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I think i've discovered the origin of the King Wen Sequence

erime

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I have noted 9 'mysteries' in the following steps - actions which seem they have no particular reason, but which may have an explanation in the future (there are probably more than 9 in fact).

All mysteries aside though, you will see that the following steps to reach both the Early Heaven and Later Heaven (King Wen) Sequence Elemental associations are much too far from coincidental to be ignored.

So we begin. If you want to follow this by drawing on paper, I would suggest having to hand the following:

  • Maybe a protractor, ruler, and something to draw circles with if your draughtsmanship isn't too hot.
  • The 'family tree' of how the 8 trigrams are created, beginning with Pure Yang, and finishing with Pure Yin.
  • The eight trigrams of the Early Heaven Sequence and their Yin and Yang expressions arranged in a circle around a Taiji symbol - i.e. Pure Yang at the top, Pure Yin at the bottom.
  • The 5 visible planets Elemental Associations and the Chinese 5 Elements 'Wu Xing' diagram.
  • The order of planets by distance from the Sun.
  • The 3x3 Magic Square or 'Lo Shu'.
  • The eight trigrams arranged in the Later Heaven Sequence.

For the curious (or those who can't be bothered to read through the following, the steps are basically as follows for both the Early Heaven and Later Heaven Sequences (the fact that one goes through the same steps for each sequence kind of hints that it is the right procedure :)):

  1. Create a circle of 8 astral bodies based on the Early Heaven bagua.
  2. Separate the astral bodies from the trigrams.
  3. Throw out any unwanted astral bodies from the circle and fill in with default: Saturn.
  4. Rotate the planet circle according to Lo Shu calibration reference.
  5. Remove planets which are out of sequence with regards to distance from the Sun.
  6. Replace new empty spaces in the circle with next nearest planets to the Sun.
  7. Balance out the Elements of the circle.
  8. Lock the remaining Elements to the trigrams.

So here we go, there are 5 stages: 'Building an Astral Body Circle', 'Arriving at the Wu Xing Cycles', 'Wu Xing Calibration via Lo Shu', 'Arriving at the Early Heaven Sequence Planetary Associations', and 'Arriving at the Later Heaven Sequence'. Please post any questions you may have.

Building an Astral Body Circle

1. In ancient China astrologers worked with a circular diagram of the heavens divided in to 9 sectors (8 directions and 1 central region) in the following way:

"The sky was also divided into Nine Fields, which involved the circumpolar region and eight other divisions. The eight other divisions can be related to eight hexagrams [trigrams?] which appear in the Yi Jing (The Book of Changes)"
Reference

2. The 8 visible astral bodies - the Sun, the Moon, the Earth, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, can be plotted by placing the Taiji in the central circumpolar region, and planets assigned to the various expressions of Yin and Yang that are embodied by the 8 trigrams. The Sun goes to Pure Yang, the Earth goes to Pure Yin, and then the two bright bodies are plotted: Venus goes to Bright Yang, and The Moon goes to Little Yang. After this, the gaps can be 'filled in' by moving around the diagram anti-clockwise and filling in the planets by increasing distance from the Sun until one places Saturn at Little Yin. Once the astral bodies have been plotted in a circle, any associations with the trigrams are dropped, and only the Yin/Yang division between the sectors is recognised (Mystery 1).

" we can say that the oldest Chinese word [for Mars] means "confused fire."
Reference

"The star which is due east is the granary. Jupiter rules it and it belongs to Lu and Wei. There is not any great difficulty in deciding on the reason of this distribution of the planets. Venus is assigned to the most westerly kingdom Ts'in, Jupiter to the east, Mercury to the north, Mars was probably worshipped with special honour in the ^jjtQ country, the southernmost part of the province of Chihli."
Reference

Arriving at the Wu Xing Cycles

3. Bring the focus to the planets only. The planets were apparently referred to by their Elemental names (the basic Element which they seemed to represent), but for now we will still refer to them by their planetary names. In order to have a planet-only focus, we must remove the Sun, Moon, and Earth from the diagram. We can fill in the spaces with Saturn - the Earth element - as this is deemed in Chinese lore to be the 'default' Element - the root of everything, and thus a balanced diagram is created.

4. Analyse the relationships between the Elemental associations of the planets, and you will discover the 5 Elements 'Wu Xing' cycles of creation and destruction that will be reinforced when you discover the Later Heaven Sequence ..um... later ;). Already the situation seems rather profound. Earth is an anomaly between Water and Wood in this Wu Xing arragnement (Mystery 2). However, the water must go through Earth to some degree in order to reach Wood, so this is acceptable. Maybe it was dropped when the cycle was used alone from astrology, in order to balance out the elements properly.

"The ancient Chinese astronomers called the five major planets by the names of the element they were associated with: Venus corresponds to Metal (gold); Jupiter to Wood; Mercury to Water; Mars to Fire; Saturn to Earth. It is said that the position of these planets, along with the positions of the Sun, Moon, any comets in the sky as well as time of birth and Zodiac Sign can determine a person's destiny according to Chinese horoscope."
Reference

Wu Xing Calibration via Lo Shu

5. The 8 directions/sectors and 1 central region diagram can be calibrated with the Lo Shu (3x3 Magic Square )(Mystery 3), which is a grid with a central square around which are located 8 other squares. The number 5 is at the centre of the grid, and other numbers are arranged around it. The version favoured for the I-Ching was with the number 9 in the top middle position and 7 to the middle-right.

6. Each of the 8 sectors used for mapping the planets can be given a number based on how the trigrams are arranged around the Taiji symbol. Beginning at the top with Pure Yang as 1, the numbers are allocated in an anti-clockwise fashion until one reaches Little Yang. At this point, one uses the Taiji symbol as a stepping stone (we will call this the 'Yin/Yang Passage') up to Little Yin, but not without attributing the number 5 to the central Taiji, and continuing on to give Little Yin the number 6. In this way, the diagram begins to resemble the Lo Shu somewhat by placing 8 digits circling the number 5. One finishes by allocating the number 9 to Pure Yin.

