Is it really the job or him?

[Trojina]

I agree entirely with Martins original posts, he was being diplomatic.

What is not diplomatic is claiming to know the future of people you know nothing about.

I see on another thread your gifts have now extended to predicting when someone will receive money !

This is not prejudice against differing ways of using the Yi, different systems. Jesed has been doing that here for some time, but he makes it clear he is using a certain system of calculation, not claiming godlike omniscient powers like you are. Also he is careful in his answers even when being somewhat directive, such that its clear the choice is really in the hands of the querant.

If you are going to make these 'predictions' why are you not sticking to what you agreed with Rosada that you would mention in future what method you were using. On Moonrises thread about money you have not done so.

You said there she will get money on the 13th and 14th September ! So tell us how do you know that ??? I doubt its the I Ching is it !

 

[willowfox]

To martin,

first, I suggest that you read Wilhelm's interpretation and then you will see that nothing has been made up by myself and secondly, you are an extremely rude creature. It is not only your comments that *piss* me off, but your stupid, arrogant attitude as well.

 

[Trojina]

Er well I can't recall where in Wilhelm specific dates are mentioned where a person may receive money ? Nor was it ever clear why Cherry would find a job within 3 months if she left her current one. You never could say how you came to that conclusion.


I'm glad Martin bought this issue up with you.

 

[willowfox]

To trojan,

as a matter of fact you should check how Blofeld finds the weeks and months when things forecast may happen, read page 225 and you will see how it is done using the I Ching.
Another way of finding out the date is to use the Plum Flower Mind I Ching but I never mastered this method.

I cast a horary astrology chart for moonrise and that is how I obtained an *answer*.

Very sorry to inform you that I am a mere mortal who is certainly not claiming godlike omniscient powers, thank you very much.

 

[luz]

first, I suggest that you read Wilhelm's interpretation and then you will see that nothing has been made up by myself and secondly, you are an extremely rude creature. It is not only your comments that *piss* me off, but your stupid, arrogant attitude as well.

It seems that I, as well as many other people here, have a very old version of Wilhelm, we seem to be missing the whole chapter on horary astrology !! That is probably why we can't find the source of your answers.

I think it's nice of you to go out of our way to find answers to people's questions in the forum but it will really be good practice to specify where you get your answers because most of us are interested in learning about the I Ching, and we might get confused by thinking the IC speaks in such specific terms.

And also, don't call people stupid.. it's rather rude.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi there, Cherrypicka here...again

I just thought I'd update you with a dream I woke up from this morning. I was travelling on the upwards escalator at the railway station to go home with my large black suitcase.

As I travelled on the escalator, I was looking carefully at something in my hands, when I looked up, my big black suitcase was nowhere to be seen. I looked for it everywhere but there was no sign of it. I told the railway staff and they had a perfunctory search of the immediate area. Then they shoved someone else's suitcase at me, telling me I'd have to use this one, and hurry because the train because was leaving in a few seconds. So I got on the train and travelled home.

On the way I looked in the suitcase, and it was indeed someone else's suitcase with all kinds of stuff I didn't recognize. I didn't look through it carefully because actually I didn't want this unknown persons' stuff and kept wondering how I'd manage without all my own things - this is quite out of character for me because I LOVE picking through other peoples' things (e.g. rummage sales etc) and prefer them to new items. However, I was so relieved when I woke up that it was a dream.

Does the meaning of this correlate in any way with the latest or earlier hexagrams?

This is an interesting intro to the dream: "I was looking carefully at something in my hands.." In your hands, not someone else's.

You were carrying someone else's baggage, it sounds like. Interesting that it was black, which likely suggests that it's been previously unknown to you. Were you traveling up or down the escalator?

 

[bruce_g]

Hiya Rosada,

“Follow your bliss” is a line I pinched from Joseph Campbell, and he used it often in his writing and lectures. It’s easy to understand how this may be interpreted as “follow your egotistical inclinations”, but that isn’t the intended meaning. It’s more like: weigh your heart, your dream and vision, and your most valuable priorities, and then follow that. For many, leaving a job or career to be with their loved one is following their bliss, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here.

 

[bruce_g]

"I was travelling on the upwards escalator.." D'oh! Read, Bruce, read!

I think this feature is an important one.

 

[jesed]

Hi trojan and Lightangel

Please, don't mix the things.

The reference to Wilhelm (in willowfox's comment to Martin) was not about astrological calculations, but about the meaning of 32 in the sphere of relationships. And willowfox is quite close to traditional meaning of 32: marriage (not matter if "legal" marriage or not)

The reference to astrological calculations is not based on Wilhelm, neither in traditional teachings, but in later developments. There are several ....najia, plum blossom...etc.

