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The Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, Why ?

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svenrus

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When first hearing about the fire that has damaged this most iconic place in France I asked myself: Such a place: cared fore for the last 700 years, how could this happen ? The news brought the explanation that the fire was accidental and that the reason for the fire isn't known…

Hex. 17 UC was the answer I got. At the moment writing this I simply can't see any explanation for the reason of the fire.

Yet, looking at the bottom line according to Kerson Huang (yes, hex. 17 UnChanging) I wondered a little.... Quote:

"A house damaged.
Good omen.
Get out and achieve.
"

(I Ching, the oracle, revised edition, World century publ. corp. USA 2014)

And yes, the answer to me wasn't this first line but: A house damaged ???
 
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F

Freedda

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I don't know the 'why' but in this hex. 17 uc you have the trigrams Lake above and Thunder below. So perhaps the shock and suddenness of the church burning will eventually give way to people's joy in its restoration and repair. As with many tragedies, perhaps it will bring people together in unexpected - and perhaps unconventional - ways.

Just speculation of course (maybe with a a large dose of hope?). Best, David
 

marybluesky

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The image of 17:
"Legge: Thunder in the marsh: the image of Following. The superior man, in accordance with this, at nightfall enters his house and rests."
Maybe a spark has flared inside the monument when the guardians were asleep? As in damaged electricity cables?
 
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Trojina

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"Thunder in the marsh: the image of Following. The superior man, in accordance with this, at nightfall enters his house and rests."

Who's translation is this ? The author should be stated, it's not enough just to say it's from de Korne's website. Who is it from his website ?
 

Liselle

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I was tempted to ask a question like this myself. :weep:

Sven, were you asking about the technical, literal cause? Or a more spiritual reason?

17 is: the Pair, the Opposite, and precedes in the Sequence - 18. 18 is about seeking causes. Since 17 is contrasted with 18 in several specific ways, maybe that sort of idea is part of the answer? Stay in the present, Follow along?

Am also not sure if the answer is directed at Svenrus himself (and us reading this) for some reason (such as Yi can't explain it to you/us in an understandable way, and we will find out in due course from news reports), or if it's an overall answer pertaining to the situation as a whole, including the people who are actually involved.

There surely will be an investigation, though, an attempt to explain and find the cause. It would be quite surprising if they decided not to; nowadays everything is investigated to the nth degree. (I sometimes wonder if the time and expense are always worth it, but...)
 
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Freedda

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As to the 'why' - so, considering this again, beyond a possible outcome that I shared above - with the trigrams Lake above and Thunder below, could someone have been doing a normal, joyous task related to worship or to a service, and something unexpected happened that quickly got out of control, such as a candle used in the church suddenly catching something on fire?

Or perhaps someone was trying to do something 'routine' but in an unexpected or unconventional way - and it went awry?

With all this speculation, it will be interesting to see what really happened.


D.
 
S

svenrus

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Liselle: I was asking for the cause, the reason. I've been thinking on sparks from a ritual thurible / censer: the trigram Tui being the vessel and the trigram Chén causing the spark /s. But it also could be from a tobacco pibe: the upper nuclear trigram Kén: Wood....

"Am also not sure if the answer is directed at Svenrus himself (and us reading this) for some reason (such as Yi can't explain it to you/us in an understandable way, and we will find out in due course from news reports), or if it's an overall answer pertaining to the situation as a whole, including the people who are actually involved." Well, could be so.... I was asking generally as I found it strange that such a Cathedral where large amounts of incense has been burnt for 700 years without any damage caused by it "suddenly" goes up in fire, I mean it's a bit strange, so dear I: "Why ?"​
 
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Freedda

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.... I was asking generally as I found it strange that such a Cathedral where large amounts of incense has been burnt for 700 years without any damage caused by it "suddenly" goes up in fire, I mean it's a bit strange, so dear I: "Why ?"
Perhaps odd, but bad things don't happen until they happen. Any one of us lives maybe many thousands of moments, and then suddenly ... heart attack ... or stroke, or we get run over by a bus! But why? It may be small comfort, but I do hope they find out it was an accident and not an intentional act.
 

