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Line 6: high point or endgame?

dobro p

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Line 6 in a lot of hexagrams falls into one of two categories often: high point or endgame. High point refers to the situation imaged in the hexagram at its high point - it's the completion or perfection or peak of the main idea in the hexagram. Endgame refers to those Line 6's which image a fading, or transforming, or departure point of the situation from the main idea of the hexagram. Usually the high point line 6's are in the nature of 'congratulations', and the endgame line 6's are in the nature of a warning or heads up. But sometimes it's different.

11.6 is an example of endgame: the lovely energy pervading the situation is reaching an end, and so 11.6 is a 'warning' line.

14.6 is an example of high point: the 'big having' of the whole hexagram has reached the heaven realm here, and life is blessed.

18.6 is an example of endgame which happens to be auspicious. This one's really interesting to me. The main idea of 18 for me is that decay and disorder are revealed, but that this is an auspicious or positive thing, and many of the individual lines echo that overall positive outlook. So you would expect an endgame line 6 to be negative in some way. But 18.6 has a golden outlook it seems to me, even though there's no overt valuation attached to the line.

Your turn.
 

magictortoise

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18(6) has puzzled me also. I have tried to understand it this way: Since line six is archetypically the line of the sage who stands outside the affairs of the world(lines 2-5) then perhaps in 18 it means that for the sage his 'work' is done.It also could mean, as stated in the Wilhelm commentary on p. 481, that the work of the sage is not limited to one era, but for all time.

Ken
 

hilary

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I'll play. 30.6 - a high point and departure point? We've honoured the presence of confusing signs, recognised the glow of inner light, chosen our perspective on transience, seen with compassion... and now the king's making good use of marching out, executing the chief and not the prisoners. It seems clarity of perception naturally tips over into action in the end. Or perhaps if you spread light far enough, sooner or later you have to engage with darkness.

I'd think of 18.6 as a turnaround, too. You've spent 5 lines taking responsibility for corruption and working within relationships (with the living or the dead) to restore harmony. At the 6th, I think you're told to change focus.
 

dobro p

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I'll play. 30.6 - a high point and departure point? We've honoured the presence of confusing signs, recognised the glow of inner light, chosen our perspective on transience, seen with compassion... and now the king's making good use of marching out, executing the chief and not the prisoners. It seems clarity of perception naturally tips over into action in the end. Or perhaps if you spread light far enough, sooner or later you have to engage with darkness.

Busting your enemies by picking off the leader and pardoning the followers isn't darkness, not if you're a king; it's radiant. 30.6 is a high point, I think.
 

Trojina

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I think 13.6 is odd as an endpoint, a luke warm end to fellowship. After all the emotion in line line 5 theres simply meeting those in the outskirts - and the advise seems to be to expect no in depth connection with others here - just hang out with them, seems kinda empty, perhaps i read it wrong - perhaps its meant to be a celebration - anyway as an end line I feel its a bit of a damp squid, lol
 

hilary

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Aren't squid usually quite damp?
:rofl:

30.6 - yes, the king's light, the chief who needs executing is presumably dark. You could actually see the lines as getting closer and closer to darkness as we move up the hexagram.

13.6 - this is pure guesswork, but looking at the previous lines we seem to have got dangerously close to an outbreak of war. The outskirts altar was a place for victory offerings, and I wonder (based on no evidence at all) whether it might not also be a good place to solemnise alliances, outside the boundaries of your town. There's enough space out here for both of us. 'No regrets' - maybe quite a lot of relief?
 

rosada

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The memorizing treads hold some interesting observations about line 6.
 

Trojina

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Aren't squid usually quite damp?
:rofl:

13.6 - this is pure guesswork, but looking at the previous lines we seem to have got dangerously close to an outbreak of war. The outskirts altar was a place for victory offerings, and I wonder (based on no evidence at all) whether it might not also be a good place to solemnise alliances, outside the boundaries of your town. There's enough space out here for both of us. 'No regrets' - maybe quite a lot of relief?

:rofl: damp squib then - mm interesting take on 13.6 hadn't thought of it like that though it seemed to me the people in the lines 3 and 4 never got anywhere near actual fighting, just hiding in bushes and riding on ramparts, i thought their actions were mainly defensive rather than aggressive - still a firework party on the outskirts could ease relations - as long as it doesn't rain
 

dobro p

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13 is a bit weird generally. The hexagram's about fellowship, and yet all the individual lines are about pre-fellowship, problematic fellowship, or post-fellowship. I see 13.6 as the sequential echo of 13.1 - 13.1's about the time before full fellowship obtains, and 13.6 is about the time when fellowship's starting to wane - endgame, definitely.

You know, the only really positive picture in 13 is the main text. The hexagram presents a rather dim view of fellowship overall, don't you think? lol So were the sages pessimistic, or were they saying: "Fellowship's great; but any variation on fellowship is necessarily problematic."
 

heylise

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To me lines don't have any sequence (just my view). They talk about different realms. Line 6 is the line of the sage, outside ties and other human affairs. For the sage (or the top line), 13 has a lot to do with accepting everyone as he/she happens to be. Even when they are way below his level, or with totally different ideas or whatever. I agree with Hilary: "There's enough space out here for both of us". So it can be lukewarm, or even negative, not accepting others, or it can be bigger or wider love than all the other lines. 'IF' you make that union in the meadow, then there is no regret. But if not, well then you get that regret.

There is a big difference with line 3, the one of the heart, the one most of all lines emotionally involved. That one gets totally upset about 'them', filled to the brim with emotions.

Same with all top lines. They all include the good sides of not being committed, and the bad sides.

