I think i've discovered the origin of the King Wen Sequence

[erime]

Hi Frank(s),

The great innovation of the KWS is the transition from focus upon the lines to the focus upon the meaning of the hexagrams, which I believe is the essence of the change from Earlier Heaven to Later Heaven trigram circles.

This is not what I have gathered from any insights I have discovered yet. But each to our own at the moment, eh!

The meaning and Source of the KWS is given in the philosophy involved, which we Westerners have best access to through the Pythagorean Tetraktys, though it is also the basis of the Taiji or Yin/Yang symbol.

Master Wu would disagree with you there, which we will come to further down. The taiji duality, dual lines, trigrams, hexagrams, and hexagram pairs all lend themselves to duality-based expression of various phenomena, and this suggests that some kind of logical binary-related system was used.

It is not too easy to take the leap from modern views to my ancient perspective and I am working on trying to make a clearer exposition starting with detailed comments upon the 7 Monads and Dyads of the KWS. Hopefully by the time you are ready to post on your work I will have mine ready too.

I have only gotten so far as beginning to note them. Here are the Monads:
The 7 Monads Of the KWS
Part One—The World--
The Water Cycle 1. Sunshine
II. Social Energy 11. Dreamland
III. Divine principles 21. Digging In
Part Two-- Society
IV. Human Relations
31. Moonshine
V. Societal Aspiration
41. Sacrifice
VI. Divine Presence
51. Swoops
VII. Global Symbolism
61. Love’s Route

Thanks for posting this - I did check out your theory a while ago, but it is just the subjective elements which I had a problem with. I believe it needs to be literally in black & white - to excuse the taiji-related pun there - to be taken seriously, and this is the angle I have ben coming from with my explanations.

I thirstily checked out the Yi-Globe answer to the problem, and here are some quotes which didn't fill me with much revelation:

(From 'V. Origin of the sequence of the Hexagrams')

"The presence of the main rule of the canonized arrangement, the pairing, in the Yi-globe provides for the basis in itself to suppose that there is a direct relation between the Yi-globe and the canonical sequence."

"In all probability, the sixty-four hexagrams have been rearranged some times during the thousands of years."

"Presumably, these re-arrangements did not occur at the same time, in one step, but during the gradual transformations of the forms. First, perhaps, the original three-dimensional structure had been simplified into a plane, then it underwent one or more transformations, split up, and mutated until it reached the present linearity."

"Based on the analysis of the canonical matrix, it appears that some time in the past an arrangement, similar to the one demonstrated in figure 47, had to exist. In this hypothetical arrangement the hexagrams were grouped in accordance with their positions in the Yi-globe. In the course of time, however, the place of some hexagrams has changed – maybe accidentally, maybe as a result of a new conception – and the canonical matrix took shape. Thereafter, the extension of this has yielded the recently known sequence."

"In reality, this had to be the original, correct form of the canonical matrix. [i.e. today's King Wen Sequence which everyone uses is wrong? -Erime]"

"The logical deduction following the changes from the Yi-globe up to the canonical sequence, included a step – the transition from the Yi-matrix to the canonical matrix – which has to be attributed to accidental displacement of the signs."

... so I didn't bother reading much more, except his own admittance that "some of the hexagrams are not at their correct place at present."

He basically wanted to fit the King Wen Sequence to a Sphere - a nice idea - I have tried similar things with the Wu Xing Cycles, but when no obvious pattern emerged, I didn't then create a highly complex and methodologically ambiguous set of tables and assumed 'mistakes' present within the ancient Chinese system in order to make everything fit together (albeit very loosely)... I feel cheated for spending all that time reading that complex stuff on that website - I can almost see hexagrams spinning around my head after all the flimsy convolutions that method took me through... maybe that is the truest way to realise the Yi-Globe!

Anyway, on a more positive note, for those seeking a more logical, direct, obvious, and rational approach, by writing out my findings in prepartion for posting here the link between the Early and Later Heaven bagua and the King Wen I-Ching sequence, I have actually discovered a lot more, which is more profound and simple than I had previously considered (more straight-forward than my explanation for the Later Heaven Bagua even!)

So I am now thinking of writing a book, which will include my Later Heaven (King Wen) Bagua solution, and the I-Ching King Wen sequence... I've just got to explore it all a bit deeper, and even so, what I have discovered thus far I can practically guarantee you is ground-breaking enough to warrant a book about it, especially in combination with the Later Heaven Bagua mechanism (to be explained better in the book than on this forum).

It all utilises the systems and information we have available to us already (just like the method for the Later Heaven trigrams); no need for special DNA or Sphere node associations, or any reference to the meanings of the hexagrams themselves. It's all just plain good old binary logic - the interactions between various dualistic systems for analysing the natural world - no mysticism necessary (as yet, that is; maybe subjective metaphysics will come in later as I work my way through various patterns in the sequence). One thing is for sure; I will not be suggesting there is anything 'wrong' with the King Wen sequence.

The true key lies in how the ancient binary-rooted systems for modelling natural phenomena inter-related to form the King Wen I-Ching sequence, and this system of inter-relating gives one a very candid view in to the minds of the ancient Chinese shamans - the same logic that brought them the bagua and astronomical predictions was very present in the construction of the King Wen sequence; very possibly before any meaning was allocated to the hexagrams.

Relievingly, for the King Wen I-Ching sequence, there are no planets or strange angular rotations involved, as there are for the Later Heaven bagua, which simplifies the descriptive process and solution for the I-Ching sequence in general.

I am very excited to share this with you all, but alas it will have to wait until any form of publication. As before, with my later heaven solution, I would love to release it free of charge, but it's going to take a good while to do it justice with thorough investigation and study. I will see how much time and effort I've put in by the time I am finished. I want to be quick, too, because it's not so difficult to discover what I have - it just takes some motivation, a grounding in ancient Chinese systems thinking, and an eye for patterns.

To further support me, Master Wu's words, located in his 'Yijing Prediction and Wu (Shamanism): Introduction', say:

"The high-level Yijing masters regarded the practical Yijing information on Xiang (symbolism) and Shu (numerology) as the secret keys to the mystical gates of the universe and the human being. They believed that a person with high virtue who mastered these keys would bring great benefit to others. In contrast, they felt that a person with a big ego or without ethics who mastered the keys would bring much harm to others. Therefore, they always picked their students carefully and taught their complete knowledge to only a few specially chosen students. [...] Because Chinese masters have followed these admonitions, most Chinese people have no knowledge of Xiang and Shu. Although there are many different English versions of the Yijing, most of them just contain information on Li, the philosophical part of the Yijing, and it is therefore difficult for Westerners to find high-quality information about Xiang and Shu.", p12-13

"This divination system is based on the Yijing knowledge of Xiang (symbolism) and Shu (numerology) in the Xiantian Bagua 先天八卦 (Prenatal Trigrams Arrangement) and Houtian Bagua 後天八卦 (Postnatal Trigrams Arrangement) We can find some of the knowledge in Confucius’ Shiyu 十翼 (Ten Wings) and also in one of the oldest historical books, Zuozhuan 左傳." p.15

My work compeletely follows these statements - it sems to breathe life in to them in fact, by presenting you with the very LOGICAL NON-MYSTICAL system that created the King Wen Yijing. That doesn't mean to say that it is non-organic - chaos theory and the golden ratio, etc., show us that nature has logic and binary rooted within it's dynamics and orders. :bows:

Please be patient - I am not going to reveal any of what I have found beyond my family members until I am close enough to publication - if my family can understand it and thinks it's profound, then this is my proof that I have not forced anything on to the sequence.

