Pairs and followup questions

[heylise]

"A master ('mursjid' in Sufism) teaches by his presence, his atmosphere.
Being to being. All the rest (explanations, exercises) is secondary."

Love this thread, teaches a lot about just being...

Maybe 2 Sufi masters talking?

A lot of 4...

LiSe

 

[dharma]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

does it matter who the teacher is? I mean, once you find them in the outer world, do you know? does he know? and how do you know? And up until then, how do you know that you had already learned something???<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Everywhere we go we are surrounded by teachers, some better than others. But the day we no longer seek the teacher, is the day we've formally encountered our Self. And that is the biggest learning of all.

 

[dobro p]

Heylise -

"Maybe 2 Sufi masters talking?"

Nah. Just Martin and Lightangel acting out the title of the thread. lol

 

[luz]

Good morning!

How would I answer my questions??? Now that I read your other post, I guess maybe there's not just one teacher. Maybe I have already had a bunch of them. I'm alway concious, for instance, that the love I share with my dog is very special. Sure, he likes me because he knows I mean food and walks and everything that is great in life for him. But still, I know we love each other in a way that trascends 'human love'. It doesn't mean it's better than human love, or worse, it's just more universal. I feel like more in touch with 'nature' when I share these feelings with him. I like to think of the first man and the first dog, cuddling in their cave. A lot of quid pro quo, but you can say the same about any human relationship.
The funny thing is that I find it easier to find ways in which my dog has been a 'spiritual' teacher than to find ways in which actual people have. I know friends, lovers, children teach you a lot, but it seems to be more about the outer world. And I know, I know, that there is no real difference between spiritual and non-spiritual (I don't really know, I just believe you), but somehow the relationships with people don't seem to be so pure. And I don't mean that they are not better or anything. Of course there is no comparison in how I feel for my kids and how I feel for my dog! It's just that human relationships are so clingy, so needy... okay! they might teach you to be more selfless, but somehow you don't feel like they teach you about the 'big picture', they are so much of the here and now... so much about the human condition and not the universal condition, if that makes sense...

I guess there won't be any wise old

teacher knocking on my door and setting me straight and on the right path. No life-altering experience. It's just that I know I need to just be but that sounds easier than it is. In everyday life, there's not a lot of time for contemplation, you just move along back and forth, your mind running a thousand miles a second with all this clutter inside, and it feels like you're not 'going anywhere', not getting any 'better'... So I had this notion that there could be a teacher that would just point you in the right direction. And I hate to say it, because I know it's not right, but I thought the right direction would be about explanations, words, exercises, the very things you say it's not about.

I can see how you are teaching me right now because you're telling me all these things.I guess that, deep down inside, I have been taught by every other person I've been in contact with. But why does it feel like there's not a lot of progress. How would I measure progress??? By experiencing peace, maybe?. Is it possible to be peaceful all the time? By really, really feeling that every other person in the world is connected to you and there can be no ill will towards anyone anymore. Too much to ask?

I hope some of this makes sense...

It's a looooong answer but you asked for it!

. I'd love to hear about your student experience. I'm just not sure that one day the 'big teacher' will find me. A lot of people are never found, I'm sure. You probably have to be 'ready'...

 

[luz]

Dobro! did you finish washing the dishes???

 

[luz]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I guess a big part of my own search is for what has been and remained human since ancient times, for the kind of continuity that survives the collapse of cultures ad civilizations with all their fads and fashions and modernisms. That something has lasted for thousands of years gives me a promising sign that we're tracking a human Dao.
Still looking for evolutionary advances though. We need a whole bunch of those.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Bradford,
So, is mysticism the one thing you have found to have survived? Surely other more mundane traits have survived too, no?
You know, I think of myself as a little bit of a misanthrope sometimes (only sometimes!) but, surely, the human race must have evolved some!

. How would you measure this kind of evolution? By how the average man of now compares to the average man of long ago? I don't know how they compare, just wondering... Wouldn't it be scary if there was no evolution???

 

[luz]

Jeff,

Thanks for the link! It was really interesting, good to see the stories and approaches of people I respect.

I also picked up a couple of good pictures from it!

 

[martin]

Good morning!

A lot of reading to catch up with.
I first have to wash the dishes though.

 

[hester]

Hi L.A. You're welcome!

 

[martin]

"but somehow you don't feel like they teach you about the 'big picture', they are so much of the here and now..."

Yes, 'big picture', I guess that's where the 'masters' come in.
When I met my first 'mursjid' something odd happened. We were sitting close to each other, face to face, but I was rather shy and I hardly dared to look at him. After some time, however, I began to feel more at ease and I looked into his eyes.
The next thing that I was aware of was that I was standing, in a state of utter confusion. He was at the other end of the room and he walked towards me with open arms and embraced me.

Only years later I saw what had happened. Apparently something in me had registered it all, it was like watching a movie.
When I looked into his eyes I tried to make eye-contact. Usually there is somebody 'behind' the eyes. Click!
But in his case it was different, I couldn't find him. There was nobody. Instead there was endless open space, it was like I fell into it. And I went out, it was too big, too huge for me, my consciousness couldn't deal with it.

Big picture .. it's very real.