Liselle

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Various unrelated things -


17, Following - a chain of events?

-----

Hilary's latest blog post (about hexagram 44), makes much of the "Commentary on the Judgement," the first Wing.

So maybe let's look at it for this one? Copied from Huang:

'Following.
The firm comes and places itself under the yielding.
Moving with delight,
It is Following.

Great prosperity and smoothness,
As well as steadfastness and uprightness.
There is no fault.

All under heaven follow the course of time.
Great indeed is the significance of timing!'


That seems to go along nicely with what David said:
Perhaps odd, but bad things don't happen until they happen. Any one of us lives maybe many thousands of moments, and then suddenly ... heart attack ... or stroke, or we get run over by a bus! But why?

And there's this, also from Huang, about the Image:

Image:
'Thunder in the midst of Lake.*
An Image of Following.
In correspondence with this,
The superior person withdraws for rest
When the sun goes down.'


*Huang's footnote:
According to King Wen's arrangement of the eight primary gua, Thunder symbolizes the sun rising in the east, and Lake the sun setting in the west. "Thunder in the midst of Lake" symbolizes that sunrise will surely follow sunset, that time continues in the proper order.

The problem is that there still has to be a reason. I mean, if it had collapsed (instead of burnt), and we got 17, we might think that maybe something had weakened undetected (pair 18?) gradually over time (nuclear hexagram 53, and also this timing information?) and then it appeared to "suddenly" collapse one day.

Any thoughts how that general notion might apply to a fire, though? :confused:

-----

There was construction being done on the spire (that's what the scaffolding was there for), and I think I read something which said the fire started in the spire? That seems to be the way it looked, anyway, as if the spire burnt, which set the roof on fire.

-----

Huang translates the Sequence text as:

'When one is humble and full of delight, surely people will come to follow. Thus, after Delight comes Following.'

(In his commentary on 16, he stresses the idea of humility, maybe because 15 precedes it? Excerpt:
The aim of this gua [16] is to expound the principle of harmony and delight. When one has accomplished great achievements and still remains humble, people will be delighted to gather around.
)

Since a building can't be "humble" in way Huang means it, might it refer to "a small thing" in this case? Something small started the fire?

-----

Also regarding the Sequence 15-16-17, "Integrity" is also a name for 15. I remember a long-ago thread about someone trying to grow plants, and getting 15 for one of the readings. I don't remember the details, but I don't think the plant did very well, and I remember wondering if the reading meant something like "structural integrity."

Again, though, what that could have to do with a fire, I have no idea.
 

rosada

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Could Thunder below Lake symbolize a live electrical cord in water?
 
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svenrus

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Liselle: Huang.... You quote Alfred, I quoted Kerson ��
 

Liselle

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Could Thunder below Lake symbolize a live electrical cord in water?

Marybluesky thought that, too.

There was construction being done on the spire, so I wonder if the workers were using anything electrical up there?

From this news report (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/16/europe/notre-dame-explainer-scli-intl/index.html):
At 6:20 p.m. local time (12 p.m. ET) on Monday, a fire alarm rang out, interrupting mass. Security guards started to evacuate the cathedral even though they did not see any sign of a fire
[...]
Twenty-three minutes later, at 6:43 p.m. (12:43 p.m. ET), a second alarm blared and the fire was visible at that point, the fire department said.

That sounds late enough in the day for work to have ended (plus, the article doesn't mention workers on the scaffolding, just worshippers inside).

Playing around with the sequence a little bit...

15 - "structural integrity," a need to make repairs
16 - something 16-ish (in a bad way) happening as a result (and 16 involves another thunder trigram)
17 - one thing following another; the fire took some time to get going enough to be noticed down below?

This article -
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/17/europe/notre-dame-fire-investigation-intl/index.html
- has more information about the construction. It says no workers were there when the blaze broke out. The spokesman for one of the companies said that everyone had left an hour before.

