying I support the idea of ignoring the Zhi Gua, there is sense in which it makes sense. The meaning of the Zhi Gua is usually already imbedded in the text of the changing line, as a direction which the change is taking from the original or Ben Gua.
 

anemos

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Without saying I support the idea of ignoring the Zhi Gua, there is sense in which it makes sense. The meaning of the Zhi Gua is usually already imbedded in the text of the changing line, as a direction which the change is taking from the original or Ben Gua.
could you elaborate a bit the underlined Bradford ? do you mean the connection we see clearly between Line 57.5 and 18 is everywhere ?
 

heylise

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This morning I got a reading in which the related hexagram - and even the relating line - was important. There had been a little squabble with a very good friend, but she had to leave before we straightened it out again. Which is usually no problem at all.
But this morning I felt sad and also angry about it. So I asked Yi what to do. I got 54.6, and that made me really sad. Then I looked at the relating hexagram 38, and that was, for me, at least an advice not to "look askance". Accept differences.

But then I read 38.6, the relating line of the relating hex. I know, most people think it is not important, but my question was still not really answered. Maybe the answer was complete enough, but I was not yet. "At first he draws his bow, later he relaxes his bow." Aaaah!

Day feels bright again.
 

Trojina

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i have just tried this eclectic energies digital casting? is it approved of?
i have been using i ching online and i ching on love by ifate
also interpretations on www.answercult
if anyone feels i err doing this then please let me know thx
link doesn't work
 

Trojina

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This morning I got a reading in which the related hexagram - and even the relating line - was important. There had been a little squabble with a very good friend, but she had to leave before we straightened it out again. Which is usually no problem at all.
But this morning I felt sad and also angry about it. So I asked Yi what to do. I got 54.6, and that made me really sad. Then I looked at the relating hexagram 38, and that was, for me, at least an advice not to "look askance". Accept differences.

But then I read 38.6, the relating line of the relating hex. I know, most people think it is not important, but my question was still not really answered. Maybe the answer was complete enough, but I was not yet. "At first he draws his bow, later he relaxes his bow." Aaaah!
Day feels bright again.
With respect I tend see to this as you weren't happy with 54.6 as an answer so you had to look for something you liked a little better ie 38.6. You then took the auspice of 38.6 as your answer not 54.6. I'd argue if 38.6 were your answer you would have cast 38.6.

Moreover i can't understand why you would take the mirror image, of the line you did cast, the fan yao ie almost the opposite of your answer, as the answer over the actual line you did cast :confused:


I don't think the fan yao was meant to be used as the actual answer but just to shed some light as the mirror image on the original line cast ? I think what you've done here is disregard your answer because it didn't suit you and take 38.6 as its more palatable to you...but its not your answer.


54.6 means theres some insincerity around the liason, that perhaps it really holds nothing much of substance...not that you must accept differences becasue it will all come right when you see suspicions were false (38.6)

If anything your example confirms to me people have started to go to the fan yao as the answer when they don't much care for or understand the answer they did get.


I think elsewhere it was discussed perhaps on CC how the fan yao has taken on a life of its own as the bastard child of Brads he can no longer control or some similar imagery

Anyway its his kid though as hes grown up I guess he can do as pleases now...all I'm saying is i can't follow your thinking on that answer. personally i feel it would serve you better to think more about the 54.6 you got, rather than it just making you sad and then looking for another answer. I know the fan yao does often cast light on the original line as akind of reverse image, ie it is what the line you got isn't ,but here you say you specifically took the part about taking the bow and then relaxing as the key to your answer. So how does 54.6 play a part in that image ? Have you ended up taking 38.6 as your answer instead of 54.6 ? I'm interested in how you now see the significance of 54.6 in the answer ? have you disregarded it ?


In the kitchen we have discussed how our own preconceptions or desires influence how we interpret, inevitably...here I think your wish to remain friends and to overlook fundamental differences for the sake of harmony really impacted on your interpretation since 54.6 shows an empty offering. Perhaps when you patch things up after rows it doesn't really go very deep, maybe its better ackowledge that than try to turn it into a 38.6 time which it isn't ?