"I guess there won't be any wise old teacher knocking on my door and setting me straight and on the right path. No life-altering experience."

Why not? It can happen to us all.

 

[luz]

I'm speechless and emoticon-less for right now...

Why did you leave the sufis? If you did leave them. What do I know... maybe you are a Sufi Master. Why did you travel with them, why do they have to travel? (just pictured you, the Sufi Master, all camped out in the desert or something. too much imagination...

)

 

[martin]

Tent, desert, I think I see THAT big picture!

I never left them, but it became more and more 'inner world'.
And nowadays it doesn't matter anymore into which pair of eyes I look.

I have to be careful though. This morning I looked into the eyes of a mouse that I met in the kitchen and afterwards the mouse seemed to be utterly confused ...

 

[luz]

I've been staring at the eyes of your emu personna, but nothing!!! Lucky mouse!

I've no idea why it can't happen to me, but I guess that wishing it is rather childish. And so is envying a mouse... And so is feeling shortchanged just because it never happened to me... In the big picture, it will happen to
me one day, I guess... inevitably perhaps... Do you think I might be able to feel your presence, through the internet, Sufi Master?

Choose me, choose me!

What happens when you look at any pairs of eyes?

Do you 'meet' with other Sufis? (again, nothing I can do about this question... it's just there...)

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Lightangel-
Regarding this: So, is mysticism the one thing you have found to have survived? Surely other more mundane traits have survived too, no?

I wouldn't call the languages of divnation "mystiicism", or even the related system of Qabalah. Languages may even be a sort of opposite, since they cut the One into pieces.
Lots has survived. Some new disciplines are all about tracking this - darwinian medicine, evolutionary psychology, etc. Maybe the best for tracking the evolution of culture is "meme theory". But biological evolution works more slowly, at least until we get genetic engineering going. Our cultures contribute a litte to this, but mostly in a negative way by removing the forces of selection. IMO, we could do with some more big hungry cats right about now.

RE: By how the average man of now compares to the average man of long ago?
I think the differences are mainly cultural and educational, at least over the last 50,000 years.
They think the last big evolutionary jump was with the survivors of Toba, a supervolcano n Sumatra that wiped out 90% of humankind about 75,000 years ago. I think what we're up to now might have similar consequences.
Anyway, having hung out with primitive people in this life, particularly their shamans, I think we have more continuity than a lot of folks suspect.

 

[martin]

I'm sure I feel YOUR presence Sufi Light Angel.
You feel like a crystal, great clarity.

 

[luz]

Yeah, I've heard of "meme theory" a little bit. I guess that biologically we haven't really evolved much. Do you think we have evolved spiritually at all? Sounds like a joke of a question if you look at the news, but - again - by some measure it might be a yes?
I know what you mean about the but it doesn't seem possible to bring back the forces of selection... are there any theories on how that could be acomplished, without any ethical issues, I mean? You might be right, maybe the next big step is human made... maybe we won't get to take the step at all...

 

[martin]

Could use some of that clarity at the moment. I seem to have dropped my IQ when I met the mouse in the kitchen this morning. Met it again a few minutes ago and it said "And you think that _I_ am confused??"
Life is never what you think it is ...

 

[luz]

Sufi Martin, do you think we should pitch our tent here??? It's getting dark...

 

[luz]

What worries me is that the mouse talked at all... at your age one must be careful....

. Do you think he's trustworthy? Do you think he sucked up your brain??? Turn him upside down and shake him!! You need your brain!

 

[martin]

Hmm, that place in the desert looks really nice.
Is that you and your camels in the foreground?
If you don't mind I will take Martin with me. Okay?

Mouse

 

[luz]

Dear Sufi Mouse,

Please leave Martin alone. You can take my brain instead.... okay???

thanks

Come and get it!!!!

__________________________________________________

- alternatively - if that doesn't work...
__________________________________________________
Who needs Martin??? Leave him behind! Just hurry up, I need your big muscles for the tent pitching.

mousy kisses...
__________________________________________________

 

[martin]

Martin? Mouse? Where?

 

[luz]

!

I never liked cats! And now one of them ate my sufi master and my hero at the same time!

How can I ever be happy again???

SOB!

 

[martin]

You don't love me? Sob ..

 

[luz]

What if the cat really ate them????
I'll never forgive myself!

Who cares if my Sufi Master was a mouse living with a vegetative human, who cares? I could still look in his eyes! I blew it! I shouldn't have sent that cat!

 

[luz]

What did you do with them, you dirty cat!?...

Wait, let me see your eyes...

you are sooooo cute!!!

 

[martin]

 

[martin]

Kitty is curious: where is your moon?

 

[luz]

I saw you made a brief reference about the moon, what does it mean where your moon is? I mean, what does the moon do?
I don't have my chart here at work and I'm really sure that if I try to go to that website it will be blocked. I don't even want to try, I hate it when I get that black screen with red letters! I'll tell you when I get home, though.

Here I am, dancing with a cat!

Life is unpredictable!

I am curious:
How was it life-altering after you stared in his eyes?
How does the I Ching fit in all of this, in your life? How do you use it?

I can outdo Kitty as far as being curious...

 

[luz]

Wait... lunatic!!!

Are you trying to find out if I am... a little... you know... crazy!!!!???