7. Comparing the two number grids now; the Taiji number grid, and the Lo Shu, one can see a striking similarity between them. The Lo Shu contains a mirror-image of the Taiji grid numbers involved in the Yin/Yang passage - consecutively from 3 to 7, and involving the number 5 in the middle. This illustrates the axis, or division, between the Yin and Yang sides of each diagram respectively. It may immediately spring to mind that either of the diagrams can be rotated in order to line up the Yin/Yang axes, and this is exactly what we will do next, and using the Wu Xing planet circle we constructed before.

8. Rotate the Planet circle by 135 degrees clockwise in order to match up the Yin/Yang axes indicated by the numbers on the Taiji and Lo Sho diagrams (Mystery 4). You should now have Mars/Fire to the West, and Mercury/Water to the East.

Arriving at the Early Heaven Sequence Planetary Associations

9. While keeping the planets where they are in the 8 sectors, introduce the Sun, Earth, and Moon again by placing them outside of the diagram (Mystery 5)- the Sun along the line in between mercury and Saturn (where it was originally at the beginning), and the Earth/Moon opposite in between Mars and Venus (where they were originally).

10. Remove any of the planets that are out of sequence in order of distance from the Sun - this means removing Saturn from between Mars and Venus, and filling the space with the next nearest planet to the Sun; Venus.

11. Reintroduce the default Taiji trigrams to the sectors of the diagram, including the central Taiji and the default Yin/Yang passage line (Mystery 6). Use the Yin/Yang axis to balance out the diagram. Since there is an imbalance between Jupiter and Venus, we can 'carry over' Jupiter to the Little Yin position via the Yin/Yang Passage, and this balances out the diagram nicely.

"Jupiter is a little strange. It's a little hard to understand,.. Tai Shuei (sp?) is a name for Jupiter. And then they have two Jupiters. They were sort of like modern cosmologists, because they had one Jupiter that they called Tai Shuei (sp?), which is like the twin, the dark body twin of it. They figured it in their computations about where Jupiter was, but you'd never see it."
Reference

12. Lock the trigrams to their planetary associations (Mystery 7) and you now have the Early Heaven Sequence Elements in front of you.


Arriving at the Later Heaven Sequence

13. In order to arrive at the Later Heaven sequence we simply repeat the same steps; 8 through to 11, namely:

  • rotating (this time by 135 degrees anticlockwise to counteract the clockwise motion for the Early Heaven sequence(Mystery 8))
  • removing planets which are out of sequence with regards to distance from the Sun (when the Sun is inserted in it's correct place between Mercury and Saturn)
  • replacing empty spaces with next nearest planets to the Sun
  • balancing out using the default Taiji Yin/Yang Passage imposed on top of the rotated planet circle (while maintaining the same Elemental quantities as in the Early Heaven Sequence)
Finally, there is one additional step to fully complete the Later Heaven sequence, even though most of the work is already done by now:

* Allocate the trigrams from the Early Heaven Sequence. When there is a choice of 2 possible, try and keep Earth trigrams the same as when the Early and Later Heaven sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water Axis (Mystery 9), but change all others.

14. You now have the Later Heaven Sequence in front of you.

PS: Diagrams can be provided upon request, but please give me a little time to finish them off ;).
 

frank_r

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hallo erime,

interesting, you go further with some diagrams and theory. I remember that you made some impressive diagrams before when there was the discussion about the former and heaven sequence. Yes please can you give some diagrams to understand your idea's better.

frank
 

erime

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Hi frank

Heh, yes that was a while ago. I kind of gave up after I spent so much time on it, and then one day I found the attached image which sparked my interest again.

I had found some profound connections before, and so I decided to look a bit deeper.

I'll post the diagrams according to the sections above, beginning with the 'what you need' images.

I hope you can follow the steps properly. It would not surprise me if I am not the first to think of this - maybe someone in China not yet published in the West has been writing about it already - the method is not that ingenious really.

Best wishes

Erime
 

erime

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What you need to begin

Please find the following attached:

  • The 'family tree' of how the 8 trigrams are created, beginning with Pure Yang, and finishing with Pure Yin.
  • The eight trigrams of the Early Heaven Sequence and their Yin and Yang expressions arranged in a circle around a Taiji symbol - i.e. Pure Yang at the top, Pure Yin at the bottom.
  • The 5 visible planets Elemental Associations and the Chinese 5 Elements 'Wu Xing' diagram.
  • The 3x3 Magic Square or 'Lo Shu'.
  • The eight trigrams arranged in the Later Heaven Sequence.

I can only upload 5 pics per post, so the order of visible celestial bodies from the Sun are as follows:

Sun, Mercury, Venus, Moon, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. You can find an online picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UpdatedPlanets2006.jpg

:bows:
 

erime

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Building a Celestial Body Circle

1. In ancient China astrologers worked with a circular diagram of the heavens divided in to 9 sectors (8 directions and 1 central region) in the following way:

"The sky was also divided into Nine Fields, which involved the circumpolar region and eight other divisions. The eight other divisions can be related to eight hexagrams [trigrams?] which appear in the Yi Jing (The Book of Changes)"

2. a) The 8 visible astral bodies - the Sun, the Moon, the Earth, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, can be plotted by placing the Taiji in the central circumpolar region, and planets assigned to the various expressions of Yin and Yang that are embodied by the 8 trigrams. The Sun goes to Pure Yang, the Earth goes to Pure Yin, and then the two bright bodies are plotted: Venus goes to Bright Yang, and The Moon goes to Little Yang. b) After this, the gaps can be 'filled in' by moving around the diagram anti-clockwise and filling in the planets by increasing distance from the Sun until one places Saturn at Little Yin. Once the astral bodies have been plotted in a circle, any associations with the trigrams are dropped, and only the Yin/Yang division between the sectors is recognised.
 

erime

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Arriving at the Wu Xing Cycles

3. a) Bring the focus to the planets only. The planets were apparently referred to by their Elemental names (the basic Element which they seemed to represent), but for now we will still refer to them by their planetary names. In order to have a planet-only focus, we must remove the Sun, Moon, and Earth from the diagram. b) We can fill in the spaces with Saturn - the Earth element - as this is deemed in Chinese lore to be the 'default' Element - the root of everything, and thus a balanced diagram is created.

