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I'm finding it a bit hard to follow what you are saying; when you say "What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7)", there are two sector diagrams with numbers in 'diagram 7', so I am unsure which one you are referring to. Also, the yin/yang axis in the Early and Later Heaven arrangements as illustrated in diagrams 4 and 7 appear to be the same because the taiji symbol is re-inserted over the top of the diagram after the process has been completed(?), so I don't know what you are pointing to.
It may be also important to note that the final yin/yang axes that we see in traditional Early Heaven and Later Heaven diagrams, are all the same. If we look at the axes preserved from the step where the Planet Circle is calibrated to the Lo Shu, we find that the axes are at 90 degrees to one another, just like the Fire-Water axes. The rotations in opposite directions creates this, as a reflected movement of 45, 135, or 225 degrees in opposite directions will always create a 90 degree separation of axes. Any different reflected angles of movement in opposite directions will never allow for this. See attached picture for a full illustration.
All speculation is subjective. The claim that math diagrams and binary maps are non-subjective only makes sense to modern math folks. Clearly you enjoy your perspective and your correspondence is well documented. What it has to do with the King Wen Sequence and specifically its origin is not so clear. You can make a trigram sequence and move it about like a Rubik's cube, but would the ancient Chinese have any interest in such as a way to develop a novel insight into explaining their reality?We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here; planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations.
Sun interacting with water, mysterious gut feelings, and complicated number systems are further from this simple, demonstrable, verifiable world I am putting my theory across in.
Of course, and yet I did say "We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here".All speculation is subjective.
Did you watch the Flash animation I posted? The planets are laid out and numbered according to the classical bagua around the Taiji positioning method before the Lo Shu Magic Square even makes an entrance. The image I posted for frank_r was relative to a small point he was mentioning.your associations do not require any correspondence with trigrams or planets.
Hi Erime,Did you watch the Flash animation I posted? The planets are laid out and numbered according to the classical bagua around the Taiji positioning method before the Lo Shu Magic Square even makes an entrance. The image I posted for frank_r was relative to a small point he was mentioning.
Also, I use the trigrams pasted on to the Early Heaven planet circle to allocate to the Later Heaven planet circle in order to arrive at the Later Heaven trigram sequence, so the use of trigram associations to planets are integral to my method.
Fuxi said:But what is your proof that there must be a correspondence of planets to trigrams to either the Later Heaven or certainly to the King Wen Sequence?
NO!! It does not follow logically at all. The 8 visible bodies would also fit to the Magic Square pairs and to the Taiji and everything else in a similar vein. That you find a nifty way to process YOUR modern notions into YOUR view of the ancient trigram sequences does not mean that the novel insight of the Chou Yi must also follow your animation! Convincing yourself of the wonder of your process does not make it right, just very dear to you.It only follows on from the astral relationships between yin and yang that the trigrams embody a more complex system that Sun/Moon duality, and of course the 8 visible bodies are fit perfectly! Indeed, it begs the question - which came first? The 8 astral bodies or the 8 trigrams?
One could begin with the Lo Shu yin/yang axis calibrations, but this would make the process more complex. After the initial 8 visible astral body circle is formed, and the constellations mansions ruled by the planets focussed on and brought inside the circle, then one has a starting point for either the Former or Later Heaven planet locations formed via the Lo Shu calibration and balancing across the yin/yang passage. If one was to perform the Lo Shu calibrations at the beginning, then one must split the rotating diagrams in two from the start. If one wishes to do things this way, then this can be done - it doesn't alter the method to a degree that changes the outcome, and the profundity of the method still stands.NO!! It does not follow logically at all. The 8 visible bodies would also fit to the Magic Square pairs and to the Taiji and everything else in a similar vein....In the alternative, start with your minor association to the simple number pairs, doesn't that work too?
So what qualities of nature are being reflected exactly and how were they important in ancient China without computerized planetaria? And again, what exactly is the graphical symbolism you are integrating and how does it relate, not to the earlier trigrams and Yang/Yin development of the Earlier Heaven but the different Later Heaven perspective?My method integrates mathematics with graphical symbolism reflecting the qualities of nature.
Rotation, Sine wave, duality between day/night, heaven/earth, Sun/Moon, light/dark, Planets/Elements. All these things seemed to be important in ancient chinese metaphysics, and are the cogs and wheels of my method.So what qualities of nature are being reflected exactly and how were they important in ancient China without computerized planetaria?
The animation should be evidence enough. The main graphical 'tool' is the 9 sectors diagram; 8 sectors placed around a central circular sector. This diagram is present in ancient Chinese astronomy (as well as Sumerian), the bagua arranged around the taichi, and the Lo Shu in the form of the Magic Square. They interact seamlessly via rotation angles, calibrations to the distances from the Sun, and via a yin/yang axis 'channel' that can allow passage across the central circle.what exactly is the graphical symbolism you are integrating and how does it relate, not to the earlier trigrams and Yang/Yin development of the Earlier Heaven but the different Later Heaven perspective?
Yin is anticlockwise, Yang is clockwise. When one is dealing with Tao, balance must always be sought. If one rotates one way, then one must also rotate the other way. Maybe there is a deeper foundation to the process that King Wen was aware of.why does it take the innovation of King Wen to make the difference or in the alternative what was the reasoning for twisting the mechanism one way up through the Shang and another way in the Chou Yi?
I understand the sentiment. Watching one's perspective work out gives a sense of the profound. The philosophical framework of the Pythagorean Tetraktys applied to the matrix of King Wen Sequence hexagrams also yields an added depth in terms of how the placement explains more of the meaning of the individual hexagram and also of its entire set of 10.People will see what they want to see in the sequences and the I-Ching, as you say. I like a straight-forward demonstrable world; the marvels of which can be shared with everyone I meet. I have looked to be as impartial as possible in my method, and let the ancient diagrams and observable phenomena speak for themselves in the most simple and obvious ways possible. It is just the sequence of interactions these diagrams have which govern the profundity of the outcome.
Hallo Erime,Hi Frank - I just wanted to mention quickly that I've been looking in to the King Wen hexagram sequence once again after all this time, and I have found some interesting patterns (mostly independent of the 2 trigram bagua sequences, but the trigram arrangements can be brought to bear in places).
Unfortunately the findings are more ambiguous and not as 'neat' as those I found between the early and later heaven trigram bagua, but they appear profound never-the-less and reveal a hidden symmetry in the whole King Wen sequence which I don't think has been reported by anyone else. I am just compiling my info and I'll be posting again shortly.
Hope you are still interested!
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