Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 18. Ku / Work on What Has Been Spoiled [Decay]

[rosada]

18.3

Nine in the third place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
There will be a little remorse. No great blame.

This discribes a man who proceeds a little too energetically in
righting the mistakes of the past. Now and then, as a result,
minor discords and annoyances will surely develop. But too
much energy is better than too little. Therefore, although he
may at times have some slight cause for regret, he remains
free of any serious blame.

This line is at the beginning of the nuclear trigram Chen,
the eldest son, hence the image of work on what has been
spoiled by the father. The line is too strong to be in the strong
place of transition. Therefore it might be thought that the
situation would lead to mistakes, but good intention com-
pensates in this case.
-Wilhelm

 

[lightofreason]

IC+

Line 3
"In righting the mistakes of the past, the heart can get too carried away. No harm done."

with/from correcting comes containing/controlling - we can be excessive in our protecting (emotional focus of water is on issues of rejection, being rejected, being the rejector)

Line position 3 is 'ruled' by 15 and so the focus on modesty, levelling out etc leading us into being too heavy handed in that act in the context of correcting.

Chris.

 

[martin]

18.3
'a little too energetically'? (Wilhelm)
Mercury in Gemini or third house - much mental, 'nervous' energy. Many ideas.
Very active, might try to run too fast. Another potential problem is lack of focus, scattering, a tendency to do too many things at the same time.
Correcting Saturn in Sagittarius or house 9 - it could represent dogmatic beliefs, for instance - needs a less jumpy approach?

But don't ask me how to do it, I have Mercury in ... right, Gemini!

 

[dobro p]

Line position 3 is 'ruled' by 15 and so the focus on modesty, levelling out etc leading us into being too heavy handed in that act in the context of correcting.

Chris.

Is that why you talk about 'heart' in 18.3? Cuz it's ruled by 15? And why would 'levelling out' lead us to be too heavy handing in that act?

See, my Yi talks about 'smallness' of some sort in 18.3. I'm wondering why you're talking about 'heart' instead.

 

[lightofreason]

Is that why you talk about 'heart' in 18.3? Cuz it's ruled by 15?

no, not directly. With 15 etc we are dealing with unconscious seeding of meanings. 18 covers summing of qualities of 07,15,23 in that these are the actualised lines of the hexagram - thius comes from a wave perspective (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html )

And why would 'levelling out' lead us to be too heavy handing in that act?
See, my Yi talks about 'smallness' of some sort in 18.3. I'm wondering why you're talking about 'heart' instead.

you are focusing on HSIAO - look at HUI, Repent and its 'change of heart' focus.

The GENERAL context is 18 and so covers correcting corruptions. The infliuence on the line is 15 and so a focus on issues of modesty, level things out, reduce the highs, fill in the lows. The EXAMPLE given covers repenting but the small, the unimportant, EXPLOITS that repenting and as such the link of the change of heart being too much where that can be a backlash to dealing with the father's corruption in that the family link 'paints' the child no matter what - so there is compensation that is extreme but also expected, it is understandable and so no real issue.

Due to the self-referencing, when we reflect on lines etc so elicit resonance with the generic categories hard coded in us due to brain structure. Thus the generic 'vibe' manifest in the details of 15 works on the unconscious that seeds the expression through consciousness.

Note in 18 the actualisation of yang is into collective, externally-derived, control (07), quality control (23) and issues of keeping words close to facts (15) - add all of that up in general and you can sense the 'correcting' vibe of 18 overall. Then ADD to that the entanglement influene reflected in the pairing of 18 and 46. Then add to THAT the XOR material.

Ok?

Chris.

 

[rosada]

I'm thinking "what has been spolied by the father" and "what has been spoiled by the mother" could be considered the sins of comission and the sins of omission.
--
"A little too energetically trying to right the mistakes of the past." Anybody noticed the squabble over past postings going on elsewhere on this thread? I knew 18 should be renamed, "Stirring Up Trouble". At least we are promised there will be a little remorse but no great blame.
--

Continuing with the tarot thoughts:

18.2
Hierophant (Taurus) Magician (Mercury) - Death (Scorpio) World (Saturn)
The Hierophant is a picture of a priest and represents (divine) law and order. The Magician is a picture of a man with one hand pointing upward and one down as if to say, "As above so below". So it's a feeling of something very solid, something that has been decreed by heaven and cannot be easily changed. The Death card is a picture of a skeleton and represents endings and decay, and the World card is a picture of a person dancing on top of the world and represents freedom as the result of concious understanding and alignment with The Flow. So if I were using these cards to trigger my memory of 18.2 I would conclude that this line refers to situations that must evolve slowly over time, or in a proper sequence, that one ought not just jump in and try to change the rules as with 18.1, that before making changes one ought to flow for awhile in the other man's shoes.