What I can say, is that the King Wen I-Ching is ultimately attributable to the motions of the planets; the 'King Wen' Later Heaven Bagua forming the calibration 'axis' so to speak. Nothing of what I am discovering is undermining what ancient and contemporary interpreters have said lies at the philosophical core of the I-Ching or what makes it so profound as a system which models the natural laws of the universe. It truly is a the union of Heaven and Earth in Man!

I just hope that what ever amount of ego I have will not "bring much harm to others".

 

[fkegan]

Taiji as an example of the Tetratkys

Hi Erime,

The folks into the artifacts and historical records note that the Duality of Yin and Yang appears with Confucius and later. The tradition is that King Wen arranged the hexagrams as hexagrams, his son Duke Chou the line judgments and later came the notion of the trigrams. It is not important whether the Chou leaders actually did the work, but that does indicate the process of development.

I must totally reject Master Wu. In terms of teaching, Yin/Yang Duality is all he needs, but in terms of philosophy and especially the KWS, duality is only a small piece of the whole.

Consider the Taiji: There are two big swirls of Yang and Yin, but that is only part of it. The entire symbol is inscribed within a circle--That is the Monad.

There are the two impressive swirls of Yang and Yin--That is the Dyad.

There are two eyes, which combined with the two swirls and the circumscribed circle are the Triad or process perspective. The myriad things arise from beginnings within the world of prior things, one eye, then each grows to its full development, Yang swirl, and then decays into subsequent things, the other eye; and the product is the myriad things symbolized by the whole Taiji.

And finally, all the components of the Taiji detail the Tetrad or double dichotomy: The duality from Yang eye to Yang Swirl and the other dichotomy of Yin Eye to Yin swirl. In Western terms these are perpendicular axes. In Chinese, although it is required to know perpendicular bisectors to construct the Taiji, it is not a form used. Nothing involving a cross or other perpendiculars is compatible with Chinese philosophy.

These four perspectives explain the King Wen Sequence. If you put the 64 hexagrams in sets of 10, you get the first half as 3 sets, Earth, Man, Heaven. The second half starts with the intimate attraction of individuals--the youngest son and the youngest daughter--as the foundation of the family which is the foundation of Chinese society.

The final four hexagrams come after the 6 sets of 10 and they, like the cardinal points of perpendicular bisectors indicate their meaning by their overall line structure taken as an illustrative gestalt.

Stating each hexagram in black in white is a job I continue to work on. I have two pages where I go through the first set of ten, the Water Cycle as a concrete, black and white example fully explained by just the nature associations of the trigrams.

My Flux Tome page: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
Has been re-edited recently to go through this all several times and also I have
two other pages:
http://www.stars-n-dice.com/KingWen.html
http://www.stars-n-dice.com/tetraktys.html
that go through it all in detail in relation to the Pythagorean Tetratkys. I am currently working on making the black-and-white statement of the 7 Monads in the Yi and the 7 Dyads as well.

I understand it is a large leap from modern perspectives of binary number patterns and Yin and Yang I Ching, and algebraic Western science, and geography to the ancient perspectives of natural numbers, Euclidean geometry, philosophical monads and Tetraktys--that is why I have so many different ways of going through it.

In gestalt theory of Yang and Yin, to see things clearly in black and white requires clarity of the context (Yin or white page) more than the details of the text (Yang).

Frank

 

[erime]

The folks into the artifacts and historical records note that the Duality of Yin and Yang appears with Confucius and later. The tradition is that King Wen arranged the hexagrams as hexagrams, his son Duke Chou the line judgments and later came the notion of the trigrams. It is not important whether the Chou leaders actually did the work, but that does indicate the process of development.

I would very much appreciate it if you could point me to the most trusted source of this information - preferably in English, but since I am still in China it would not be too difficult to access any chinese script.

I must totally reject Master Wu. In terms of teaching, Yin/Yang Duality is all he needs, but in terms of philosophy and especially the KWS, duality is only a small piece of the whole.

Not when it comes down to the logic of binary systems, though. What I am saying is that something along the lines of '1 + 2' creates the King Wen I-Ching Sequence as much as the number 3 is created. Yes, philosophy does play a part - and more so symbolic philosophy combined with basic natural process from what I have discovered.. and so when we are faced with 1+2=3 it is very difficult to accept anything else; especially if anything else is a lot more open to debate than simple sums.

There are two eyes, which combined with the two swirls and the circumscribed circle are the Triad or process perspective. The myriad things arise from beginnings within the world of prior things, one eye, then each grows to its full development, Yang swirl, and then decays into subsequent things, the other eye; and the product is the myriad things symbolized by the whole Taiji.

You probably won't believe me (but you will eventually ), but the process I have discovered completely represents all aspects of the Taiji as you have described them. Maybe you are thinking my understanding of Taoist systems is shallower than it is?

My method covers all the ancient basic processes, philosophy, and symbolism, from circle and square representing Heaven and Earth, and then Taiji and Lo Shu respectively, right up to the hexagrams Qian and Kun by involving the Early and Later Heaven Bagua. I invent nothing new beyond interaction of the traditional ancient systems.

Ancient knowledge of the planetary positions relative to the Sun was disputed by some for my Later Heaven Bagua explanation, but there is no such possibility for my I-Ching KWS explanation. It's much more straight-forward. Who ever created what I call the main 'skeleton' of the sequence was very scientifically minded - more of a metaphysical mathematicial than a mystic. It's all here scribbled on a piece of paper in front of me on my desk. It's not even particularly elegant.

In Chinese, although it is required to know perpendicular bisectors to construct the Taiji, it is not a form used. Nothing involving a cross or other perpendiculars is compatible with Chinese philosophy.

Again; it would be great if you could quote your sources here. The ancient Chinese were avid star-gazers and mapped the sky using cardinal directions.

Master Wu says the following: "Wu depicts Sifang 四方– four directions or four quadrates (squares). Sifang can be translated as the four cardinal directions—north, south, east, and west. This is the pattern that the ancient Wu applied to the center of their bodies as “high-tech” equipment to communicate with the other four directions, and it was through this practice that they understood the universal way. This
practice is called Zhongdao 中道 (Central Way) in Chinese. In this Wu tradition, the body is the central direction coordinated with the other four directions. Therefore, Sifang (four directions) includes the fifth direction – the centre." p.8

The relationship of these directions to the Early and Later Heaven Bagua seems intimately woven. The Lo Shu itself, at the centre of the Later Heaven Bagua, lends itself to assigning discrete identities to four main directions and a central placement. As Master Wu said; "difficult for Westerners to find high-quality information about ancient chinese symbolism and numerology" - this is what will be revealed by my book - that which was coveted by the Yijing Masters.