But could that be what 17 is telling us, as David said? That it took some time to get going and be noticed?
 
S

svenrus

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… and they are as different as night and day !

I normally don't ask the I Ching questions like I've asked here. But I got an honest feeling of needing to know what was going on.
My first reaction when receiving hex. 17 UC was that, sort of: "Are You in charge here ? Is this Your responsibility ? Why do You ask at all ?", the I poked fun at me and hasn't it been because I looked up in Kerson Huangs translation (without his commentaries as in the translation he did with Rosemary Huang) and my eyes spotted this First Nine with it's "The house is damaged......" I wouldn't have posted my reading here. I felt that my answer no matter of how little concern to me personally the subject in mind has been prober answered by I Ching.
 
S

svenrus

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Sorry,
A) Kerson Huang, I Ching The Oracle, revised edition ISBN 978-981-4522-60-1, Cop. USA 2014 (World Scientific)

B) I Ching, by Kerson and Rosemary Huang, ISBN 0-89480-319-0, Cop. USA 1987 (Workman publ.)

For your information
 

MeherBabaFan

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Thanks all. I was especially interested in the 'why' component of the question and was a bit disappointed some interpreted that as 'how' - 'why' seems more relevant to me, because at such times my first thought is what the spiritual benefit or context is - there is always a benefit to everything. Many acknowledge how destructive the institution of the Church is, to humanity - spiritually, physically etc. They aren't sorry for anything representing the Church to pass on. The Gilet Jaunes and their supporters have been outraged that billions of Euros were donated immediately to support reconstruction, while they continue to suffer. In a wider scheme this highlights the trajectory of both the Gilet Jaunes and Macron presidency. Both have been brought into stark relief by this disaster. To the I Ching:
I did a reading for my friends Birthday with her permission, using Li Se's yijing.nl Friend is a native Parisian. There was no time context for the reading, just an open request 'at this time of solar return' (astrological window)
Reading was 30.3 - 21. I take Trojinas advice to ignore the relating hexagram when one line changes. Only a few hours after the reading I read the news of the fire at Notre Dame. My friend was to learn of it soon also. We spoke the next day, her birthday, and while she had not read my email of the I Ching reading she mentioned the Notre Dame fire and said after her grief she had
gone to her innate pollyanna viewpoint, seeing the good in it. She said, well lots of slaves were used to build it, it represents too much suffering, perhaps we're in the Resurrection Phase now of Christ, we don't need the relics of the past.
This line 3 speaks of rejoicing instead of looking at the setting sun and old age. I had taken it to relate to my friends circumstances, somehow ( it was NOT a daily/weekly/yearly reading, just an open invitation for guidance at the special time of a new cycle)
I was amazed to see how the reading not only related to an appropriate way to respond to the disaster event, but my friend appeared to have naturally taken the positive edge to the reading as her response - as did I, incidentally, when I learnt of the event independently
Voila
 

rosada

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Sometimes an unchanging hexagram means something doesn’t have effect, nothing changes. So Following ic means something not followed? I wonder if 17un is saying something - the rules? - weren’t being followed. I read today that cigarette butts were found where the repair work was being done, even though there was a stern warning by the company doing the renovations that no smoking was allowed. Unfortunately those words - rules-weren’t followed. Could a spark from a discarded cigarette have started the blaze?

Somewhere here - can’t find it now-Brad has posted a picture of the tarot card The Lightening Struck Tower as an image of what happened to the cathedral. The tower depicted on the card is supposed to be the Tower of Babel which God destroyed when mankind had become too able to communicate and share information, and thus had formed into a master mind group challenging His rule. The destruction of the tower somehow disrupted man’s ability to communicate and language was turned into meaningless “babbel”. Anyway, I think it’s interesting this tragic event in France has manefested at the same time when world wide language has been so abused by politicians and the media that words are no longer the transmitters of truth but have indeed dissolved into powerless babbel
 
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MeherBabaFan

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I read today that cigarette butts were found where the repair work was being done, even though there was a stern warning by the company doing the renovations that no smoking was allowed. Unfortunately those words - rules-weren’t followed. Could a spark from a discarded cigarette have started the blaze?