18.3
The Lovers (Gemini) The Magician (Mercury) Temperance (Sagittarius) The World (Saturn):
Interesting that this line makes a referance to the heart as that fits with the Lovers card. In tarot the Lovers card has to do with attractions and the need to make choices. Temperance is illustrated with an angel pouring water back and forth between two urns. It suggests tossing ideas back and forth, a small change here, a slight adjustment there. The business Martin noted and the search for levelling as Chris pointed out. Actually, as these two cards and signs will always be associated with line 3, this gives us a sence of what an unstable position line three is in any hexagram. But it is particularly so, I guess, in 18 if Mercury and Saturn are indeed connected here, as these planets together symbolize a verbalizing, strengthening of beliefs. So all kinds of dramatic, intense proclamations indicated here, which may trigger changes in understanding as people reassess the smallest statement, belief, to improve understanding.

 

[rosada]

18.4
Six in the fourth place means:
Tolerating what has been spoiled by the father.
In continuing one sees humiliation.

This shows a situation of someone too weak to take measures against decay that has its roots in the past and is just beginning to manifest itself. It is allowed to run its course. If this continues, humiliation will result.

This line is especially weak, and at the top of the nuclear trigram Tui, the Joyous. In the given situation nothing will be gained by letting things drift.
-Wilhelm

 

[martin]

18.4

Saturn in Capricorn, its own sign. Rock solid, edged in stone. Very hard to change.
Mercury in Cancer (rather introverted and oriented towards the past) may not be inclined to do much about it but it can try to understand the 'father', his history, his motives.
It is well suited for that and with more understanding it might find a way to correct things.
A psychological approach?

 

[dobro p]

18.4
Six in the fourth place means:
Tolerating what has been spoiled by the father.
In continuing one sees humiliation.

This shows a situation of someone too weak to take measures against decay that has its roots in the past and is just beginning to manifest itself. It is allowed to run its course. If this continues, humiliation will result.

Too weak, yeah, that's accurate. But some people will see it more as an error in judgement based on wrong values ('they *could* correct this, but they're indulging themselves for selfish reasons such as not wanting to look at unpleasant truths').

Also, you talk about the influence 'manifesting'. That's one way to look at it, but I'm thinking the issue is one which, because it has its roots in the past, has been obvious for anyone with eyes to see. The issue is one of having the courage and strength and honesty to look at a situation and admit the truth about its rottenness. That puts the focus on the person more than the situation, which is where it belongs, I think.

 

[dobro p]

Chris - yeah, thanks for your reply. I understand better what you're saying.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+

Line 4
"To be able to talk about the problems, to know what they are (map them out) and yet do nothing brings humiliation."

Line position 4 is 'ruled' by 16 and so a sense of planning, foreseeing, expectation etc is present overall (and so the reference to mapping things out).

The formation of fire in upper is a focus on ideology and so lots of words as guides but no action other than more words (fire moves outwards and so a boundary that converts the unknown to the known, difference to sameness, as in different material to the sameness of ash)

Hexagram 50 covers raw into refined, transformations etc (with/from correcting comes transforming - and the trigrams of 50 read "with/from cultivation (wind in bottom) comes ideology (fire in top)" - but here in 18.4 the focus is on talk and categorising and no more when there are deeds needed to be done to CORRECT corruptions, not just to talk about their forms or any ideology focused on correction. The talk can be exciting, heated, and overall enthused and 'fun' but that act alone does nothing.

In the categories of trigrams the bottom is more reactive, the top more proactive and so the first line of the top also contains the beginning of being proactive (as covered in 16 with ITS focus on beginning to plan, enthused with possibles etc etc)

Chris.

 

[frank_r]

Tolerating the father

Line 4

Trigram mountain is changing in fire and nucleur trigram thunder is changing in lake.
In 5 phase theory is earth changing in fire and the upper nucleur trigram; wood in metal.

Then we see a reversed sheng and a reversed ko cycle.
In the reversed sheng is the mother exhausting the son, and in the reversed ko cycle the grandmother injures the grandson.
But in both cases is the one who is distroying/injuring the biggest victum. So here the mother and the grandmother. The father who should be in charge isn't strong enough. And the dacay in the family goes further, with humiliation for everybody as result.

 

[mudpie]

18.4 was discussed and then played out on this forum as one of the biggest, ugliest battles in Clarity history ensued. I can never think of 18.4 again without remembering that . deep-seated angers exploding, particularly at the male species, and misdirected in the present. a disaster of 50.4 proportions.

 

[rosada]

Wow, you're right I think, listener. I hadn't paid too much attention to the 'fan yao' line before, but this one sure seems to fit. Hopefully this was all just a bit of performance art and now we've all learned and the positive potentials of 18.5 will kick in bright and early tomorrow!