I think it interesting that you say 54.6 made you sad but then, with relief, 38.6 made you happy. But that statement gives the impression the answers are only there to make you happy rather than give you the truth. I don't think we seek answers just to make us happy. If we want the real answer we have to take the truth of the answer which can initially lead to sadness yes but in the long term it means at least we know whats good for us and what isn't.


Perhasp these squabbles you make up after point to a lack of real depth in the liason (54.6)...or deep inside you aren't that motivated to patch things up ..? and it might be worth exploring that thought rather than taking the shortcut to pain relief in 38.6...which you didn't cast and which also is the very opposite of the answer you did get


If I am understanding the fan yao is like the mirror of the original line then it is not the same as the original line its the reverse image...so you have to maybe consider the reverse image of lowering the bow IMO


I appreciate its your answer so how you understand is likley right for you...but in the context of this thread and the one line discussion etc I can't actually see why 38.6 gives you more a key to the answer than 54.6. Why not ponder on the empty offering in 54.6 and how that offers an insight in to how/why you didn't patch things up before she left...somehow here I've a sense it holds alot more significance than 38.6
 
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heylise

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With respect I tend see to this as you weren't happy with 54.6 as an answer so you had to look for something you liked a little better ie 38.6. You then took the auspice of 38.6 as your answer not 54.6. I'd argue if 38.6 were your answer you would have cast 38.6.
No, I ALWAYS look to the relating hex, and with only one moving line especially to the fanyao, to shed some light on the line I actually got. I was sad, my question was how to solve that – not the relation with my friend, that will get solved the minute I meet her again – but my own feelings. 58.6 made me more sad… so I went to the fayao, it seemed to me that the answer was not meant to make me sadder than I was. I assumed I missed something in the answer.

Moreover i can't understand why you would take the mirror image, of the line you did cast, the fan yao ie almost the opposite of your answer, as the answer over the actual line you did cast

I don't think the fan yao was meant to be used as the actual answer but just to shed some light as the mirror image on the original line cast ? I think what you've done here is disregard your answer because it didn't suit you and take 38.6 as its more palatable to you...but its not your answer.

54.6 means theres some insincerity around the liason, that perhaps it really holds nothing much of substance...not that you must accept differences because it will all come right when you see suspicions were false (38.6)
For clarification of 54.6. No substitute for it. And I had no insecurity about the relation, there was just this one little misunderstanding, and even that was not the problem. I asked what do do about it: about what it did to my feelings for the rest of the morning.

… I know the fan yao does often cast light on the original line as a kind of reverse image, ie it is what the line you got isn't ,but here you say you specifically took the part about taking the bow and then relaxing as the key to your answer. So how does 54.6 play a part in that image ? Have you ended up taking 38.6 as your answer instead of 54.6 ? I'm interested in how you now see the significance of 54.6 in the answer ? have you disregarded it ?
I see the relating hex and the fanyao as images of the situation itself, no solution there, just "where am I, what is this really".

So what it really is, is me drawing my bow without any need for it. Yi tells me how to deal with that situation: 54.6. Now the line I got makes much more sense. There is no basket without substance – unless I make myself believe there is. It is up to me to make sure the basket is full. So I put down my bow and saw what had happened as what it really was: tiny. No empty baskets, on the contrary. Just one tomato in it was rotten, so throw it out and go on.
 

Trojina

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I see the relating hex and the fanyao as images of the situation itself, no solution there, just "where am I, what is this really".

So what it really is, is me drawing my bow without any need for it. Yi tells me how to deal with that situation: 54.6. Now the line I got makes much more sense. There is no basket without substance – unless I make myself believe there is. It is up to me to make sure the basket is full. So I put down my bow and saw what had happened as what it really was: tiny. No empty baskets, on the contrary. Just one tomato in it was rotten, so throw it out and go on.
Well I don't think the fan yao is an image of the situation itself, a reverse image maybe, so it shows 38.6 is what 54.6 is not. Theres no laying aside of bows in 54.6 IMO since it is almost the opposite of 38.6.

You got 54.6 but say there are no empty offerings here at all :confused:

well interpreting is a very personal thing.

My view remains anyway that the main focus of the answer lies in the line cast not the fan yao of the line.

The fan yao can sometimes help a to shed a little light on the answer but it is not the answer for divinatory purposes.
 