I am pretty sure there are other people alive today who know what I have discovered - I am no cryptologist or expert. I have used personal insights from other ancient Chinese disciplines which has given me conviction that particular teachings lie at the core of Taoism , in order to guide my pattern searches though - and I do believe that this has played a big part in allowing me to discover what I have. Anyone else with similar leanings would discover the same thing if they thought it worthwhile to put in the same efforts.

their meaning by their overall line structure taken as an illustrative gestalt.

It seems all you will find by doing this is the gestalt you are imposing on the KWS itself - putting the hexagrams in sets of 10, with 4 left over. How can you be so sure that this gestalt is correct? There is no special reference to an order of 10 in all the KWS as far as I am aware. Why impose that upon it?

I have only been using what has already been related to the I-Ching - even suggested as being at it's core already - I impose nothing and just reinforce all the ancient statements. Again; you probably don't believe me for whatever reason, which is fair enough, but I WILL show you, and you can kick my butt and laugh in my face if I am wrong - I am perfectly happy to receive the necessary amount of ridicule and shame for making such a bold statement as I am making on this forum. Many people (which has included myself) are thirsty for the explanation, so it is not right to tempt them with a glass of water only for the water to fall out of the bottom once they get hold of the glass. I had that experience yesterday with the Yi Globe website - I had a strong feeling there was going to be a problem with the theory since I have discovered something myself, and yet I was hoping it would give my explanation an even deeper dimension. Alas it didn't and I was left very frustrated.
So far I have 1/4 of the KWS wrapped up with basic procedure giving one a 'skeleton', and I am feeling confident that at least half of the I-Ching will lend itself to such procedures; hopefully with a core procedure in common. Frank_r; someone with a good analytical mind and grasp of the systems involved looked at my Later Heaven explanation and congratulated me on my findings - so you can see from my previous investigations that I am not in the business of complicating things with new additional ideas or structures - I am looking for a way to reduce the complexity, and it seems I have found it.

Anyway, I should be spending this time getting my explanations ready really, eh...

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence and hexagram meaning from very simple axioms

Hi Erime,
Bradford was my main source on the historical artifacts and other history of I Ching stuff. My interest was in the concept that the source of the KWS is the meaning of the hexagrams overall, and then trigrams and line judgments follow after, both philosophically and in terms of texts.

In terms of my source--I would send you again to my Flux Tome. It was an original insight of mine, in the process of explaining the hexagrams in general, to a friend that I realized the two principles that were sufficient to explain the meaning of a hexagram overall from just the line structure:

1) That Yang tends to diffuse while Yin tends to absorb.

2) There is a natural sequence from first to second and on through the 6th line place.

At that time, in the mid-70's it was just a flash of insight, and I have been working on it ever since. However, I have gotten pretty good at it. You can search my posts about interpreting hexagrams (Rosada's threads) or Shared Readings for concrete examples and I explain the meaning of the hexagrams from solely the Yang lines on Flux Tome page.

The logic of binary systems is a 20th century Western notion. The Yi is not binary, it is gestalt. No addition involved. If you can't transcend that binary context, of course you can't see my perspective.

I have no idea of your understanding of Taoist systems. My understanding is that they are mystical and thus not relevant to an objective philosophical argument. I await your argument, though hopefully not as long as this. To be all of Taoist is summed up in Do Nothing, Leave Nothing Undone. Which didn't mean that much until I moved to Stilpoint, ready to move in forever, found myself on a plane back home in a matter of days because nothing was working out and no one was going to be around there. When I returned to my prior life, I found that the sojourn on Pike's Peak had indeed solved all my issues and accomplished all the healing that I had sought to achieve over months or years.

There is a total mismatch between what I said upon perpendiculars and your reply. I stated perpendiculars were clearly required to construct the geometry of the Taiji, however, there quite pointedly are none shown in the drawing. The authority or source for my remarks--Euclid's Elements and looking at the Taiji! It is self-evident. I learned it by taking compass and straight-edge and doing the construction.

You resist the gestalt approach rather totally, but that in itself is a problem. You must have an open mind to learn anything. A full tea cup will just spill over if you keep pouring, Do you know the reference? I assume you do.

As for mention of the sets of 10, let me give you two:
1) The Chinese numbering system-- look at the numbers of the hexagrams in KWS the number of crosses is a set of 10.

2) In Wilhelm in the preamble to hexagrams 11 and 41 you find reference to the sets of 10, it is a quick reference but powerful.

Why do I have such admiration for my sets of 10 for the KWS interpreted solely by the Yang lines as focus within the 6-place Yin Matrix and the Pythagorean Tetratkys? Because it is so elegant and the resultant interpretation so rich. Unlike as this Western mumbo jumbo and trigram sets or binary line math or the rest.

I too much move along. Work on your evidence, try to make it simple or keep it short and Google Gestalt and spend some time looking at the two faces or vase until you realize the insight of it.

Best of Luck,
Frank

 

[erime]

Thanks for taking the time to be comprehensive Frank, I am sure we could spend hours going back and forth here, I understand your angle and I don't think you understand mine; or maybe you can't understand it properly until I show you 'the math' so speak... and it's not maths, it's just a dualistic extrapolation of sorts.

Anyway, I'll do my best, and we'll see what you think. Again - I am all open to criticism of the harshest kind.

I feel the winds of luck have been with me to allow me to stumble upon the profound connections I have discovered. I will work as quickly and as diligently as I can to get these revelations out in the public domain.

All the best,
Erime

 

[fkegan]

Thanks for taking the time to be comprehensive Frank, I am sure we could spend hours going back and forth here, I understand your angle and I don't think you understand mine; or maybe you can't understand it properly until I show you 'the math' so speak... and it's not maths, it's just a dualistic extrapolation of sorts.

Anyway, I'll do my best, and we'll see what you think. Again - I am all open to criticism of the harshest kind.

I feel the winds of luck have been with me to allow me to stumble upon the profound connections I have discovered. I will work as quickly and as diligently as I can to get these revelations out in the public domain.

All the best,
Erime

Hi Erime,

I am not at all sure you understand understand my angle at all. I am clear I have no idea about yours.
Nothing in your posts shows any comprehension at all of either gestalt perspective or Tetraktys or simple Monad, Triad and Tetrad notions. Duality I recognize you have down pat.

I fully understand and agree with your comments upon appreciating the gift of being allowed to feel that we have discovered this caput Nili--The Source of the Nile and its mysterious annual floods--in the deepest, darkest Terra Incognita of the King Wen Sequence.

I will also work diligently to get my complete exposition of the 7 Monads and Dyads of the I Ching out into the world.

Rather than make any more statements, let me ask you two questions. One on this topic and the other just about Confucius.

1) What is the derivation and meaning of the ideograms for Yang and Yin?
I use Weiger, S.J. Chinese Characters with Yang as a pennant in bright sunshine and Yin as the dark shadow of a valley.

2) I am seeking the citation and exact quote for the remark of Confucius that one needs to be 40 years old before consulting the Yi Oracle.

Good Luck with your mathematical dualities!

:bows: Frank

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence and T'ai Chi symbol--Monads

Hi All,
I finally managed to write up a full web page on the 7 Monads of the KWS and add it as a text link from my Flux Tome page:
http://www.stars-n-dice.com/monad.html

In completing the detailed explanation I came to realize a number of reasons why it is so hard for others to see the explanation of the KWS from the monad, etc.