 

[rosada]

Applying Tarot ..
The Chariot (Cancer) The Magician (Mercury) - The Devil (Capricorn) The World (Saturn).
The Chariot is a picture of a charioteer guiding his horses without reins. The horses represent the feelings. The charioteer must control his horses, his feelings, not with reins, outer restraints, but from an inner level, having developed an inner nature stronger than any outer world temptations. The Magician (mind) next to the Devil (reality) suggests the power of habitual thought patterns. If one has developed the ability to control and direct their impulses they can survive 18.4. If not, the danger of humiliation as how poorly we are able to control our feelings/impulses is revealed to The World.

In brief,
18.4 Danger of uncontroled habits over powering better judgement in public. Bummer.

 

[rosada]

18.5
* Six in the fifth place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
One meets with praise.

An individual is confornted with corruption originating from neglect in former times.
He lacks the power to ward it off alone, but with able helpers he can at least bring about a through reform, if he cannot create a new beginning, and this is praiseworthy.

This line is central, in the place of honor, and yielding, hence very well fitted for rectifying the mistakes of the past with forbearance, yet energetically.

 

[rosada]

What others have to say about 18.5

Do not replace one bad habit with an equally bad one. As you mend your lifestyle, be sure to heed the guidance of the Higher Self.
-Leichtman

Your mistaken attitude and the mistakes you have made that brought on your ruination are obvious to other people involved in them with you. They lay the blame for them on you, and they are correct. Since they are so sensitive to you and what you do, they will react favorably, with relief and warm praise, if you make any effort to change the mistakes you have made.
-Reifler

To remedy your father's misconduct, you must establish your reputation.
-Moran

Praised for helping your father
Someone needs your help, and you are praised for giving it. It is worth doing, even though there may be some regrets.
-Sorrell

Correcting deficiencies caused by the father: You are in a strong position and have the help of a strong subordinate who will make up for your inner weakness. Correcting the deficiency brings honor.
-wu wei

...they that seek the lord shall not want for any good thing (Psalms 34:10). State the truth that all good is yours and it will become manefest in your affairs. You will be guided in all ways. Infinite intelligence of your subconcious will attract to you all those who will aid you in the realization of your dreams and aspirations.
-Murphy

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 18.5

Line 5
"The errors of the past are repaired. Reputations enhanced. Responsibilities taken."

with/from correcting comes becoming cultivation and influencial (wind)

 

[rosada]

Some thoughts on the symbols of Air and Earth:

"Earth congeals, coagulates, and solidifies, seeking to form a firm foundation for the enterprised.
The Air is fancy free and blows everywhere; when the Earth is loosely packed, the wind ever blows, mixing reason and intuition, creativity and realistic attention to details, all driven in the sandstorm of life.
Earth and Air are neither friends nor enemies; they tend to exist in mutual exclusion; IT REQUIRES GREAT PATIENCE AND COAXING TO BRING EARTH AND AIR INTO A STATE OF COHABITATION AND COOPERATION.
Air is the deep wellspring of inspiration (filled with the spirit) and the driving force of aspiration. Beware turning the foundation, Earth, into cement, prematurely, by becoming obsessed with the material elements at the expense of creativity and idealism.
Earth/Air warns us we may be suffocating our creativity, or perhaps ignoring someone near us whose creativity and insight could be very helpful in fulfilling our ambitions."
-Joan Mumford, Magical Tattwas

 

[martin]

I8.5
Is this happening now?

Aquarius or the 11th house, teenagers group (or gang), in this way they find out or define who they are.
Our 'friends' are our mirrors, our 'enemies' too. They mirror who we are not or don't want to be, our shadows perhaps.

Saturn in Aquarius, the we/they has become rigid, needs restructuring. Or needs to melt.
Mercury in Leo offers a keen eye for what is essential (central).
And self-knowledge maybe.

 

[rosada]

Ding: What time is it?
Dong: You mean now?

18.5

Magican/Mercury/The Word..Strength/Leo/Cheerful..The World/Saturn/Changes..The Star/Aquarius/Hope for better times.

A cheerful word changes everything for the better.

 

[rosada]

Nine in the top means:
He does not serve kings and princes,
Sets himself higher goals.

 

[Sparhawk]

Nine in the top means:
He does not serve kings and princes,
Sets himself higher goals.

Reminds me of the metaphor of the "useless tree"; a tree so gnarled and ugly that nobody paid attention to it and thus was allowed to live and grow. The person described in this line, if he was of any apparent value to princes and kings, within the historical context of ancient China, he would serve them or else. By setting himself lofty goals, it shows that he's flying under the radar of the people of power that can use him. Definitely, a very Daoist (and perhaps latter used by the Buddhist ) view of the world: personal cultivation.

L

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 18.6

Line 6
"Beyond the material, there is reforming the spiritual."