Hi Rosada! Long time admirer of your I Ching wisdom & committment. I've been following your posts here for over 10 years-and just joined :)
I loved your insight about electrical cord based on the trigams, outstanding! That's indeed believed to be the cause now.
Based on a variety of reports, from numerous sources I've followed over the weeks (including France) : Renovation-restoration sites such as Notre Dame apparently regularly have fire incidents. The nature of such sites make it almost impossible to adhere to all fire regulations and precautions, and this was apparently definitely the case with Notre Dame. The linseed oil used at restoration sites is highly flammable, in the case of this event the wiring was apparently so very, very very old ,as the funds to make necessary to upgrade the infrastructure were not made available in Presidencys with other dubious committments. I am also led to understand the
exact evidence to ascertain the cause was destroyed by the fire. (that contradicts the wiring diagnosis- perhaps the latter news was released afterward) RE: cigarette butts, honestly this sounds extremely far fetched to me and typical news media scapegoating. The people hired to do such incredibly delicate, responsible work are very highly trained, carefully selected, working in confined environments - they know exactly what they are doing. Further, A cigarette butt tossed aside would have combusted almost immediately, taking the
smoker along with the rest of the buildling!

Anyone care to consult the Yi on this? I just did :)

'Whats the spiritual reason for the recent Notre Dame fire?'

41.4 -

trigrams : mountain turning into fire! Amazing!

LiSe says

If you receive Sun as primary or related hexagram, Yi tells you to respect others as equals and sources of values. They are not more or less than you, being different means that they have talents which can complement yours. No formalities are necessary. Explore what you can accomplish together. Enhance each other's talents, create a whole. Do not take advantage of anyone, reward every help you get.

to me, this points out exactly what I referred to earlier - what the Church represents, the Gilet Jaunes demands for equality, the myopia of the Macron presidency

Li Se line 4:
Make others want contact with you. Clean up yourself, be tolerant and clear – nobody wants an arrogant, rude or smelly friend, neither an insecure or grovelling one. Make yourself your own best version and it will shine on your surroundings as well.

The last sentence made refer to the renovations now being considered? Spiritually, perhaps
this rejuevantes the Church also, in that Notre Dame was such a pivotal building not only in France and not only for the religious. France is a secular society after all, yet it still valued this building. All measurements of distance in Paris actually start at Notre Dame
 

MeherBabaFan

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I checked Bradford (I salute you sir, if you're still around) for Decreasing 41 chaning line 4.
Seems to precisely match the conclusion my friend came to in the wake of the fire, about freeing the burden of suffering represented by the Church and the history of Notre Dame!!
 

moss elk

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svenrus,

1-What time of day did you cast this reading?
and
2-What time do you usually go to bed?

I ask because everyone is assuming you got a direct answer to the question.
(and I am not convinced you did)
 
S

svenrus

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Moss Elk,

1) Around 8:30 PM I asked the I: "Notre Dame, Paris ?" and got 5-6-4-1-5-6. 1 & 5

2) Around 9 to 10 PM

Your presumption that "everyone is assuming you got a direct answer to the question" I can't relate to.

I started this thread (#1), on the contrary, with the declaration that I was confused. Confused mainly because I got hex. 17.

 
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Trojina

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svenrus,

1-What time of day did you cast this reading?
and
2-What time do you usually go to bed?

I ask because everyone is assuming you got a direct answer to the question.
(and I am not convinced you did)

What difference does time of day make ? And what difference does what time he went to bed make ?
:confused:

This is a really odd thread.
 

Trojina

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Thanks all. I was especially interested in the 'why' component of the question and was a bit disappointed some interpreted that as 'how' - 'why' seems more relevant to me, because at such times my first thought is what the spiritual benefit or context is - there is always a benefit to everything.