4. Analyse the relationships between the Elemental associations of the planets, and you will discover the 5 Elements 'Wu Xing' cycles of creation and destruction Already the situation seems rather profound. Earth is an anomaly between Water and Wood in this Wu Xing arragnement; something also present in the Later Heaven Sequence Wu Xing Cycle. However, the water must go through Earth to some degree in order to reach Wood, so this is acceptable. Maybe it was dropped when the cycle was used alone from astrology, in order to balance out the elements properly.
 

frank_r

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hallo erime,

thanks for the diagrams, yes till now I can follow you without problems.

frank
 

erime

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Wu Xing Calibration via Lo Shu

5. The 8 directions/sectors and 1 central region diagram can be calibrated with the Lo Shu (3x3 Magic Square ), which is a grid with a central square around which are located 8 other squares. The number 5 is at the centre of the grid, and other numbers are arranged around it. The version favoured for the I-Ching was with the number 9 in the top middle position and 7 to the middle-right.

6. Each of the 8 sectors used for mapping the planets can be given a number based on how the trigrams are arranged around the Taiji symbol. Beginning at the top with Pure Yang as 1, the numbers are allocated in an anti-clockwise fashion until one reaches Little Yang. At this point, one uses the Taiji symbol as a stepping stone (we will call this the 'Yin/Yang Passage') up to Little Yin, but not without attributing the number 5 to the central Taiji, and continuing on to give Little Yin the number 6. In this way, the diagram begins to resemble the Lo Shu somewhat by placing 8 digits circling the number 5. One finishes by allocating the number 9 to Pure Yin.

7. Comparing the two number grids now; the Taiji number grid, and the Lo Shu, one can see a striking similarity between them. The Lo Shu contains a mirror-image of the Taiji grid numbers involved in the Yin/Yang passage - consecutively from 3 to 7, and involving the number 5 in the middle. This illustrates the axis, or division, between the Yin and Yang sides of each diagram respectively. It may immediately spring to mind that either of the diagrams can be rotated in order to line up the Yin/Yang axes, and this is exactly what we will do next, and using the Wu Xing planet circle we constructed before.

8. Rotate the Planet circle by 135 degrees clockwise in order to match up the Yin/Yang axes indicated by the numbers on the Taiji and Lo Sho diagrams. You should now have Mars/Fire to the West, and Mercury/Water to the East.
 

erime

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Arriving at the Early Heaven Sequence Planetary Associations

9. While keeping the planets where they are in the 8 sectors, introduce the Sun, Earth, and Moon again by placing them outside of the diagram - the Sun along the line in between mercury and Saturn (where it was originally at the beginning), and the Earth/Moon opposite in between Mars and Venus (where they were originally).

10. a) Remove any of the planets that are out of sequence in order of distance from the Sun - this means removing Saturn from between Mars and Venus, and b) filling the space with the next nearest planet to the Sun; Venus.

11. a) Reintroduce the default Taiji trigrams to the sectors of the diagram, including the central Taiji and the default Yin/Yang passage line. b) Use the Yin/Yang axis to balance out the diagram. Since there is an imbalance between Jupiter and Venus, we can 'carry over' Jupiter to the Little Yin position via the Yin/Yang Passage, and this balances out the diagram nicely.

12. Lock the trigrams to their planetary associations and you now have the Early Heaven Sequence Elements in front of you.
 

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Arriving at the Later Heaven Sequence

13. In order to arrive at the Later Heaven sequence we simply repeat the same steps; 8 through to 11, namely:

a) rotating the planet/Wu Xing circle(this time by 135 degrees anticlockwise to counteract the clockwise motion for the Early Heaven sequence)
b) removing planets which are out of sequence with regards to distance from the Sun (when the Sun is inserted in it's correct place between Mercury and Saturn)
c) replacing empty spaces with next nearest planets to the Sun
d) balancing out using the default Taiji Yin/Yang Passage imposed on top of the rotated planet circle (while maintaining the same Elemental quantities as in the Early Heaven Sequence)

Finally, there is one additional step to fully complete the Later Heaven sequence, even though most of the work is already done by now:

e) Allocate the trigrams from the Early Heaven Sequence. When there is a choice of 2 possible, try and keep Earth trigrams the same as when the Early and Later Heaven sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water Axis, but change all others.

14. You now have the Later Heaven Sequence in front of you.
 

erime

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The Mysteries of the Method

Here are the 9 'Mysteries' of the above method summarized, with some initial thoughts on what their meaning could be. This is where I would appreciate any ideas, reflections, or knowledge from forum members - wher things basically get interesting :).

Mystery 1: Once the astral bodies have been plotted in a circle, any associations with the trigrams are dropped, and only the Yin/Yang division between the sectors is recognised.

This remaining Yin/Yang division that forms the 'Yin/Yang Passage' for the numbers to be allocated to the bagua positions appears to be of more significance than the the gradations of Yin/Yang manifestation around the Taiji.

Mystery 2: Earth is an anomaly between Water and Wood in the 8 sector plotted Wu Xing arrangement.

The water must go through Earth to some degree in order to reach Wood (in nature), so this can be given a logical foundation. Maybe the extra Earth was dropped when the cycle was used alone from astronomy, in order to balance out the elements properly.

Mystery 3: The 8 directions/sectors and 1 central region diagram can be calibrated with the Lo Shu (3x3 Magic Square ).

Why use the Lo Shu to calibrate the sectors? - Is it because the Lo Shu has a profound equation locked within it that gives the model some kind of link to the 'fundamental mathematics' of the Tao/universe?

Mystery 4: Rotate the Planet circle by 135 degrees clockwise in order to match up the Yin/Yang axes indicated by the numbers on the Taiji and Lo Sho diagrams.

Why rotate? And why this specific angle? Is this rotation relative to some movement of the stars as they move in the heavens? Why is this a logical step?

