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merlewine said:Next, my first and continuing question is not about the Former Heaven sequence, but about the Later Heaven sequence, and how are we to understand any sequence of those trigrams (2-3-9-7-6-4-1-8) clockwise or counterclockwise. How do these eight trigrams constitute a cycle. I am not referring here to trigrams opposite each other, but the sequence itself. And many books say that the Former Heaven sequence is cyclic.
lightofreason said:with one exception, the King Wen compass reflects the dynamics of five-phase, the exception being on placing mountain at the end of the cycle and so removing it from it position with earth.
merlewine said:My question is would somone explain the cyclic nature of the Later Heaven sequence, which many books point out. That is the question, if you know. I don't. That's why I am asking.
Thanks in advance for any information.
merlewine said:Also, in all of the books I have, people like Stephen Skinner, Derek Walters, and many others are careful to point out that the Former Heaven sequence historically precedes the Later Heaven sequence, thus their names. Please show me where in the literature it is stated that the Later Heaven Sequence is prior. I would appreciate that..
merlewine said:Please show me where in the literature it is stated that the Later Heaven Sequence is prior. I would appreciate that.
There is, indeed, a suggestion that the World of Thought arrangement was not in use during the Han period at all. In the History of the Three Kingdoms a conversation was recorded between Kuan Lo (AD 209-256), a famous geomancer, and his friend Liu Fen. Kuan Lo said:
"I really do not understand why our ancient sages placed Ch'ien at the North-West and K'un are the symbols of Heaven and Earth, the supreme things... How could these be reduced to the position of the other six trigrams? ... How could they occupy side positions?"
As a geomancer, Kuan Lo should have had a full knowledge of the arrangements of the trigrams. The implication here is that the World of Thought sequence (where Ch'ien and K'un are placed at the top and bottom of the arrangement) was unknown to him. A further implication would seem to be that the original logic behind the World of Senses sequence had been forgotten, even at such an early date as the third century AD; otherwise Kuan Lo would have known full well why Ch'ien and K'un were placed in the North-West and South-West. The apparent lack of logic in the arrangement has been much debated. Regrettably, the commentatory material on the sequence is rather confused and unhelpful.
The World of the Senses is said to relate to the real, phenomenal world in which we live; the world perceptible to the senses. By contrast, the World of Thought is said to show the idealized interchange of yang and yin as cosmic principles. The Senses sequence is usually numbered from Chen in a clockwise direction, although it should be pointed out that nowhere in the Ten Wings are numbers actually connected with the individual trigrams. This numbering system has arisen simply from the order in which the trigrams are treated in the Shuo Kua Chuan.
merlewine said:I have been studying various forms of space allotment and reorientation, including traditional feng-shui, but also a special form of Tibetan divination, called the Earth Lords (Sa-Dak), which have never really been presented here in the West. They are similar to what the Chinese call the “Grand Duke,” but with a much more extensive retinue - hundreds. The Earth Lords are the lords of local spaces, serving as protectors of the earth.
Found it!! I was bidding on this on eBay the other day and lost it at
the last minute... I edited the file for a better contrast and also
made a negative version of it that may make it easier to read.
Now, if you notice the sequence you'll think, at first sight, that it
is the King Wen or Later Heaven sequence but it isn't.
If Li is South in the Later Heaven and assuming it is also in the
mirror then we have:
Later Heaven Sequence:
Tibetan Mirror Sequence:
I'll check later (I'm not at home now...) my copy of my Govinda's
Inner Structure of the I Ching to see if it appears there.
Differing from the Early Heaven arrangement, Late Heaven arrangement pairs the opposite energies to interact with each other. Fire and Water are opposite energies as well as governing energies. Therefore, Fire was positioned at the top of the circle and Water at the bottom. Thunder (wood) and Lake (metal) are paired, and Wind (wood) with Heaven (metal). Mountain (earth) and Earth are paired as the harminizing and stabilizing forces.
The Lord (Ti) comes forth in Chen; he regulates in Sun, causes mutual perception in Li, brings about service in K'un, joyful words in Tui, battle in Ch'ien, toil in K'an, and fulfilled words in Ken.
The myriad things come forth in Chen; Chen is in the East. They are regulated in Sun; Sun is in the Southeast. "Regulation" means the purity and perfection of the myriad things. Li is brightness, and the mutual perception of all the myriad things. It is the trigram of the South. The Sage faces South and hears the whole word, ruling while facing the light; this [practice] is taken from this [idea]. K'un is Earth; all the myriad things are nourished in it. Thus it says "brings about service in K'un." Tui is the beginning of autumn, which is what pleases the myriad things. Thus is says "joyful words in Tui." "Doing battle in Ch'ien" is Ch'ien, the trigram of the Northwest. This refers to the yin and yang displacing each other. K'an is water, and is the trigram of true North, the trigram of toil. It is what the myriad things return to -- thus it says "toil in K'an." Ken is the trigram of the Northeast. It is what fulfills the end and fulfills the beginning of the myriad things. Thus it says "fulfilled words in Ken."(122)
merlewine said:I posted another thread, but never got an answer. Let's try here:
Where did the numbering system for the trigram come from. For example, why is "Li" numeral "9,' and so on.
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