In fact.. these later development was intented to avoid "cloudy" interpretations...to give straightforward and accurate interpretations

Wilhelm, in his second book, talk a little bit about this later developments; and he despict them. That's why he doesn't explain them.

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

Hi lightangel,

well don't worry about the missing chapter, I'm sure Wilhelm would have included it had the ancient Chinese used it.

But now you know that I also use horary astrology to gain an answer, surely the mystery of the source of some of my answers has been solved.

Thanks for saying that using the word stupid is rude because it was intended to be.

 

[willowfox]

To all those folks that are having problems understanding what I wrote about hex 32,

please read page 126 of Wilhelm's I Ching and then you will be enlightened.(especially martin).

Also, NO astrological calculations were used in answering hex 32.

Thanks for all the goodwill and support that you have shown.

 

[Trojina]

For all you know the 32 could have been referring to a long partnership with her new friend, the one she was asking about, rather than her existing partner. The point is you don't know.

(We know no astrological calculations were used to get to 32, we aren't that dumb !)

Jesed I'm quite well aware of the difference between hex 32 in the I Ching,( which I might add rarely has much to do with marriage in my experience) and astrology. It is Willowfox who has the comprehension difficulties.

Lightangel, I think was not being literal in asking where the chapter on horary astrology was in Wilhelm but sarcastic (I think) this is after all an I Ching forum. Of course she knows there is no section on horary astrology in Wilhelm.

Willowfox
I don't know much about horary astrology, the astrology I have done always requires the time, date and location of the persons birth and a comparison of that with current transits and progressions to the natal chart. Even with these details it is ludicrous to suppose any reputable astrloger would find a planetary aspect affecting the querent to such a narrow degree of focus that he could say 'you will get money on Tuesday'. There may be an aspect indicating increase pleasure/harmony/security etc but it is not possible to be so specific. Of course you read this nonsense in newspapers etc but its just made up. Astrological prediction if that word is to be used requires a high degree of precision for an individual chart - even then trends (not facts) are indicated, it is never 100% certain how a planetary influence will manifest in a persons psyche and life.

If people want to believe in cast iron predictions its up to them I suppose. Just need to point out these cast iron predictions have absolutely nothing to do with the I Ching, not in my view at least.

 

[jesed]

Trojan

You are thinking in western astrology.... willowfox and myself are using Yijing methods that includes chinese astrology

Chines astrology is not based on "planets" neither in real stars (even if in english translation, they call some energies "stars" to made the easy to western people)

"Just need to point out these cast iron predictions have absolutely nothing to do with the I Ching, not in my view at least."
That's exactly what I'm talking about. The factv that you don't know/use this other methods for interpret hexagrams doesn't mean they are useless.

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

Western horary astrology is the art of getting an answer by casting a chart for the time a question is asked. It's like a birth chart for the question. It is not necessary to know the birth info of the person making the inquiry. Very different rules apply for analyzing a horary chart from analyzing a birthchart. For example, the ascendant, not the Sun, represents the person asking the question. Further very specfic answers can be gotten from a horary chart, particularly time and location. For example, if a person wanted to know, "Where is my missing object?" a horary chart would have one planet for the person and another for the object and where these planets are -in which signs and houses - and if they are joining or separating would reveal where you should look - in the house, away from home, high, low, left, right, and whether the owner and the object will be reunited. The number of degrees between the moon and the next planet are used to tell timing. If the moon is 3 degrees away from the planet ruling a new job the astrologer can predict the client will get a new job in three somethings, the sign and house the moon is in will determine if it is 3 days, 3 weeks or 3 months.
Naturally there is as much debate among astrologers about how to interpret horary charts as there is here on the meaning of the IChing lines.

"Follow your bliss" is wonderful guidance. I was just pointing out that sometimes however, this life empowering insight can be misunderstood or misused as an excuse for wriggling out of commitments. When one is truly following their bliss it often evolves that there is a mutually acceptable way of renegotiating commitments. An example would be a dinner invitation one has accepted and then wishes to not attend. One possibility is to simply not show up, claiming one is allowed to "follow their bliss." Actually the person here is following their fear. If they are truly following their bliss they are usually not afraid to make the call. If they do call - here is where the magic comes in - it will usually turn out it that it works out well for the host too, so it is seen that following one's bliss is not selfish, but actually makes things work better for everyone. So true following one's bliss is a a grand and noble philosophy.