Mystery 5: While keeping the planets where they are in the 8 sectors, introduce the Sun, Earth, and Moon again by placing them outside of the diagram.

This seems to suggest that a new astronomical 'reading' is being taken, requiring the Sun, Earth, and Moon to be used as a kind of benchmark.

Here Wikipedia says:
"...traditional Yin and Yang philosophy. The interrelationships of this philosophy were described by Fuxi in the following way:
The Limitless (Wuji) produces the delimited, and this is the Absolute (Taiji)
The Taiji produces two forms, named yin and yang
The two forms produce four phenomena, named lesser yang, great yang (taiyang also means the Sun), lesser yin, great yin (taiyin also means the Moon)."
So it seems that in my formation of the Planet Circle, my allocation of the Moon to Little Yang may have been wrong - maybe it should have swapped places with the planet Earth so that it can be in a Yin location. Consequently, this would make no difference to the general procedure, anyway, because both the Moon and Earth are removed along with the Sun to leave the 5 visible planets. Fuxi's comments show us clearly the role that the Sun and Moon play with regards to the bagua in general, and thus the link with Celestial Bodies as a phenomena. Reintroducing the Sun and Moon outside of the 5 visible planets sequence may be hinting at a system using nested concentric annotated circles - something which has been popular in Chinese culture when one considers the carved spheres within spheres.

Mystery 6: Reintroduce the default Taiji trigrams to the sectors of the diagram, including the central Taiji and the default Yin/Yang passage line.

This appears to infer that the gradients of Yin/Yang relative to the default Taiji position now have some importance within the process. At first it was the Yin/Yang Passage axis, but now it is all about how much yin and yang are present relative to the now rotated and balanced positions of the Planets/Elements. Why?

Mystery 7: Lock the reintroduced default Taiji trigrams to their planetary associations (which have been rotated and balanced).

Why is there not a flexibility of interaction between the Elements and the Bagua - like the planets moving through the fixed Bagua sectors akin to Western Astrological 'Houses'? The shuffling of the bagua from the Early Heaven into the Later Heaven Sequence positions shows that the planets are fixed to their Early Heaven bagua associations, even though there seems to have been some dislocation at the beginning of the Later Heaven formation process when the Planet Circle is rotated along with the Taiji. The bagua associations that could be atributed upon creating the Planet Circle were not carried around with the Planets/Elements as they rotated.

Mystery 8: For the Later Heaven Sequence, this time rotate by 135 degrees anticlockwise to calibrate with the Lo Shu axis, in order to counteract the previous clockwise motion for the Early Heaven sequence.

The balancing, counteracting movement seems to make sense because we must always balance Yin and Yang. However, this suggests that the rotation of the Planet Circle when calibrated with the Lo Shu is not always following the movement of the heavens as is caused by the rotation of our planet. It appears that the Planet Circle rotation may have it's root in a more abstract procedure. It may be interesting to note that in Feng Shui, as a rule, Yang moves in a clockwise direction and Yin moves in an anti-clockwise direction. This means that we could say the Early Heaven's calibration was Yang, and the Later Heaven calibration was Yin.

Mystery 9: When allocating the trigrams from the Early Heaven Sequence to the Later Heaven Elements, there is sometimes a choice of 2 possible trigrams to allocate, so one must keep Earth trigrams the same as when the Early and Later Heaven sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water Axis, but all others must change from any such calibrated correspondences.

Why should Earth trigram associations remain the same when the Sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water axis, but all other trigram associations always change when ever there is a reflection between the Early and Later Heaven Sequences? The Fire (離Li 火 Fire) and Water (坎Kan 水 Water)trigrams of course remain the same, and so does the calibrated Earth (艮Gen 山 Mountain) Element trigram. What is significant about this is that, out of the 8 bagua trigrams, 2 of these 3 relate directly to the Wu Xing Elements by way of their meanings; the others are: 兌Dui 泽 Lake, 乾Qian 天 Heaven, 坤Kun 地 Earth, 震Zhen 雷 Thunder, and 巽Xun 風 Wind. One other Wu Xing Element; Earth, is present in the bagua: 坤Kun 地 Earth, but in the Later Heaven Sequence this has been swapped across the Yin/Yang Passage - was this a 'balancing out' step taken when allocating the trigrams? - Created to ensure that Fire and Water were in fact the only 'locked' trigram meaning and Element/Planet combination present between the Early and Heaven Sequences ?

If, when allocating the trigrams from the Early Heaven to the later Heaven Sequence, one used the same rule of changing any calibrated trigram correspondences to it's possible counterpart, then 艮Gen 山 Mountain would have been changed to the other Earth Element trigram 坤Kun 地 Earth. This would have created an apparent imbalance with regards to the Elemental positions when the trigram meanings are taken in to consideration - as if the trigram meanings outside of any planetary Element associations hold value and can give extra weight to the overall Wu Xing Element balance in the Later Heaven Sequence.

Could the three raw Elements allocated to the trigrams before planetary associations have been created be rooted in some different origin to the heavens? Why have Wood and Metal been left out of these pre-planet trigram associations? It is interesting to note that: "The Chândogya Upanisad contains the earliest Indian view of the elements. There are three: 1) fire (agni), 2) water (ap), & 3) earth (prithivi). These emanate in sequence from each other. Fire is associated with oil, butter, and fat, while earth is associated with all other kinds of food. Each, as food, gives rise to three bodily subdivisions: Fire into bone, marrow, and speech; water into urine, blood, and prâna (breath); and earth into faeces, flesh, and mind. ...

Later other elements are added. Fire itself comes to be seen as emanating from air (vâyu), which is later seen to emanate from "aether" (âkâsha). These are similar enough to the Greek elements, and their introduction occurs late enough, that Greek influence cannot be discounted. " THE GREEK, INDIAN, & CHINESE ELEMENTS. So the early Indian Elements model shares the isolated Fire, Water, and Earth with the basic bagua trigram associations - a common link?