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bradford

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could you elaborate a bit the underlined Bradford ? do you mean the connection we see clearly between Line 57.5 and 18 is everywhere ?
That's a good question. It doesn't always help to explain the text like it does in the one you cite, nor do I think it was always a big part of the authors' thought processes in writing the texts (or the parts of them that survive). But I do regard it as a legitimate exercise to look for an implied zhi gua meaning in every changing line because I think it's fundamental to how the Zhouyi works. Besides, it stretcheth the mind in most salubrious ways.
As to the fan yao, I make an effort to use this one mainly to explain the line text, and not the situation I'm in.
 
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sooo

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Without saying I support the idea of ignoring the Zhi Gua, there is sense in which it makes sense. The meaning of the Zhi Gua is usually already imbedded in the text of the changing line, as a direction which the change is taking from the original or Ben Gua.
Have to admit, I never start out to intentionally seek out the Zhi Gua, but your and LiSe's versions make it so convenient, I'll always at least give it a consideration; it's never irrelevant. It's sort of like using a magnifying glass: don't use it to see the big picture but to enlarge the detail of a particle, even that of a principle.

On the 'second hexagram', relating, transition, changing, whatever we're calling it, I subconsciously follow a routine. After glancing over the primary/lines/transition, I begin the again, starting with the transition Gua. As many have said, I too consider it as the contextual field of the reading: this is about that. Then a closer scrutiny of the same cycle. But the actual conscious thought process and resolution seeking really begins at the "second hexagram", and it also returns to it at the end, but sometimes with a different layer of meaning: broader, deeper, more penetrating - which takes care of whatever problem or question is brought before the oracle, at least for the time.

This explains why I (or anyone) can suddenly freely move about after a reading, whereas before I felt bound and unresolved - something changed within me in principle, which liberated me. And I may walk away still not knowing what or how my mood or outlook seems so different, and the problem or attachment looks so much smaller.
 
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bradford

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There's another aspect to training the mind to find relevance in the Zhi Gua especially where it doesn't make sense with the text. If you look at the change as an interpolation between the Ben and Zhi Gua in the direction of the Zhi Gua (like 1.3 is an interpolation between 1 and 2), then you can start to see all changes as a movement between Ben and Zhi, even complex changes involving multiple changing lines. Although relying on your own imagination is a lot fuzzier than reading a text, and the process involves actually understanding the core menings of the two hexagrams that you are moving between, this still may help to resolve conflicts in interpretation when there are more than one changing lines. To be able to imagine yourself between any two gua would be like having your own Yilin.
 

heylise

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Well I don't think the fan yao is an image of the situation itself, a reverse image maybe, so it shows 38.6 is what 54.6 is not. Theres no laying aside of bows in 54.6 IMO since it is almost the opposite of 38.6.
HUH?? I heard many meanings for the relating hex, but this one is new. Context, future, but reverse??
You got 54.6 but say there are no empty offerings here at all
I see every line, positive or negative, as advice. If you do this, then this will be the result. If you do that, then that will be the result. If you offer empty baskets, then there will be no harvest. So don't offer an empty one, fill it!

On the 'second hexagram'.. <snip> As many have said, I too consider it as the contextual field of the reading: this is about that. ... But the actual conscious thought process and resolution seeking really begins at the "second hexagram", and it also returns to it at the end, but sometimes with a different layer of meaning: broader, deeper, more penetrating - which takes care of whatever problem or question is brought before the oracle, at least for the time.

This explains why I (or anyone) can suddenly freely move about after a reading, whereas before I felt bound and unresolved - something changed within me in principle, which liberated me. And I may walk away still not knowing what or how my mood or outlook seems so different, and the problem or attachment looks so much smaller.
:bows:
 

anemos

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That's a good question. It doesn't always help to explain the text like it does in the one you cite, nor do I think it was always a big part of the authors' thought processes in writing the texts (or the parts of them that survive). But I do regard it as a legitimate exercise to look for an implied zhi gua meaning in every changing line because I think it's fundamental to how the Zhouyi works. Besides, it stretcheth the mind in most salubrious ways.
As to the fan yao, I make an effort to use this one mainly to explain the line text, and not the situation I'm in.
thank you for your response.
I have noticed bits of the Zhi Gua and the fan yao in your Rogue river commentaries. What you said earlier made me think i was wrong but now its more clear.
 

anemos

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This explains why I (or anyone) can suddenly freely move about after a reading, whereas before I felt bound and unresolved - something changed within me in principle, which liberated me. And I may walk away still not knowing what or how my mood or outlook seems so different, and the problem or attachment looks so much smaller.
I can relate to that and the swinging between the two hex its the way it works for me most of the times.