First, most folks think the KWS is a checkerboard arrangement 8 x 8 which makes it tough to realize it is actually a 6 x 10 arrangement with four final hexagrams left over.

Second, although the KWS is composed of 32 pairs, they have no part in the explanation of the sequence which uses a set of 1, 2+3, 4 +5 +6, and 7 & 8 + 9 & 10 to make the decads or sets of 10.

Anyway, I have the monad page which goes a long way to explain the KWS. Next come the other pages, Dyad, Triad and Tetrad which will explain all 64 hexagrams from their line structure and relate them to the Taiji and Pythagorean Tetraktys.

Erime,
Hope this inspires you to complete your explanation of the KWS and get it posted. I would mention that explaining ALMOST all of the hexagrams doesn't work. Lienshan used the ancient Yi patterns to do all but one or two pairs. The hexagrams fit into all sorts of arrangements pretty much, but not exactly.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[lienshan]

One thing is for sure; I will not be suggesting there is anything 'wrong' with the King Wen sequence.

The 'wrong' with the King Wen sequence is, that the hexagrampairs 43-44 and 45-46 are reversed.

The twelve earthly branches of chapter one (the twelve hexagrampairs 3-26) are well structured in a less-more yanglines pattern (2-4/1-5/3-5/1-3/2-3/1-4). The ten heavenly stems of chapter two (the ten hexagrampairs 31-50) are too structured in a less-more yangline structure, but (3-4/2-4/2-3/5-2/3-4). The problem is, that only 'less yanglines' of the earthly branches are paired with 'less yanglines' of the heavenly stems, and only 'more yanglines' of the earthly branches are paired with 'more yanglines' of the heavenly stems, when creating a 'sexagenary cycle'. The reversion of the two hexagrampair is too obvious when counting the amount of 'yanglines':

Earthly branches 2+1+3+1+2+1 = 10 and 4+5+5+3+3+4 = 24
Heavenly stems 3+2+2+2+3 = 12 and 4+4+3+5+4 = 20
Heavenly stems 3+2+2+5+3 = 15 and 4+4+3+2+4 = 17 (the King Wen sequence)

The second section of chapter one consists of six hexagrams symbolizing the six lines of a hexagram
and at the same time showing the eight trigrams:

01 !!! !!! (Heaven)
02 (Earth)
27 !:: ::! (Mountain and Thunder)
28 :!! !!: (Lake and Wind)
29 :!: :!: (Water)
30 !:! !:! (Fire)

The second section of chapter two consists of eight hexagrams/hexagrampairs symbolizing the eight trigrams, but at the same time only showing six trigrams (Heaven and Earth is absent):

51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !:: ......... 2 yang lines
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!! ......... more (3) yang lines
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !:: ......... 3 yang lines
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!! ......... more (4) yang lines
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!! ......... 3 yang lines
61 !!: :!! .................... more (4) yang lines
62 ::! !:: .................... 2 yang lines
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!: ......... more (3) yang lines

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence about overall meaning NOT hexagram line structure

Hi Lienshan,
Welcome to the KWS discussion some more. I am most pleased you have stated your case yourself in full for Erime's benefit.

The innovation of King Wen's new sequence for the hexagrams was to arrange the 32 pairs by line structure in terms of overall meaning for each hexagram without regard to any detail of internal line structure, number of Yin or Yang lines or the like.

The detail that the hexagrams are arranged into line structure pairs, although that has absolutely nothing to do with the sequence order is a bit of traditional poetic brilliance that we don't see any more. The complex structure in the Hebrew of the Song of Songs is the classic Western example.

Of course, such a view requires believing that the KWS is a major innovation. As long as it is believed there is nothing new under the Sun and the prior system is the only system then as you say, you can only get ALMOST all of the hexagram sequence to fit.

Best Regards,

Frank

 

[fkegan]

The Explanation of the King Wen Sequence from the 6 Decads and final 4 Cardinal hex.

Hi Erime,
How you coming with your exposition? I am working away on mine with my posts on other threads offering many good insights. The themes of the 7 sets (6 decads and the cardinal final four is much clearer to me now:

First Half--
hex 1-10 The Water Cycle as the interaction of sunshine with the Planet Earth topography.
hex 11-20 Agriculture. Human effort to raise crops to support human life upon the surface of the Planet Earth with its Water Cycle. Hex 20 shows its final quiescent expression in the mighty Oak grown from a simple acorn in fertile soil.
hex 21-30 Karma or Justice as the Divine principle that organizes and corrects human society and keeping the world on track. Its final quiescent state, hex 30 is the daily routine symbolized by the sun in its course from sunrise to sunset.

Second Half--
hex 31-40 the foundation of society in the channeling of the intimate attraction of couples into the family system based upon regular marital relations (hex 40).

hex 41-50 The human aspiration toward the Divine finding its ultimate quiescent expression in the traditional Ting as the serving vessel on the family table holding the ceremonial offering food.

Hex 51-60 The human experience of the Divine striking like a thunderbolt in one's heart. Finding its ultimate quiescent expression in the power of simple topography to bring together the fluid water into the stable configuration of lakes and oceans. Thunder brings rain but the sea is eternal and constant. The feelings in the heart must eventually fit into the structures of society.

Hex 61-64 The final four cardinal hexagrams whose structure expresses their symbolism. The vertical axis 61 & 62: The open heart as the feelings within the ground of being. The full heart as the motivation for human action in the World.
The horizontal axis of time: Hex 63 As the Morning After where things are seen completed. Hex 64 Eve the potential and imagination of the sunset which motivates the new beginning for the following Dawn.

That is the explanation of the King Wen Sequence for the I Ching hexagrams. Q.E.D. :bows:

Cheers,
Frank

 

[lienshan]

The innovation of King Wen's new sequence for the hexagrams was to arrange the 32 pairs by line structure in terms of overall meaning for each hexagram without regard to any detail of internal line structure, number of Yin or Yang lines or the like.

Trigram Heaven placed before trigram Earth was the innovation of King Wen

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

The theorized original structure contains three separate discussions of the trigrams (Shuo Gua):

1. The 6 complementary hexagrams of chapter one.
The eight trigrams of the hexagrams are placed in an "unnatural" order:
Earth above Heaven / Mountain above Thunder / Lake above Wind/ Water above Fire

2. The 10 hexagram pairs of the Heavenly Stems in chapter two.
The two complementary hexagram pairs 31-32 and 41-42 preceed each an order of trigrams:
(31-32) Heaven - Earth - Fire - Water and (41-42) Earth - Heaven - Water - Fire

3. The 8 complementary hexagrams and hexagram pairs of chapter two.
The theme seems to be the correct order of the trigrams Mountain and Lake?
And the conclusion seems to be the correct order of hexagrams 63 and 64?

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence Explained fully by decad and Tetratkys!

Hi Lienshan,

Yes, I have heard your views several times and I totally have different views. The entire quote of my post is:

Hi Lienshan,
Welcome to the KWS discussion some more. I am most pleased you have stated your case yourself in full for Erime's benefit.

The innovation of King Wen's new sequence for the hexagrams was to arrange the 32 pairs by line structure in terms of overall meaning for each hexagram without regard to any detail of internal line structure, number of Yin or Yang lines or the like.