Is there any profundity in the Sun and Mercury remaining in the same calibrated locations between the Early Heaven and Later Heaven Sequences as represented by the Fire-Water axis in both? What about the metaphysical opposition betwen Fire and Water? - Indeed, this opposition is unified via meditation practice, as is often mentioned in the chinese secular meditation manual attributed to the immortal Lu Dongbin: 'The Secret of the Golden Flower'. The alchemical marriage is the union between Fire and Water effected by meditation. In the 'Secret of the Golden Flower', "the poetic imagery essentially conveys ideas and perceptions better suited to imagining than reasoning, with the hope that in time a convergence of imagery and reason will take place in a manner that is informative." Such was the way in those times, as the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching says:

"The way that becomes a way
is not the Immortal Way
the name that becomes a name
is not the Immortal Name
the maiden of Heaven and Earth has no name
the mother of all things has a name
thus in innocence we see the beginning
in passion we see the end, two different names
for one and the same
the one we call dark
the dark beyond dark
the door to all beginnings."

- Lao-Tzu, TaoTeChing (translated by Red Pine).

It seems that due to the essence of truth being beyond 'names', one must be ambiguous when describing worlds beyond mundane analysis, lest someone thinks the description is an exact representation of the territory described - the TaoTeChing seems to infer it is best to remain innocent and go on instinct, uniting duality while controlling the passions. From a Tarot card perspective, this alchemy is present in the Temperance Card; An angel (often female or genderless), a pool or river of water. Two cups or beakers, a fluid flowing between them. "How can you mix fire and water?" the Fool whispers. Never pausing the Angel answers, "You must have the right vessels and the right proportions." The Fool watches with wonder. "Can this be done with all opposites?" he asks. "Indeed," the Angel replies, "Any oppositions, fire and water, man and woman, thesis and anti-thesis, can be made to harmonize. It is only a lack of will and a disbelief in the possibility of unity that keeps opposites, opposite." And that is when the Fool begins to understand that he is the one who is keeping his universe in twain, holding life/death, material world and spiritual world separate. In him, the two could merge, as in the vessels that the Angel uses to pour the elements, one to the other. All it takes, the Fool realizes, is the right proportions....and the right vessel. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

So how is anyone getting along with the above main procedure? Frank? Any problems?
 

frank_r

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Hallo erime,

I finally took the time the study your theorie. It's really fascinating what you are doing. I think it's quit complicated but I understand what you are doing. I always try to make it practical but till now I don't know how. But I know this will happen in the future.
But I also saw some interesting points with mystery 8; you are writing why are these rotations 135 degrees?
What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7). you see that in the Lo Shu they have the same angle as the Yin- Yang axis(diagram 6)
And in the early Heaven Bagua the Numbers 1 and 2 and 8 and 9 of the early Heaven Bagua(Diagram 7) have the same yin-yang axis as in the Later Heaven Sequence Element cycle(diagram 4). This is underlining the connection between these two.
 
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fkegan

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Hi Erime,
I prefer to deal with premises since that simplifies conclusions.
Are the Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven arrangements arising from the same anything? I do not believe so, for me they are completely separate developments based upon totally differing premises.

Is the notion of Yang/Yin fundamental to all things Yi? That implies that the trigrams, hexagrams and Chou Yi grow out of Yin and Yang lines as components. However, the beauty of the King Wen Sequence (and the Later Heaven arrangement) is that the meaning of the entire gua comes first and foremost. Meaning from image symbol separate from component graphical elements--that is a great innovation.

The Earlier Heaven pattern has a basis in all Yang and all Yang, but the Later Heaven shows no such bias. This implies they are built from different fundamentals not the simple application of the same process to churn out further iterations.

What is the vital importance and foundational role of the magic square of 15? Is mathematical patterns the source of the Chou Yi? Why would it?

The question moves from theoretical to practical since the King Wen Sequence can be explained in terms of the meaning of the gua without any reference to either number patterns or planetary associations or Yang/Yin notions . It can be explained in terms of Chinese philosophy and counting as sets of 10 hexagrams with the first being the overview of the entire set. The result is not just a replication of diagrams, but sophisticated philosophical analysis of the meaning of the hexagrams as a whole.

The Later Heaven arrangement can also be explained from the meaning of the trigrams represented in their associations (e.g. Thunder and Lake as beginning and final state of the water cycle, Sun and water as top and bottom of our world, etc).

This meaning based approach dovetails with other systems of the ancient world and requires no mysteries a benefit in light of the philosophy of William of Ockham (or in Latin, Occam's razor).

Frank Kegan
 

erime

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frank_r

I'm finding it a bit hard to follow what you are saying; when you say "What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7)", there are two sector diagrams with numbers in 'diagram 7', so I am unsure which one you are referring to. Also, the yin/yang axis in the Early and Later Heaven arrangements as illustrated in diagrams 4 and 7 appear to be the same because the taiji symbol is re-inserted over the top of the diagram after the process has been completed(?), so I don't know what you are pointing to.

It may be also important to note that the final yin/yang axes that we see in traditional Early Heaven and Later Heaven diagrams, are all the same. If we look at the axes preserved from the step where the Planet Circle is calibrated to the Lo Shu, we find that the axes are at 90 degrees to one another, just like the Fire-Water axes. The rotations in opposite directions creates this, as a reflected movement of 45, 135, or 225 degrees in opposite directions will always create a 90 degree separation of axes. Any different reflected angles of movement in opposite directions will never allow for this. See attached picture for a full illustration.

fkegan

We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here; planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations.

Sun interacting with water, mysterious gut feelings, and complicated number systems are further from this simple, demonstrable, verifiable world I am putting my theory across in.
 

frank_r

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frank_r

I'm finding it a bit hard to follow what you are saying; when you say "What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7)", there are two sector diagrams with numbers in 'diagram 7', so I am unsure which one you are referring to. Also, the yin/yang axis in the Early and Later Heaven arrangements as illustrated in diagrams 4 and 7 appear to be the same because the taiji symbol is re-inserted over the top of the diagram after the process has been completed(?), so I don't know what you are pointing to.