LiSe
 

dobro p

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Isn't there a difference between 'not being committed' and the transcendence and non-attachment of the sage? Not being committed is a weakness; not being attached is a strength.
 

dobro p

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To me lines don't have any sequence (just my view). They talk about different realms. Line 6 is the line of the sage, outside ties and other human affairs.

Sequence is just one way of looking at it. Transcendence (if I understand your idea correctly) is another way. Both of these ideas have the sense of 'beyond the main idea of the hexagram' in some way. And both of these ideas contrast with the idea of line 6 as a high point, or fulfillment, of the main idea. Like 50.6 - that's not beyond the main idea of the Ting, it's the apogee of it.

As for the idea of the sage being associated with Line 6, well yes, sometimes, but not always. I'd say that *if* the sage comes into it, then he/she appears in Line 6. I see no sign of the sage in 45.6, for example.
 

my_key

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As for the idea of the sage being associated with Line 6, well yes, sometimes, but not always. I'd say that *if* the sage comes into it, then he/she appears in Line 6. I see no sign of the sage in 45.6, for example.

45.6 claims to be without fault. If you are doing the best you can and being as wise as you can be to be without fault is this not a sign of the sage at work?

Mike
 

dobro p

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45.6 claims to be without fault. If you are doing the best you can and being as wise as you can be to be without fault is this not a sign of the sage at work?

I don't think you have to be a sage to be without fault as you describe it.
 

Trojina

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Isn't there a difference between 'not being committed' and the transcendence and non-attachment of the sage? Not being committed is a weakness; not being attached is a strength.

Thats the whole point i think Lise was making - the 6th line can range through the whole spectrum of detachment from the spiritual detachment of the sage to plain lack of interest through non attachment to outcome. I think i saw a case here where someone was fretting over relations with their landlord and asking about his mind set got 18.6 - well he was not fretting about the issues they were !

The Yi is going to answer you where you're at and within context. I've seen 18.6 mean someone just has no to cause to be bothered about something (like the landlord) to meaning someone is no longer needing to work in the outer world of 'putting things right' - they can tend to their own development .
 

mudpie

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It is interesting about 45.6 though...it would seem line 5 was that of "the sage" since evryone gathers round that leader there....and yet, in large groupings, very often the one with the most to offer in terms of leadership, innovation, inspiration, etc. is often not appreciated, not right away...or maybe not after awhile.

It takes a certain amount of charisma and showmanship to get a crowd to gather around you. The one is 45.6 is maybe impeccable, but misunderstood by the crowd. I think of Jesus. Or oprah! sometimes you get a big following and then inevitably, the tide of public opinion starts to get negative...ie "who does he/she think he/she is??" Oprah weeps and wails all the way to the bank. and jesus wept too.
when it comes to crowds, being at the top of the heap is not a very enviable position for long.
 

dobro p

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Listener, I always thought the weeping in 45.6 was cuz the time of gathering for great purposes was passing or past - 'oh no! we can't do it anymore!' Endgame, in other words. You can try to map the idea of 'sage' onto that line, but I'd rather not cuz the Yi doesn't mention sages in 45.6 lol.
 

getojack

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High point or endgame?

Hexagrams are like sex...
If the hexagram doesn't reach climax by line 5, line 6 is the climax.
If the hexagram reaches climax by line 5, line 6 is anticlimactic.
 

Sparhawk

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Hexagrams are like sex...
If the hexagram doesn't reach climax by line 5, line 6 is the climax.
If the hexagram reaches climax by line 5, line 6 is anticlimactic.

So..., I suppose line 3 are usually foreplay gone awry, right? :rofl:
 

rosada

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dobro p

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Maybe I should add a third category to line 6 categories: spiritual. It'd make Lise happy too. :)

53.6 doesn't seem like the epitome of gradual advance, nor does it seem like endgame, but it definitely spiritualizes the idea of 53. Yes? No?
 

getojack

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53.6 is a climax... or in your nomenclature, a high point.
 

hollis

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53 line 6 is enigmatic, does that spiritualize an idea?

Endgame, or highpoint, 51 line 6?
 

gene

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18 6 is what it is because of the emphasis placed on the necessity of getting to work on something, and the potential that can be created by doing so. Line 5 is the place of the ruler, but when someone studies the I Ching, and works on his/her character, there is no end to the places that we can go. Ultimately we go beyond the physical realm of kings and queens, and delve into the spiritual levels. In Taoist I Ching, we reach such a level in the development of our chi, our life force, our inner understanding, that we leave the physical level and are relegated to the realm of the immortals.

Gene
 
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gene

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Hexagram 53 line six has a similar emphasis as hexagram 18, being made up of the same two trigrams, just in different order. In both, the emphasis is on self development, among other things, but especially about self development.

Gene
 

dobro p

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53.6 is a climax... or in your nomenclature, a high point.

Yup, it's the high point, the highest point that 'gradual advancing' attains. But in that it talks about 'ritual' (the word I use in my version), it seems to me to have a spiritual overtone. No?
 

dobro p

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18 6 is what it is because of the emphasis placed on the necessity of getting to work on something, and the potential that can be created by doing so. Line 5 is the place of the ruler, but when someone studies the I Ching, and works on his/her character, there is no end to the places that we can go. Ultimately we go beyond the physical realm of kings and queens, and delve into the spiritual levels. In Taoist I Ching, we reach such a level in the development of our chi, our life force, our inner understanding, that we leave the physical level and are relegated to the realm of the immortals.

Gene

It sounds like you're seeing 18.6 as having a spiritual nature, primarily. Is that right?
 

gene

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Dobro

All the hexagrams, all the lines, are written on various levels. They mean many different things depending on the level they are looked at from. So yes, it has a spiritual nature.
 

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