The detail that the hexagrams are arranged into line structure pairs, although that has absolutely nothing to do with the sequence order is a bit of traditional poetic brilliance that we don't see any more. The complex structure in the Hebrew of the Song of Songs is the classic Western example.

Of course, such a view requires believing that the KWS is a major innovation. As long as it is believed there is nothing new under the Sun and the prior system is the only system then as you say, you can only get ALMOST all of the hexagram sequence to fit.

Best Regards,

Frank

As you may notice, I did not mention any trigrams in the post you quoted which is all about how the King Wen Sequence is about the meaning of the hexagram as a whole without any interest or concern for your Shang era trigram stems. I realize to the pure all things are pure and your interest in your tradition overrides all other concerns in your mind, but as even you admit your system is unable to account for all the KWS and mine does.

You may be content to just say King Wen is wrong and the earlier Shang is all anyone needs but I totally disagree.

The sophistication and insight of the KWS by decad delights, impresses and amazes me whether you look at the Yi as a fortunetelling manual or a book of wisdom or as I do as a marvel of creative development that does both and more.:bows:

Cheers,
Frank

 

[lienshan]

As you may notice, I did not mention any trigrams in the post you quoted which is all about how the King Wen Sequence is about the meaning of the hexagram as a whole without any interest or concern for your Shang era trigram stems.

My concern is both the Shang and the Xia era trigram stems and branches. The Shang era sequence was preceeded by the hexagram Earth (2) and the Xia era sequence was preceeded by the hexagram Mountain (52), according to legend. The Zhou era sequence is preceeded by hexagram Heaven (1). My pointe is, that it's impossible to explain the Kong Wen sequence without explaining the previous Shang and Xia hexagram sequences. No one has for thousands of years been able to explain the King Wen hexagram sequence by logic. Why? Because the King Wen sequence isn't logic, but is a change of previous sequence, that was logic!

I realize to the pure all things are pure and your interest in your tradition overrides all other concerns in your mind, but as even you admit your system is unable to account for all the KWS and mine does.

My system is a reconstruction of the previous Shang and Xia hexagram sequences. My method is to spot that which makes the King Wen sequence "unlogic"? It's simple: Hexagram Heaven (1) before hexagram Earth (2) and hexagrampair 43-44 (Lake/Heaven) before hexagrampair 45-46 (Lake/Earth) are "unlogic"!

These two are "unlogic", because all other hexagrampairs are structured in a less and more yangline pattern, while Heaven before Earth is a more and less yangline pattern.

The less and more yangline pattern tells me, that the original sequence was made of 36 units:

8 units - hexagrams, that look alike when turned upside down (1, 2, 27, 28, 29, 30, 61, 62)
28 units - hexagrams, that look different when turned upside down (all other hexagrampairs)

The chapters of the original sequence consisted of 18 and 18 units.
But read as 64 hexagrams is the chapter division 30 and 34 hexagrams.

 

[lienshan]

The innovation of King Wen's new sequence for the hexagrams was to arrange the 32 pairs by line structure in terms of overall meaning for each hexagram without regard to any detail of internal line structure, number of Yin or Yang lines or the like.

That hexagram Heaven is before hexagram Earth, 6 yanglines before 0 yanglines, more before less, has of course no influence on your theory, but that the hexagrampair Lake-Heaven/Heaven-Wind is before the hexagrampair Lake-Earth/Earth-Wind, 5 yanglines before 1 yangline, more before less, tilts your theory uch:

Why? Because this structual exception is a trigram exception in the the socalled "Lake-sequence"!

Sorry, but the King Wen sequence itself speaks against you

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence Explained fully by the simple ancient logic

Hi Lienshan,

Don't be sorry. Your views from the Shang dynasty were rejected by ancient China when everyone, except those few die hards like you moved on from the trigram and line place details to the whole hexagram gestalt of the KWS.

The proof of wonder of the KWS is in the ability of the numbering of the hexagrams to expound upon the philosophical richness of the new (1100B.C.E.) thinking and philosophy of the four philosophical perspective that came to be embodied in the Taiji-The holistic unity of the Monad or total gestalt. The duality of simple polar opposites--two sides of the unified coin like Yang and Yin. The three phases of process perspective and the full plane geometry exposition of the double dichotomy or Cartesian axes.

Dealing just with Yang lines in trigrams or hexagrams gets you in line for Joe's Yi Globe but does nothing for understanding the hexagram sequence. Declaring KWS illogical is of no use at all except for those still fighting the rear guard action on behalf of Shang era fortunetelling. Those who like it, like you are welcome to keep up the tradition. But that is no reason to put up with assaults upon the KWS. It is not illogical it is brilliant and it is only your tunnel vision, blinders and fixed ideas that make such a realization so impossible for you.

The ancient ideogram of the King indicates that he was expected to unify the three great realms of Chinese Universe: The Earth, Society, and Divine Principles.
The KWS explains what this is all about. First half of the Yi: Decad One (hex 1-11) is a detailed essay upon the Water Cycle, its basis in the interaction of Planet Earth topography and the celestial dynamics of Sunshine.

Decad Two (hex 11-20) is about the essential work of Society--to turn the natural reality of the Water Cycle into the human resource of agriculture providing crops to feed the population.

Decade Three (hex 21-30) is about the fundamental Divine principle of Justice, Karma or Cause-and-Effect which is how human society regulates itself and maintains order and peaceful development.

The Second Half of the King Wen Sequence completes all other possible permutations of a six place matrix with focus or openness markers. There are 64 of them which results in another 3 sets of 10 and four final cardinal symbols overall.

Decad Four (hex 31-40) recognizes that the foundation of the family and thus of Chinese society is the fundamental love between individuals which leads to marriage and children and keeps the family on track and society in order.

Decad Five (hex 41-50) The human expression of reaching toward the Divine to integrate spiritual principles into family life.

Decade Six (51-60) Deals with the Divine reaching into human life, the thunderbolt to the heart (hex 51) and how to deal with these extreme events and how to bring the results into peaceful normalcy--the flowing water becomes the placid Lake (hex 60).

The final four hexagrams are the four symbolic cardinal points by overall structure: hex 61 The Inner Openness, hex 62 the heart's passions confront the world outside, hex 63 the completion of things, hex 64 the beginning of new initiatives.