It may be also important to note that the final yin/yang axes that we see in traditional Early Heaven and Later Heaven diagrams, are all the same. If we look at the axes preserved from the step where the Planet Circle is calibrated to the Lo Shu, we find that the axes are at 90 degrees to one another, just like the Fire-Water axes. The rotations in opposite directions creates this, as a reflected movement of 45, 135, or 225 degrees in opposite directions will always create a 90 degree separation of axes. Any different reflected angles of movement in opposite directions will never allow for this. See attached picture for a full illustration.
Hallo Erime,

What I'm trying to say is that in the diagram 7, looking both to 1-2 and 8-9(to the numbers in both former Heaven as Lo Shu), drawing a line through 1-2 and 8-9, in the Early heaven bagua you have the axis as in diagram 4(the later Heaven sequence Element cycle) and drawing a line through 1-2 8-9 in the Lo Shu you have the yin-yang axis as in the former Heaven sequence(diagram 6).

Frank
 

fkegan

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We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here; planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations.

Sun interacting with water, mysterious gut feelings, and complicated number systems are further from this simple, demonstrable, verifiable world I am putting my theory across in.
All speculation is subjective. The claim that math diagrams and binary maps are non-subjective only makes sense to modern math folks. Clearly you enjoy your perspective and your correspondence is well documented. What it has to do with the King Wen Sequence and specifically its origin is not so clear. You can make a trigram sequence and move it about like a Rubik's cube, but would the ancient Chinese have any interest in such as a way to develop a novel insight into explaining their reality?

The Sun interacting with the Planet Earth is the basis of the Water Cycle which controls all weather and thus crops and hurricanes. The modern Western notion that such can be ignored with our fossil fuel technology is being put to the test these very days. The non-subjective nature of modern views is becoming less and less tenable. Better to base your work on your own subjective work and how it corresponds well in your view. That King Wen must have followed your same footsteps is a bit of a stretch.

What are the non-subjective phenomena involved in the creation of the KWS? It appears as the work of a single person completed by his son and after that known for millennia through its power as an oracle. Many scholars deny there is any meaning to the sequence since they can not explain it from their literature. Others insist it must arise from earlier notions of trigram arrangements or mathematical patterns.

I understand your correspondence of the trigram sequence to the magic square. I don't see how that expands to explain the whole King Wen Sequence.

Frank
 

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All speculation is subjective.
Of course, and yet I did say "We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here".

The 'speculation' you are referring to are the distances between planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations that I mentioned following that sentence.

If you want to reduce these things to speculation, and look in to the cognitive foundations behind perceived distances between objects, mathematics, and binary duality, then it seems a meditative tradition would perhaps be more suitable.

It seems you are already perceiving distances between broken and unbroken lines, using tables to create hexagrams for readings, and attributing yin/yang correspondences to yarrow stalks or coins, so I am taking it that these phenomena are beyond "speculation" in your world, and they are the phenomena I have used within my theory to show how the Later Heaven sequence has been formed.
 

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Hi Erime,
My remarks were based upon the detail that your associations do not require any correspondence with trigrams or planets. They can be explained from just the 4 pairs of numbers 1-9, 2-8, 3-7 and 4-6 which each add to 10 (leaving the central 5 odd-number out) which is the basis for the Magic Square. The most recent diagram you attach to your post shows your explanation involves simply rotating those pairs about. However, there is not indication that any trigram, any planet or anything inherent to the Yi is determined by or arising from the number pairs of digits 1-9.

Having a simpler explanation for your magic insight, which involves only number tricks and nothing about the Yi, King Wen Sequence or Later Heaven requires that your arguments be grounded into something connected to the Yi.

Frank
 

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your associations do not require any correspondence with trigrams or planets.
Did you watch the Flash animation I posted? The planets are laid out and numbered according to the classical bagua around the Taiji positioning method before the Lo Shu Magic Square even makes an entrance. The image I posted for frank_r was relative to a small point he was mentioning.

Also, I use the trigrams pasted on to the Early Heaven planet circle to allocate to the Later Heaven planet circle in order to arrive at the Later Heaven trigram sequence, so the use of trigram associations to planets are integral to my method.
 
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fkegan

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Is the Chou Yi really a computer game tranported back into history?

Did you watch the Flash animation I posted? The planets are laid out and numbered according to the classical bagua around the Taiji positioning method before the Lo Shu Magic Square even makes an entrance. The image I posted for frank_r was relative to a small point he was mentioning.

Also, I use the trigrams pasted on to the Early Heaven planet circle to allocate to the Later Heaven planet circle in order to arrive at the Later Heaven trigram sequence, so the use of trigram associations to planets are integral to my method.
Hi Erime,
But what is your proof that there must be a correspondence of planets to trigrams to either the Later Heaven or certainly to the King Wen Sequence? If one, such as me, says there is a totally new insight involved in the KWS which has no essential or original connection to any trigram sequence or planetary numbering your system becomes only number pairs dressed up with possible though not necessary trigram or planetary connections.

Or in the alternative, if the King Wen Sequence arose from a trigram series tied to observation of the mean daily motion of celestial bodies (the traditional form of your planetary distances) why isn't there any indication or artifact of that connection anywhere in the Chou Yi, the artifacts from tombs or the millennia of commentary upon the Yi?

If your insight and animation can be explained by number pair tricks, which could be associated with a trigram sequence or could be correlated to planetary order, but also could be fully explained as just the general Chinese philosophical interest in balance of extremes and orientation to either sequence or cardinal points, doesn't Ockham's razor cut deeply in favor of seeing the minor point of the Magic Square as the only relevant point to your insight?

The animation, like much of your reasoning, is great contemporary work in modern mindset. However, the chances that 1100 BCE Chinese insight is at core modern Rubik's cube or computer thinking transposed back into ancient times are nil though that would follow recent TV show plot lines. That these notions that current belief is Absolute Truth is being limited by postmodern deconstruction of modern physics and Relativity/Quantum beliefs born in the early years of the 20th century and unable to accommodate fully the later Big Bang Theory.

The association of your insights to the Magic Square is far more interesting long term. It doesn't say anything about the origin of the KWS, but it does show how ancient arithmetic principles (we call it number theory now) would be used to play with the magical aspects that can be derived from (not give rise to) the new insights of the KWS.