From that I thought it was your thread, then realised it wasn't - it's Svrenus's so how can you be disappointed. :confused: That is how can you be disappointed it's about the 'how' when that is the question Svrenus posted. You'd need to start your own thread to be less disappointed in the direction of the thread I think.

There isn't always a benefit to everything. Child abuse ? Mass starvation. I could go on.

As to 'why' in the spiritual sense, you aren't going to know - you can make out it is something to do with how destructive the church is but then you could say similar things about any building that was destroyed...I mean things do get destroyed. If an insurance office burns down is that because it's a 'bad' place ? If a house burns down does it mean the people who lived there are wicked ?

I take Trojinas advice to ignore the relating hexagram when one line changes.

I wouldn't say absolutely ignore it, not any more. I mean it is there as part of the answer, but practically one line moving is very much the focus of the reading.


MeherBabaFan
Junior Member


I checked Bradford (I salute you sir, if you're still around) for Decreasing 41 chaning line 4.
Seems to precisely match the conclusion my friend came to in the wake of the fire, about freeing the burden of suffering represented by the Church and the history of Notre Dame!!

A place burned down - saying as if it were some kind of fact that it happened because of 'freeing the burden of suffering represented by the church' is just an idea your friend had nothing more.
 

moss elk

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What difference does time of day make ? And what difference does what time he went to bed make ?
:confused:

This is a really odd thread.

Because you know full well that we do not always get direct answers.

Here is what I see:
Svenrus was thinking /concerned/ worried about this matter (that he has no real vested interest in.) 30 minutes before his usual bed time. (This is a time that is best used to relax before sleeping.) He asked Yi a question about the matter and Yi told him to give it a rest. Looks pretty simple and obvious to me.
 
S

svenrus

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Actually my first thought, when reading Moss Elk's comment, was Moss Elk joking but as I'm not in friendly connection with M.E. and thereby not sure about that, I simply answered.
Another thing is the upper nuclear trigram in hex. 17, Wood (Wind etc..) and the mention here on #20 about Linseed Oil as a possible cause for the fire; Linseed Oil mainly used for protection of wood..... and the lower nuclear trigram Mountain: symbolising maintenance (Linseed Oil for maintenance of Wood)

 

Trojina

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Because you know full well that we do not always get direct answers.

Here is what I see:
Svenrus was thinking /concerned/ worried about this matter (that he has no real vested interest in.) 30 minutes before his usual bed time. (This is a time that is best used to relax before sleeping.) He asked Yi a question about the matter and Yi told him to give it a rest. Looks pretty simple and obvious to me.




Ah I see. For one moment I thought you had headed the way of weng wang gua or something.

It might be an answer just for Svrenus to rest I guess, then again it might not.
 

Liselle

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I can see the time of day and the time going to bed mattering if it places the reading at a particular moment in a breaking news event. The reading would have been cast at a moment when certain information was known, but not other information, and that could make a difference in how Yi answers it.

If that's what Moss Elk had in mind then I understand completely. If Moss meant something else, then I also would appreciate more explanation. @Moss Elk; - ? [Edited: ignore this, Moss, sorry]

And - I agree that if this thread is going to go down roads that say the cathedral burned to punish anyone, including the Church overall - then it's taking twists that are way too twisty for me.

Anyway that wasn't what Sven's reading was about. I asked him whether he was looking for a real-life reason, or a more spiritual one, and he said a real-life reason.
Liselle: I was asking for the cause, the reason. I've been thinking on sparks from a ritual thurible / censer: the trigram Tui being the vessel and the trigram Chén causing the spark /s. But it also could be from a tobacco pibe: the upper nuclear trigram Kén: Wood....
 
S

svenrus

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.... Posts here crossing.... Time is now for me to rest, bedtime, so I'll give it a rest.

Hex. 17 could be - as Moss Elk mention - a reaction to a whole other issue than Notre Dame but this is a discussion about my personal ability to consult I Ching... Good night for now.
 

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