Thank you, Lienshan for giving me the opportunity to point out the excellence of the logic of the King Wen Sequence that transcends the details and limitations of older kinds of thinking just in terms of simple elements, line values, trigram without being able to move up to higher level gestalt principles. :bows:

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Thank you, Lienshan for giving me the opportunity to point out the excellence of the logic of the King Wen Sequence that transcends the details and limitations of older kinds of thinking just in terms of simple elements, line values, trigram without being able to move up to higher level gestalt principles. :bows:

That the hexagrampairs 43-44 and 45-46 have been reversed influences chapter one this way:

23 !:: 24 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 43-44 (Zhou numbering)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 46-45 (Zhou numbering)

23 !:: 24 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 45-46 (Shang numbering)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 44-43 (Shang numbering)

The middle section of chapter one with Shang numbering:

03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... complementary with 50-49
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 35-36
07 :!: 08 :!: ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 13-14
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! ......... 5 yang lines ......... complementary with 16-15
11 !!! 12 !!! ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with itself
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! ......... 5 yang lines
15 !:: 16 ::! ......... 1 yang lines
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with itself
19 :!! 20 !!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... complementary with 33-34
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with 48-47
23 !:: 24 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 45-46
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 44-43

Four of the six complementary with chapter two pairs are identical with the "lake sequence".
That'll say the pairs 43-44, 45-46, 47-48 and 49-50.
The "Lake sequence" is reverted in chapter one, when the pairs 3-4 and 19-20 are exchanged:

19 :!! 20 !!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... complementary with 33-34
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 35-36
07 :!: 08 :!: ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 13-14
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! ......... 5 yang lines ......... complementary with 16-15
11 !!! 12 !!! ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with itself
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! ......... 5 yang lines
15 !:: 16 ::! ......... 1 yang lines
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with itself
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... complementary with 50-49
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! ......... 3 yang lines ......... complementary with 48-47
23 !:: 24 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... complementary with 45-46
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ......... 4 yang lines ......... complementary with 44-43

 

[fkegan]

Hi Lienshan,
I guess repeating the same patterns over and over helps to keep them fresh in your mind, but doesn't do anything to promote understanding. You ably point out that in terms of lines and such taken from the Shang Dynasty perspective the King Wen Sequence fails to fit into prior expectations. However, the whole point of the new thinking was to introduce a new sense of meaning and to make the whole Shang era mindset obsolete.
The development of the new innovation of the KWS into the 11th century B.C.E. must have made waves. I remember reading an article by an archeologist knowing nothing of the Yi Oracle or anything else occult commenting that the vast pits of used tortoise shell oracles that continued for centuries suddenly disappeared completely in the 11th century B.C.E. Must have been quite something to be a fortuneteller of your ilk back then and suddenly find most of your client disappearing from your practice to consult the new Yi Oracle. That the oracle bone pits disappeared shows how totally the old ways were abandoned once the word got out about the new KWS and its elegant power.

At the moment I have been considering how the second half of the KWS "covers everything else." This is done with 3 more sets of ten hexagrams detailing individual relationships. The decad starting with hex 31 the essential human relationship of an individual man and his chosen mate. The decad starting with hex 41 the efforts by each individual to integrate their religion and their ancestors into their current daily life (culminating in hex 50 The Ting). The final decad of a full 10 hexagrams starting with hex 51 dealing with what happens to individuals within their subjective individuality.
Then the final four hexagrams deal with all other situations in general symbolism. Hex 61 as the realm within of meditation or love's root or love's route toward mystical Source. Hex 62 the trials and travails of the individual taking their inner feelings of the heart and trying to make that manifest as real change in the objective world.
And then the universal symbolism of hex 63 and 64. First hex 63 about completion or the general principle that everything arises from prior conditions and completes its own development (before then decaying into subsequent conditions).

And finally the great hopeful conclusion to the King Wen Sequence in hex 64 where the sun rising from the ocean each dawn represents the re-creation of the world all over again with new beginning and new possibilities.

Again, thank you Lienshan for posting a background upon which I can further explain the King Wen Sequence and how it is so much richer and more sophisticated that the forest of tedious details of line values and other useful subsidiary notions only useful to understand the limited ideas of the Shang. :bows:

 

[lienshan]

I guess repeating the same patterns over and over helps to keep them fresh in your mind,
but doesn't do anything to promote understanding.

When a sequence structure is a less/more yangline pattern, then a more/less exception is the way to underline something important. That's probably why hexagram Heaven (more yanglines) is before hexagram Earth (less yanglines) in the beginning of the King Wen sequence saying: Hey! Watch out for the following more yanglines hexagram pairs!

The following hexagram pairs are preceeded by two pairs with trigram Water above saying: Hey! Watch out for the trigrams above of the more yangline hexagram pairs! These are above preceeded by the trigram Earth untill the trigram Earth swifts to below saying: Hey! The story is over!

01 !!! !!! .................... 6 yang lines
02 .................... 0 yang lines
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... Water
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ......... 4 yang lines ......... Water
07 :!: 08 :!: ......... 1 yang lines ......... Earth
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! ......... 5 yang lines ......... Wind
11 !!! 12 !!! ......... 3 yang lines ......... Earth
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! ......... 5 yang lines ......... Heaven
15 !:: 16 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... Earth
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: ......... 3 yang lines ......... Lake
19 :!! 20 !!: ......... 2 yang lines ......... Earth
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! ......... 3 yang lines ......... Fire
23 !:: 24 ::! ......... 1 yang lines ......... (Earth)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ......... 4 yang lines ......... (Thunder)

The Former Heaven trigram sequence is thus highlighted ompom: in the King Wen hexagram sequence :bows:

 

[lienshan]

The Former Heaven trigram sequence is build in the chapter one of the King Wen hexagram sequence.
All the trigrams Earth are used to highlight the nabouring trigram of the following hexagram pair.
The (3>5) repeted trigram (4>6) Water is used to highlight the beginning of the trigram sequence.

[size=+2]03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!:
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!:
07 :!: 08 :!:
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!!
11 !!! 12 !!!
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!!
15 !:: 16 ::!
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!:
19 :!! 20 !!:
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:!
23 !:: 24 ::!
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!![/size]

The Former Heaven trigram sequence occurs in two different layouts:

Water - Wind - Heaven - Lake - Fire - Thunder - (Earth - Mountain)

Water - Lake - Heaven - Wind - Fire - Mountain - (Earth - Thunder)

The red layout is the Former Heaven viewed counterclockwise from the inside of the BaGua.
The blue layout is the Former Heaven viewed counterclockwise from the outside of the BaGua.

 

[lienshan]

The oldest known example of the King Wen sequence is from an early Western Zhou pottery pat:

Click the attached pottery.jpg here

The four hexagrams 10 - 9 - 8 - 7 are engraved counterclockwise viewed from the arrow to the right.

The two even numbered hexagrams 10 and 8 are both engraved vertical.

The two odd numbered hexagrams 9 and 7 are both engraved horisontal, but the top of hexagram 9
is pointing to the left, while the top of hexagram 7 is pointing to the right.

The Former Heaven trigram sequence of the King Wen hexagram sequence chapter one is as shown in
my previous post to be read counterclockwise with regard to the modern way of reading the King Wen
hexagram sequence from left to right, but is to be read clockwise with regard to the pottery pat order
of the hexagrams from right to left. And the even numbered hexagrams of the King Wen hexagram
sequence seem to be in wellknown vertical order, while the odd numbered hexagrams seem to be in
a shifting left - right order? The pattern might look like this ( ^ left and v right):

03 ^ :!: ::!
04
05 v :!: !!! Water
06
07 ^ :!: Earth
08
09 v !!: !!! Wind
10
11 ^ !!! Earth
12
13 v !!! !:! Heaven
14
15 ^ !:: Earth
16
17 v :!! ::! Lake
18
19 ^ :!! Earth
20
21 v !:! ::! Fire
22
23 ^ !:: Earth
24
25 v !!! ::! Thunder
26

 

[fkegan]

Hi Lienshan,

Well, to the pure all things are pure.
But the power of the context of meaning is far more impressive than any set of repetitions of ancient Shang trigram series. ompom:

So it goes

Hey Erime,
So how you coming with your work? I am working away upon my Dyad page and Triad and Tetrad explanations of the hexagrams as they come up in various contexts. So I guess the race is on, who will get their demonstration of the KWS ready to publish first. I have the dyad well underway and Triad starting up. The six tetrads will be a challenge, but with each set of Tetratkys elements I do, the more my mind grooves itself to the work, so the next goes faster.