 

[martin]

willowfox and myself are using Yijing methods that includes chinese astrology

What I understand from Willowfox's posts is that she uses the standard Yijing methods that most of us use (and my incredibly rude and stupid comments were about how she uses them ).
As an extra and independent of that she sometimes uses horary astrology, Chinese or western, that's not clear.

Is that correct, Willowfox?

I experimented with (western) horary astrology a bit in the past. Don't know what to make of it. Because this came up now I made a horoscope (haven't done that for a long time) for this conversation - or how do you call it? - with you, a few hours ago.
Ruler of ascendant and descendant in opposition, aha.
But the moon was void-of-course! Hmm, we will see ...

 

[Trojina]

Scratching head here Why is astrology which uses movement of the sun and planets around the zodiac, nodes of the moon etc etc seen as Western ? Indian astologers go by planets and signs in their work. You mean if its not Chinese its 'western', is that a convention ? Jesed ?

Scratching head harder - as far as I'm concerned astrology is about the movement of the planets in the cosmos. The Oxford English dictionary defines astrology as " the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as an influence on human affairs

 

[martin]

Yes, astrologers in India and Nepal also do planets and signs. Although, from what I have seen (don't know much about it, only watched them work in Nepal a few times) it seems quite different from the astrology that is practiced in Europe and the US, in the 'western' tradition.
The 'western' approach has changed a lot in the twentieth century, btw, with the advent of 'humanistic' or 'person centered' astrology, promoted by Rudhyar and others.

But the Chinese, they do rats and snakes and dogs! No planets there as far as I know, but there are 'signs'. And the word 'horoscope', from hora (hour) + skopos (watching), would also make sense in the Chinese tradition. They are also 'reading the time'.

 

[willowfox]

Hi rosada,

thanks for explaining to the folks what horary astrology is all about. As for the time used, the chart is set up for the exact time when the person or third party (the astrologer) understands the question asked. The client could have thought of the question many days before seeing an astrologer but that does not matter.

When I did the chart for moonrise, the moon was trine (120 degrees aspect) to mars the ruler of the 2nd house his/her money. Jupiter, co-ruler of the first house could not be used, therefore the moon was taken as co-significator of the person asking the question. The moon would complete the aspect in 1 degree and 28 minutes. As the moon was in a cardinal sign and a succedent house, the time is weeks, therefore 1 degree 28 minutes is about 10 days into the future, ie, 13th or 14th of September.
Also, mars was in the 7th house, the house of others partners etc indicating that he/she would be able to do business with others and the moon was in the 11th indicating business with clients.

 

[willowfox]

To martin,

I use the western type of horary astrology, I have tried the Indian method but got no where with it. I also use the I Ching.

In your question, what was the sign on the ascendant? Because the only oppositions that I see are mercury 180 deg. uranus but separating and sun 180 deg. uranus approaching.

 

[willowfox]

To trojan,

western astrologly is different from Indian in the way the chart, houses, aspects are used. Chinese astology is completely different from both the western and Indian methods, they don't use planets, houses, aspects etc.

Sorry to disagree with you but I knew exactly what hex 32 was refering to. A partnership of already longstanding. If you check the I Ching you will find that it mentions that the new friend in question will only attach himself to her for a short while. Hex 32 is not a relationship of short standing. The image of Heng (32) is the Tao of marriage, a long standing partnership is just like being married.

I suggest that you go and browse google for horary sites, then you will get a much better idea of horary astrology. Read some of the questions that have been posed and the answers that they have received, you will be greatly enlightened.

 

[heylise]

I searched through hex. 32 and cannot find anything at all about marriage. In one line man and woman are mentioned, but nothing there either about marriage.

In many commentaries marriage is mentioned, and one of them is Wilhelm. An excellent commentary, or interpretation, but still a commentary. According to Wilhelm, or to his teacher Lao, 32 is about marriage. But it is NOT mentioned in the Yi itself. So it is purely their own interpretation, and it dates from a time when marriage was seen differently than now.

If I wanted my question answered with astrology, I would go to an astrology site. If I want it answered by I Ching, I go to an I Ching site. And for both, I would go to a site where several people can see the answer. People who can tell me if the answer I got makes sense. Who will give their reaction if it doesn't, or if it has flaws - or if it is an excellent one. On an astrology site, people will be there who know about astrology.

And here, people know about I Ching.