Frank
 

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But what is your proof that there must be a correspondence of planets to trigrams to either the Later Heaven or certainly to the King Wen Sequence?
Fuxi said:

"The Taiji produces two forms, named yin and yang.
The two forms produce four phenomena, named lesser yang, great yang (taiyang also means the Sun), lesser yin, great yin (taiyin also means the Moon).
The four phenomena act on the eight trigrams (ba gua), eight eights are sixty-four hexagrams."

It is not a secret that yin and yang have attributable to the Moon and Sun respectively for thousands of years. When the Sun and Moon occupy the Pure Yang and Pure Yin positions in the Astral Body circle created around the Taiji at the beginning of the animation, the other visible astral bodies fit in between in order of distance from the Sun - Hmmmm!

It only follows on from the astral relationships between yin and yang that the trigrams embody a more complex system that Sun/Moon duality, and of course the 8 visible bodies are fit perfectly! Indeed, it begs the question - which came first? The 8 astral bodies or the 8 trigrams? ;)

The Former Heaven Trigrams associated with planets give rise to the Later Heaven sequence via my method.

Prof. Thubten Puntsok on his website The origins of Tibetan astrology says:

"Elemental Astrology or Jungtsi is the oldest field of knowledge originating in Tibet. It mainly uses three kinds of symbols: the 8 parka or trigrams, the 9 mewa or numbers and the 12 animal signs. The various combinations of these three symbols with the five elements of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, is the framework for astrological calculations. The parka [bagua] are the oldest astrological symbols, while the mewa, the numbers and the animal signs are based on the trigrams. "

:bows:
 

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The Devil is in the details

Hi Ermine,
Thank you for explaining your process. Fu Xi and the 8 trigrams built from Yang and Yin lines are ancient compared to the Chou Yi. Your argument would claim that there was not novel insight with original thinking upon the graphic forms of the gua, trigrams and hexagrams. This is pretty much the view of Lienshan that all is from the Shang and her trigram sequences, without planets do indeed fit most or even almost all of the KWS.

However, they don't fit 100% and the new insight of the Chou Yi was recognized quickly as a totally different use of the hexagrams with a different basis. The connection to the astral bodies you assume is logically weak, especially in light of the alternative that it is just number pairs as the basis and they can be associated to anything as convenient.

It only follows on from the astral relationships between yin and yang that the trigrams embody a more complex system that Sun/Moon duality, and of course the 8 visible bodies are fit perfectly! Indeed, it begs the question - which came first? The 8 astral bodies or the 8 trigrams?
NO!!:eek: It does not follow logically at all. The 8 visible bodies would also fit to the Magic Square pairs and to the Taiji and everything else in a similar vein. That you find a nifty way to process YOUR modern notions into YOUR view of the ancient trigram sequences does not mean that the novel insight of the Chou Yi must also follow your animation! Convincing yourself of the wonder of your process does not make it right, just very dear to you.

In the alternative, start with your minor association to the simple number pairs, doesn't that work too? Without all the mystery and drama.

Frank
 

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NO!! It does not follow logically at all. The 8 visible bodies would also fit to the Magic Square pairs and to the Taiji and everything else in a similar vein....In the alternative, start with your minor association to the simple number pairs, doesn't that work too?
One could begin with the Lo Shu yin/yang axis calibrations, but this would make the process more complex. After the initial 8 visible astral body circle is formed, and the constellations mansions ruled by the planets focussed on and brought inside the circle, then one has a starting point for either the Former or Later Heaven planet locations formed via the Lo Shu calibration and balancing across the yin/yang passage. If one was to perform the Lo Shu calibrations at the beginning, then one must split the rotating diagrams in two from the start. If one wishes to do things this way, then this can be done - it doesn't alter the method to a degree that changes the outcome, and the profundity of the method still stands.

It is important to note that the 8 visible astral body circle has a differing number system more like a clock numbered anticlockwise indicating order of distance from the Sun. Number associations of the planets change during the process, as one's focus shifts from distance from the Sun to the dynamics of Taiji; back and forth twice during the process. This I have mentioned before as a dualistic flow between a quantitative and qualitative calibration of the planets to the most simple models of nature - distances (quantitative) and flow (qualitative).

As such, there are no constant numbers allocated to planets within my method, allowing for a simply numeric manipulation. It is an interaction between the planets arranged in a smooth circle, with the S-shaped flow of the Taiji within the diagram that allows for the result to be arrived at - quite literally a circle interacting with a sine wave and the numbers allocated according to either. My method integrates mathematics with graphical symbolism reflecting the qualities of nature.
 

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Hi Erime,
Every time you explain your perspective in words you display more of what your process is exactly. I congratulate you on your work which comes off far better explained in words than just as an animation to watch.

My method integrates mathematics with graphical symbolism reflecting the qualities of nature.
So what qualities of nature are being reflected exactly and how were they important in ancient China without computerized planetaria? And again, what exactly is the graphical symbolism you are integrating and how does it relate, not to the earlier trigrams and Yang/Yin development of the Earlier Heaven but the different Later Heaven perspective?

You seem to intend that both Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven are minor variants of this planetary-taiji process. If so, why does it take the innovation of King Wen to make the difference or in the alternative what was the reasoning for twisting the mechanism one way up through the Shang and another way in the Chou Yi?

I also wish to thank you for drawing out from me a concise explanation of the issues of my own explanation of the King Wen Sequence in this exchange. Now folks have access to both and can develop their own upon our shoulders.