Eagerly awaiting your appearance

 

[erime]

Hi Frank

I took some time out just to make sure my perspective is kept fresh - I had taiji symbols spinning around in my head after spending too much time on it. You must have thought I'd given up.. ha!

Just last night I came up with the last logical process which places the most significant hexagram pairs. I had a more symbolic, yet rather sound, explanation before, but now it is just the good old cardinal directions relfected symmetrically and rotated

Here are some more tasters for you - Day/NIght, Heaven/Earth, Cardinal directions, Taiji yin/yang quantities, and Former/Later Heaven Bagua Sequences are all which are required - and of course using the 8x8 chessboard idea. I have found that cardinal directions have ben playing a lot more of a role than I previously expected - interesting in itself.

The work is coming along nicely. I am very much considering doing a kind of video walkthrough, however here in China I just happen to know a man from Henan who was the last favoured student of the most learned historical expert on bagua! He lives in my city and works as an official as head of Culture and Leisure.

He doesn't speak english, unfortunately, but his wife is pretty good at it. Hmmm.... I am wondering whether he would be interested in doing a collaboration with me, but I am a bit nervous about my work being stolen - not necessarily by this man, but by any Chinese person. They see the I-Ching as such a deep part of their identity, it may be strange for a white man such as myself to turn up with an explanation as to it's mystery... I really need to improve my Mandarin so I can talk competently with the guy about stuff before I let him in on my secret.

Anyway; all in good time. Have fun interpreting .

Erime

 

[fkegan]

Hi Ermine,

Enjoy China and your study of Mandarin, always a good use of your time. There have been a number of interesting discussions here as well in the time you have been lallygagging in China. You should check out this animation by Christopher Willmot of the entire I Ching in various perspectives which may be of interest and use to you in your further research: http://www.willmot.org.uk/yijing/yimap.html

I would continue to suggest that there never was anything chaotic about the King Wen Sequence it just has no connection to the Earlier Heaven arrangement or the 8x8 chessboard. But I am sure you will want to go through your entire derivation as soon as you have it in order. Studying and working with Chris' online Yijing as a Whole should help you speed up your work. It is excellent.

Best Regards,
Frank

 

[erime]

Thanks Frank. I've just finished writing out my derivation for the 1st quarter of hexagrams so that others can read it. It's a very rough version, but hopefully it will be tangible.

Just in case it wasn't a small error on your part - I am using both the Former and Later Heaven trigram arrangements for allocating trigrams - they come as a pair, you see, and they are relevant in certain situations, depending on whether we are concerned with heaven or earth. If you have understood my derivation of the bagua sequences, maybe you would have more faith in their usefulness as a pair.

Some trigrams are allocated to the grid and others are slotted in and extrapolated afterwards according to logical rules. You see; it's all about the trigrams being selected from the bagua sequences - it kind of makes intuitive sense if one thnks about how hexagrams are created, and the ancient evidence of trigrams in the past. Anyway, you don't see at the moment, of course, but you will!.

Gosh how tempted I am to post a certain diagram open in another window on my computer screen! Must resist! All will be made known .

Erime (NOT ERMINE by the way )

 

[erime]

"little more than 'seeing patterns in the clouds'"

I hope that won't be said of my theory!

I think the Yiglobe or the decads system kind of presents the hexagrams in a certain format which can affect divination, while my explanation probably won't do such a thing.

My explanation lies in the profundity of how algebra works, or how fractal dimensions reflect one another. The algebra or dimensions I am using possibly haven't been considered as important or relevant to the KWS, so my explanation will probably be highlighting systems and translation processes which could bear other fruits.

Anyway.. back to it. :bows:

 

[fkegan]

Hi Erime, sorry about the transposition,

Algebra is a strange and mysterious branch of math. An early Egyptian text on the subject was termed occult since it dealt with the "unknown" which didn't quite click with the translator, I guess since they didn't use X. And fractal dimensions? Those are based in current computer folks confusion about what is an image upon a computer monitor and what is a real object in the world. However, seeing patterns in the clouds is a good thing.

In general, if you can't relate your work to divination or Chinese philosophy it can't be expected to be of much interest to I Ching folks.

I was aware you were using both the Earlier and Later Heaven trigram arrangements. My comments were just to alert you to the detail that they aren't a pair. Rather they represent too totally different perspectives and ways of thinking of the order of the trigrams. And of course, there remains considerable debate about what is the relationship of the trigrams to the hexagrams and the KWS.

The profundity of how algebra works? That is a thoroughly modern, Western concept which would make it tough to explain the ORIGIN of the KWS in a convincing way.

From what you have revealed of your mighty secrets so far, I can tell you not to worry about folks stealing them, even if you leave them out in plain sight. I think the critique is likely to run that you took the known I Ching, broke it up into trigrams and using the models of the Earlier and Later Arrangements found yourself a formula to relate the three sets. The problem then is what demonstration do you have to your genesis that isn't dependent upon having the result known beforehand.

Don't let your musings interfere too much with your study of Mandarin and enjoying being in China.

Frank

 

[erime]

if you can't relate your work to divination or Chinese philosophy it can't be expected to be of much interest to I Ching folks

It very much relates to Chinese philosophy - so that's good news then.

I was aware you were using both the Earlier and Later Heaven trigram arrangements. My comments were just to alert you to the detail that they aren't a pair.

Please don't state this as if it is a fact because there is no way for you to prove what you say. From your current perspective that may appear so - if you see how they are created using the same processes and calibrations as outlined in my Later Heaven bagua expose within this thread, then you will see how intimately related they are - and there we have some proof. Frank_r backed me up after he went through the explanation - I don't think he would have commended me if there wasn't anything there; I don't think he's the type to do something like that, and he barely knows me.

What is more - my latest KWS explanation shows how much more of a pair the two bagua arrangements are - they really are the 'yin and yang' of the KWS!

there remains considerable debate about what is the relationship of the trigrams to the hexagrams and the KWS.

Well; that debate will be drawn to a conclusion with the publishing of my explanation. :bows:

I think the critique is likely to run that you took the known I Ching, broke it up into trigrams and using the models of the Earlier and Later Arrangements found yourself a formula to relate the three sets. The problem then is what demonstration do you have to your genesis that isn't dependent upon having the result known beforehand.

Even if I did that , there is nothing wrong walking from the estuary up-river to the the source. You are suggesting that I have found a pretty pattern, but there is no reduction to a simple framwework. There is of course - as I said; cardinal directions. These are fundamentally important. Remember; these people who made these systems were keen astronomers. Grids and angles were their bread and butter.

Don't let your musings interfere too much with your study of Mandarin and enjoying being in China.

Of course not - one of the reasons I've been so slow - may I add that I am in tropical China. That makes it even more difficult to knuckle down!