LiSe

 

[willowfox]

To heylise,

people ask questions because they need an answer, therefore it does not matter how one arrives at the answer as long as the answer is given,and it is clear. So it does not matter whether one asks the question on an astrology site or an I Ching site, does it? Combining the two methods gives a more in depth answer to the question. I cannot see that this is a problem, some of us wish to help others by trying to sort out their problems for them. I, for one did not come on this site to bicker about trival matters, that this method is wrong, that method is not pure I Ching or some other silliness. Help others and stop finding non important problems.

Wilhelm wrote a book which millions of people read and use when answering hexagrams, I certainly believe what he has to say about hex 32, or do you have a better and different interpretation of hex 32?

 

[heylise]

"I never decided what they should or should not do, I just advised them that certain wrong actions will bring about dire results. This was for their own good, why make people suffer when you can be of sevice and help them to make the right decisions."

"it does not matter how one arrives at the answer as long as the answer is given"

Wow! High time that you write your own I Ching, so you can tell people what YOU think they should do. Without any inconvenient remarks from anyone.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

Willowfox, I think you do great readings. There is just one thing which troubles me, and obviously others too, that is your strong conviction that you know the right answer and can give it as firm as that.
Just imagine that you make a small mistake, and it turns out in a different way. Will you be there to offer a shoulder to cry on? Or maybe a place of shelter if it is really disastrous? No, you are far away, they don't even know your name.

That is why most people here try to give answers which make the querent think for him/herself. Your certainty of knowing the right answer is the only issue here. Nothing else. I did read anwers you gave, which did give this responsibility to the querent, the responsibility to take his/her life in his/her own hands. And I really liked what you did there.

LiSe

 

[martin]

In your question, what was the sign on the ascendant? Because the only oppositions that I see are mercury 180 deg. uranus but separating and sun 180 deg. uranus approaching.

I didn't save the chart and forgot the exact time. I also didn't try to analyze it in depth (my horary astrology is rusty anyway and it has never been "my thing"). But the ascendant was Aquarius. The rulers of the ascendant and the descendant, Uranus and Sun, were approaching an opposition. It's nearly full now that I write this.
Some astrologers prefer to you use only classical rulers (Saturn instead of Uranus) but me as Uranus and you as Sun seems to fit our conversation quite well. It's perhaps also interesting that I have these two in a close conjunction in my horocope.
The moon was about to leave the sign Capricorn and void of course.

 

[bruce_g]

Fwiw, marriage as an enduring union of the sexes is what Wilhelm points to in 32, and that is a wonderful metaphor for what endures, self renews and self perpetuates. But it is a metaphor, and not always meant to be applied literally. The question becomes: marriage of what? The same for “standing firm in ones direction”: Who’s direction and standing firm in what? These things are not spelled out in a literal fashion. It is up to the person inquiring of Yi, possibly with some assistance from others, to find not only the meaning of the hexagram but what to apply it to.

That said, I place high value on an enduring marriage. I believe it is meant to be a holy and spiritual union. But just as important is making good decisions which lead up to an enduring marriage. To feel obligated to accommodate your partner’s every wish, even at the expense of your own convictions, doesn’t make for a good beginning.

 

[willowfox]

Hi bruce,

Cherry and her long standing partner have been together for about 20 years, so it is certainly not a beginning. Anyway the question was about a relationship with a young guy at her place of work and the final hex was 32.
But the enduring union fits like a glove in the answer to this question.

 

[willowfox]

Hi martin,

well sun opposition uranus explains it all, we can't see eye to eye. We will have to agree to disagree. I always knew I had a sunny personality?

 

[willowfox]

Hi heylise,

I have already tried writing a book on a different subject but I threw it in the bin, why? I am not good enough to be a writer.
Well, how can I defend myself here? Sometimes, I just feel that the answer that I am giving is going to happen. I have made mistakes in the past, I am only good when I am right. Other times I do indeed tone down my answer. I am sorry but I can't change who I am, I am a tiger and I will never be able to get rid of my stripes.
Thanks for you interest.

 

[RindaR]

Cherrypicka's relationship with herself is of even longer standing, and part of that is her desire to fulfull herself by using her specific gifts. As she read her response from Yi I hope she listened to her inner response, her gut feeling - that's where she will know which relationship was signified.

Saying you *feel* something specific will happen, and therefore someone else should definitely do so-and-so is skipping a knowledge of another's deepest values, and assuming that those values are the same as yours. There is no way one can know all the aspects of the heart of another, or how another will value that something.

I think it can be very tempting to give and receive concrete advice. My experience has been that neither giver nor recipient grows much in such a situation until the recipient gets sick of that kind of dependence and breaks off the relationship.

Rinda