46 trigrams give us "with/from cultivation comes devotion to, absolute trust in, another/others"

Here we shift to 18-46 hexagrams and read "with/from correcting comes entanglements (pushing upwards)" - getting more involved with the 'high". Since we are still in a correcting context so we focus on correcting the "high", the spiritual. etc.

if we map 46 with negative emotions we have for the trigrams of 46:

with/from anticipation of wrong doing comes darkness. Interpretable as
"with anticipation of wrong, we enter the darkness"

The positive side is "with anticipation of right, we enter devotion (to another/others)"

 

[dobro p]

Reminds me of the metaphor of the "useless tree"; a tree so gnarled and ugly that nobody paid attention to it and thus was allowed to live and grow. The person described in this line, if he was of any apparent value to princes and kings, within the historical context of ancient China, he would serve them or else. By setting himself lofty goals, it shows that he's flying under the radar of the people of power that can use him. Definitely, a very Daoist (and perhaps latter used by the Buddhist ) view of the world: personal cultivation.

I don't think so. You're saying that this person appears useless in the eyes of conventional authority, but I don't think 18.6 is talking about that, cuz the Yi always talks about the the knowing and doing of the person asking the question. I'd say 18.6 is more about somebody who simply walks away from conventional, conditioned, social activity, no matter how esteemed that activity is in the minds of most people. He/she walks away cuz he/she's got better fish to fry. And because this is Hex 18 with its focus on dealing with what's rotten, 18.6 implies something less than attractive about the business of 'kings and princes'. 18.6 is about taking the spiritual path.

 

[Sparhawk]

I don't think so. You're saying that this person appears useless in the eyes of conventional authority, but I don't think 18.6 is talking about that, cuz the Yi always talks about the the knowing and doing of the person asking the question. I'd say 18.6 is more about somebody who simply walks away from conventional, conditioned, social activity, no matter how esteemed that activity is in the minds of most people. He/she walks away cuz he/she's got better fish to fry. And because this is Hex 18 with its focus on dealing with what's rotten, 18.6 implies something less than attractive about the business of 'kings and princes'. 18.6 is about taking the spiritual path.

Hmmm, was that argument for argument's sake? I don't think what you are saying differs that much from what I said. The person in 18.6 can be interpreted, yes, as leaving behind the mundane to concentrate on his spiritual path. Actually, I believe it is exactly what it means. What I, as a corollary to the metaphor, tried to say is that, within the historical context of ancient China, if he was perceived of having any value to the Emperor (meaning the whole government apparatus), he would not have been able to wriggle him/herself from under the Princes and Kings. This person, either snuffed, from the start of his cultivated life, the whole Confucian tradition of "serving" and was not already a gear in the apparatus (i.e. "flying under the radar"), or if he was, two possibilities are open: a. he's of an age or position of retirement and thus able to make that decision; b. he would not be able to pursue his personal goals.

I rather interpret a line like this thinking about the obstacles the situation may bring for it to fulfill it than interpreting it literally. A person that has the attention of Princes and Kings may not be completely independent, regardless of his wishes.

L

 

[Trojina]

I think that is what Luis is saying Dobro, the same as you said just put another way.

 

[dobro p]

Hmmm, was that argument for argument's sake?

Nope. It was discrimination of an important difference of emphasis.

Here are two different people: one walks away from the dumb social game even though he could shine at it, cuz it's a dumb social game; the other guy doesn't so much walk away from it as he never gets noticed. The first guy's 'walking away' is more significant, and it's the one the Yi is talking about, I think. I don't think the Yi is talking about the second guy, although I understand what you were saying about the Confucian bureaucracy game. The Yi predates that though, right?

 

[Sparhawk]

Here are two different people: one walks away from the dumb social game even though he could shine at it, cuz it's a dumb social game; the other guy doesn't so much walk away from it as he never gets noticed. The first guy's 'walking away' is more significant, and it's the one the Yi is talking about, I think.

Yeah! But, can he walk away at will? That's the question.

I don't think the Yi is talking about the second guy, although I understand what you were saying about the Confucian bureaucracy game. The Yi predates that though, right?

Not really... The text may predate Confucian thought, but also the concept of service. Confucian thought, as much as it quoted and commented on the "original" text, it was using it as a prop for its doctrine. Thus, Confucian thought perhaps standardized the idea, but didn't originate it. It is exactly from that predating concept that I'm coming from. In a time where you could lose your head for staring at the eyes of the Emperor, a defiance to him of the caliber shown here would warrant a long way to a blessed death. If the subject of 18.6 has the blessing of the Emperor for doing so, this whole argument is moot, of course.

L

 

[dobro p]

Answer to your first question: yes.

Response to the second part of what you said: I'm trying to arrive at a meaning of 18.6. Despite the true things you say about the emperor, I don't see any of that as part of the meaning of 18.6. We're talking about working on what's spoiled here, not a lucky holiday from public service.