Now, I am in a charitable mood tonight, so I have attached a picture which could help anyone who may be interested in trying to play catch-up. Now; just look at those corner hexagram pairs... irresistible, eh? :bows:

 

[fkegan]

Hi Erime,

Perhaps you would profit by re-reading Wilhelm Book II Chapter II about the discussions of the TRIGRAMS. These have nothing to do with the overall ordering of the HEXAGRAMS in say, the King Wen Sequence.

As to the proof of the total distinction of the Earlier and Later Heaven arrangements of the trigrams, they come from vastly different time periods and refer to totally different organizing principles. I have tried to think of a suitable Western example, but wait, we still haven't made that leap to a totally new math perspective. Our computers are still stuck in the morass of simple math notions that went obsolete in China 3 millennia ago. Choosing speed with dumb math principles over intelligent organization from first principles.

However, it is a new century and a new millennium so there is still hope. I went back and re-read your initial post with your system of using trigrams associated to directions to sort of fit into various Chinese notions and then sort of generate stuff. I assume your current work is crisper and cleaner than that. Although, any system assuming both trigram arrangements and working to transpose them somehow to yield the KWS we all start with is not going to knock Proust or anyone else into a cocked hat.

I assume you have read my Flux Tome pages and my four Pythagorean perspectives that form the decads and thus explain the King Wen Sequence from ancient Chinese principles. So far your work is only of interest to those using Western math and Western thinking and assuming the KWS is without inherent ordering.

But nice to see you keep at your work, hopefully now with less .

Regards,
Frank

 

[erime]

So far your work is only of interest to those using Western math and Western thinking and assuming the KWS is without inherent ordering.

How do you know? I haven't let slip what the key processes are - and they are pretty simple and basic.
Regarding your or Wilhelm's grasp of the systems underlying the bagua circles or the KWS Iching, I have no reason to believe that either of you have any conviction as to what those systems are, or what those systems aren't.
If the shoe fits without squeezing and twisting, then who is going to suggest it is not correct?

If a key fits a lock - whether the original key, or a lock-pick, it matters not, right? The door is opened and everyone has access - as long as everyone has lock-picking skills. In this case those skills are merely the ability to carry out logical reflections, transpositions, allocate dualistic properties, etc. - in other words use the patterns we see in nature - such as in a fern leaf, a snail shell, transition from day to night, etc. You see; no esoteric knowledge neded really - just universal, easily observed natural principles.

Now then; any ideas concerning the image I attached before? Did you have a look at it?

 

[fkegan]

The King Wen Sequence is an elegant Chinese philosophical system not a magic square!

How do you know? I haven't let slip what the key processes are - and they are pretty simple and basic.
Regarding your or Wilhelm's grasp of the systems underlying the bagua circles or the KWS Iching, I have no reason to believe that either of you have any conviction as to what those systems are, or what those systems aren't.
If the shoe fits without squeezing and twisting, then who is going to suggest it is not correct?

If a key fits a lock - whether the original key, or a lock-pick, it matters not, right? The door is opened and everyone has access - as long as everyone has lock-picking skills. In this case those skills are merely the ability to carry out logical reflections, transpositions, allocate dualistic properties, etc. - in other words use the patterns we see in nature - such as in a fern leaf, a snail shell, transition from day to night, etc. You see; no esoteric knowledge neded really - just universal, easily observed natural principles.
Now then; any ideas concerning the image I attached before? Did you have a look at it?

An interesting idea, however, with regards to the Heaven, Human, Earth distinctions one finds within the hexagrams and trigrams by way of their natural, obvious, and complete divisions in to 3 neat sections, this doesn't seem to apply to the 8x8 64 hexagrams, whose most obvious numerical leanings are towards the number 2.

This means that we default to Heaven and Earth with regards to the Iching as a whole. So where is the Human in all this? It's you the observer/user! By interacting with the Iching you complete the system by becoming the conduit between Heaven and Earth whose qualities are stored within the Iching as a whole.

Hi Erime,
Let me address you on your own thread and let Joe and his Yi-Globe have his. I still believe you should spend some time with his work as you do share some fundamental principles, including using only contemporary Western thinking and math in your work. But that is your choice.
How do I know your work? From your posts and such! You think you keep it secret with all your mystery game? Please! Reminds me of how I became interested in desalination in elementary school. My father mentioned at the breakfast table there was an executive of a major corporation bragging about his secret desalination process. He said it was a freezing process operated at 31 degrees F. My father then filled in the rest of his secret process since sea water is 3500ppm dissolved salts and doesn't freeze at 31 degrees except under vacuum reduced pressure. This would allow the process to derive pure water from sea water by both vaporization and freezing, which then could be used to convert each other into potable water. Simple, as was announced a few years later when the process was made public.

The same with your work. It is not that novel in light of other contemporary folks working with the published diagrams, algebra courses in school and standard notions of trigrams, cardinal directions and available planets etc. Ultimately, it is all computer thinking obsolete in China by dawn of the first millennium BCE in our calendar system.
The factors or powers of 2 so important to you are just an artifact of a six-place gua matrix with a single focus line. It counts as two lines when you think in terms of the later notion of Yin and Yang, in no way part of the origin of the King Wen Sequence.

You mix Shang era notions with current math transformations and magic square algebra and convince yourself this "must have been" what the Chinese did too. But they have their own philosophy without the slightest interest in "barbarian" toys and notions. For example, you can not construct a Taiji without knowing all about perpendicular bisectors; however, they don't use any of the right angles so important in all our constructions. They are just background to the sine-wave curves of the Taiji which became so important in 20th century physics.

Your imaginings of what can and can't be known or proved are simply reflections of your lack of scholarship. There is always an issue when we make up our own system: Is this only our own personal musings? Or actually represents a fundamental understanding.

Doubt, applied to one's own work is most important. You have not yet achieved that level of objectivity. I suspect you have not read my Flux Tome pages or managed to reach beyond the fog of your own a priori expectations to have any idea of what is necessary to explain what was novel and practical in 1100 BCE. In general, as I studied in history of technology class, there are 4 millennia between the first introduction of a novel technology and its secular use. Until then it is only known in sacred form with ritual used to keep the technique alive. So, it is just another few centuries until the KWS will be common knowledge. Until then it is just known as a divination technique.

I suggested you work with the others operating at your level of understanding since they are birds of your feather. To claim any connection to the details of the King Wen Sequence without any understanding of the Chinese digits and decad numbering system or being able to take the I Ching as presented and pick up on the tiny details showing it is organized in sets of 10 hexagrams you are nowhere. Even though the modern math would simplify it into a Chinese checker board of 8x8 structural pairs, that is only a Western notion and makes your work obvious and derivative, even if you think you have kept the novel twist secret.

Most folks would just dismiss your work as not relevant to any practical I Ching perspective, which would be quite accurate. It also involves throwing together things of interest in modern computer sci student dorms. Generally, that work is mostly started under chemical intoxication and has no interest to sober adults.

Study your Mandarin, enjoy tropical China and talk to the local fellow who can help you without worrying he might steal your valuable secrets. Perhaps he can show you how the Chinese have done that sort of work perhaps a few centuries ago or more and you can borrow his insights to improve your own.

Frank