Frank
 

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So what qualities of nature are being reflected exactly and how were they important in ancient China without computerized planetaria?
Rotation, Sine wave, duality between day/night, heaven/earth, Sun/Moon, light/dark, Planets/Elements. All these things seemed to be important in ancient chinese metaphysics, and are the cogs and wheels of my method.

what exactly is the graphical symbolism you are integrating and how does it relate, not to the earlier trigrams and Yang/Yin development of the Earlier Heaven but the different Later Heaven perspective?
The animation should be evidence enough. The main graphical 'tool' is the 9 sectors diagram; 8 sectors placed around a central circular sector. This diagram is present in ancient Chinese astronomy (as well as Sumerian), the bagua arranged around the taichi, and the Lo Shu in the form of the Magic Square. They interact seamlessly via rotation angles, calibrations to the distances from the Sun, and via a yin/yang axis 'channel' that can allow passage across the central circle.

why does it take the innovation of King Wen to make the difference or in the alternative what was the reasoning for twisting the mechanism one way up through the Shang and another way in the Chou Yi?
Yin is anticlockwise, Yang is clockwise. When one is dealing with Tao, balance must always be sought. If one rotates one way, then one must also rotate the other way. Maybe there is a deeper foundation to the process that King Wen was aware of.

To rotate the axis of the numbered Early Heaven bagua to meet it's mirror-image reflection at 135 degrees in the classical Lo Shu seems like the most obvious way for the two number sequences to interact; especially if we are considering astral movements via the diagrams, which tend to be rotational. When faced with the dilemma of which direction to rotate the Taiji in order to match it up with the Lo Shu yin/yang axis, again it seems obvious to go with the yang direction first, and then balance it out with the yin direction. This is what happens in my method.

People will see what they want to see in the sequences and the I-Ching, as you say. I like a straight-forward demonstrable world; the marvels of which can be shared with everyone I meet. I have looked to be as impartial as possible in my method, and let the ancient diagrams and observable phenomena speak for themselves in the most simple and obvious ways possible. It is just the sequence of interactions these diagrams have which govern the profundity of the outcome.
 
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fkegan

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Hi Erime,
So how does this rotation of sequences which generates first the Earlier and then the Later Heaven go on to create the King Wen Sequence? Lienshan is able to use a trigram sequence to account for most of the hexagrams in order, though not all.

From a Gestalt perspective there isn't a direct black box mechanism to throw off the hexagrams in order. Rather the line patterns embody in their structure the meaning of the hexagram. Each pattern of six lines is the gestalt of a specific meaning. Then these gestalten and their meanings are arranged into the overall matrix where simultaneously they form odd-even tumbled pairs and also sets of 10.

People will see what they want to see in the sequences and the I-Ching, as you say. I like a straight-forward demonstrable world; the marvels of which can be shared with everyone I meet. I have looked to be as impartial as possible in my method, and let the ancient diagrams and observable phenomena speak for themselves in the most simple and obvious ways possible. It is just the sequence of interactions these diagrams have which govern the profundity of the outcome.
I understand the sentiment. Watching one's perspective work out gives a sense of the profound. The philosophical framework of the Pythagorean Tetraktys applied to the matrix of King Wen Sequence hexagrams also yields an added depth in terms of how the placement explains more of the meaning of the individual hexagram and also of its entire set of 10.

As a result the gestalt perspective explains the Origin of the King Wen Sequence in terms of the structural meaning of the line patterns in the gua rather than any set of trigram or other sequences which clearly were the basis for the earlier arrangements.


Frank
 

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Hi Frank - I just wanted to mention quickly that I've been looking in to the King Wen hexagram sequence once again after all this time, and I have found some interesting patterns (mostly independent of the 2 trigram bagua sequences, but the trigram arrangements can be brought to bear in places).

Unfortunately the findings are more ambiguous and not as 'neat' as those I found between the early and later heaven trigram bagua, but they appear profound never-the-less and reveal a hidden symmetry in the whole King Wen sequence which I don't think has been reported by anyone else. I am just compiling my info and I'll be posting again shortly. :)

Hope you are still interested!
 

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Source of the King Wen Sequence

Hi Ermine,

I remain totally interested in the source and meaning of the King Wen Sequence!

The great innovation of the KWS is the transition from focus upon the lines to the focus upon the meaning of the hexagrams, which I believe is the essence of the change from Earlier Heaven to Later Heaven trigram circles. It is also why the modern gua as binary images folks find only Earlier Heaven makes any sense to them.

Under I Ching News there is a thread about the Yi globe, a modern computer type's notion of putting the hexagrams upon the globe using the latitudes as levels based upon number of Yin lines in the hexagrams. He feels his Yi Globe must have been the origin of the KWS.

For me, the KWS makes fun of the notion that the line structure is of any importance, using the 32 pairs by tumbled line structure as only a background. The meaning and Source of the KWS is given in the philosophy involved, which we Westerners have best access to through the Pythagorean Tetraktys, though it is also the basis of the Taiji or Yin/Yang symbol.

I have rewritten my fluxtome page on my various insights (http://www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html) and added a page explicitly giving my explanation of the KWS in terms of each hexagram: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/KingWen.html

It is not too easy to take the leap from modern views to my ancient perspective and I am working on trying to make a clearer exposition starting with detailed comments upon the 7 Monads and Dyads of the KWS. Hopefully by the time you are ready to post on your work I will have mine ready too.

I have only gotten so far as beginning to note them. Here are the Monads:
The 7 Monads Of the KWS
Part One—The World--
The Water Cycle 1. Sunshine
II. Social Energy 11. Dreamland
III. Divine principles 21. Digging In
Part Two-- Society
IV. Human Relations
31. Moonshine
V. Societal Aspiration
41. Sacrifice
VI. Divine Presence
51. Swoops
VII. Global Symbolism
61. Love’s Route

Best regards,
Frank
 

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Hi Frank - I just wanted to mention quickly that I've been looking in to the King Wen hexagram sequence once again after all this time, and I have found some interesting patterns (mostly independent of the 2 trigram bagua sequences, but the trigram arrangements can be brought to bear in places).

Unfortunately the findings are more ambiguous and not as 'neat' as those I found between the early and later heaven trigram bagua, but they appear profound never-the-less and reveal a hidden symmetry in the whole King Wen sequence which I don't think has been reported by anyone else. I am just compiling my info and I'll be posting again shortly. :)

Hope you are still interested!
Hallo Erime,

don't know which Frank you are implying but i'm still interested in your search of the origine of the KW sequence.

all the best from frank
 

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