Ignoring the second hex, to me, is like trying to play in a sew-saw without another person in the other side of the pole
 

rodaki

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I also see the fan yao as a sort of opposite to the line I receive . . not as where I am or the place I inhabit but how the opposite force in the equilibrium moves or how the situation works beyond me . . sort of like seeing a cloth from the inside out, seeing the details that hold it at the seams or its patterns the other way round . . I find the idea of creating a space amongst two hexagrams where I can discover the movements a fascinating one - a very performative approach which fits the way my mind works- and I also find that the core truth of a reading is the way it triggers a release in me and changes me, bit by bit, towards something fuller . . sometimes this might take time, especially with those answers that go deeper than I find agreeable and there are readings with which I have been living with for a long time and been unravelling their myriad aspects, one by one . .
 

Trojina

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HUH?? I heard many meanings for the relating hex, but this one is new. Context, future, but reverse??

I see every line, positive or negative, as advice. If you do this, then this will be the result. If you do that, then that will be the result. If you offer empty baskets, then there will be no harvest. So don't offer an empty one, fill it!


:bows:
I wasn't talking about the relating hexagram as you can clearly read in the quote of mine you used but the fan yao line in particular. I said it represented an almost reverse or mirror image of the changing line in the primary becasue I thought I had read that from Brad. I thought that was how it was useful...to cast some light on the changing line as a kind of reverse of it...he can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think we would take the fan yao as context or future ....:confused: If you are saying the line 38.6 is the context or future then you have lost me completely.

I'm not sure theres an 'if ' in every answer . Could be I suppose or it can be a statement of 'how it is'. It could be 'this is an empty basket, this offering is insincere' rather than 'don't offer an empty basket'. I thought Yi was oft used for plain predictions like 'will it rain' these are early examples you yourself often quote. I tend to see advice less in answers than pictures of how it is

However I suppose 'don't offer an empty basket' could be said to amount to the same thing as ' insincere offerings produce nothing'
 
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anemos

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There's another aspect to training the mind to find relevance in the Zhi Gua especially where it doesn't make sense with the text. If you look at the change as an interpolation between the Ben and Zhi Gua in the direction of the Zhi Gua (like 1.3 is an interpolation between 1 and 2), then you can start to see all changes as a movement between Ben and Zhi, even complex changes involving multiple changing lines. Although relying on your own imagination is a lot fuzzier than reading a text, and the process involves actually understanding the core menings of the two hexagrams that you are moving between, this still may help to resolve conflicts in interpretation when there are more than one changing lines. To be able to imagine yourself between any two gua would be like having your own Yilin.
that is really interesting but I'm not sure if I understood you well. I gather from your post you use the word interpolation as "calculation of the value of a function between the values already known" (?)

is it possible, if I'm not asking too much to provide an example of how one work on that ? I'm standing between hex 1 and 2 with line 1.3 on hand. do i take into account hex 10 too?
 

bradford

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if I'm not asking too much to provide an example of how one work on that ? I'm standing between hex 1 and 2 with line 1.3 on hand. do i take into account hex 10 too?
Not what I meant. I was suggesting something much simpler, more like doing a meditation. Such as: imagine yourself full or Qian's creative spirit. What is involved in moving from that to Kun's receptive state or no-mind? From full of yourself to full of the Other? For me that would be spending my Qian as though it were finite (or at least today's supply) and then go roll in the grass and giggle.
So in the change I would be somewhere between those two, moved to becoming less full of myself, looking forward to some giggling.
1>2 happens to be a case where there already is a single line to describe the six-line change, although it never says that what it refers to. It reads: See a flock of dragons without a leader. There is a higher order of power that coordinates itself Ziran (spontaneously) in flow (the Mawangdui name for Gua 2). Finding the leaderless state, the at-one-ness of power, is the transition.
 
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