The Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, Why ?

[svenrus]

In #85 I wrote: "....but in the translation of Kerson Huang ie he uses the older layers of the received text,..........." namely the Zhouyi. John Minford explains it in the introduction to the second part of his book. Kerson Huang, Richard Rutt and, here, John Minford uses this translation and why this translation should be damned ? I just can't see unless it, as J.M. also states in his introduction, it is reconstructed... (?)

Liselle, in #5, "There surely will be an investigation, though, an attempt to explain and find the cause. It would be quite surprising if they decided not to; nowadays everything is investigated to the n'th degree. (I sometimes wonder if the time and expense are always worth it, but...)"

I hope so, especially that they'll inform us about the cause, accidental or by will.

To go back to the beginning I think that I Ching told me two things: As Moss Elk pointed out the I Ching told me to calm down, lay it aside or take a rest (something like that) as I'm not in charge here (my add) but also that it actually heard my question. I don't think it was mere coincidence that those words from the Zhouyi caught my attention and I don't think either that it's a coincidence that certain answers can be read out of the attributes of the trigrams.

That the hexagram then, with a good will and imagination actually looks like the Notre Dame like I suggested here on #45, Hmmmm, my phantasy could have run away with me yes, but who knows in which way the I communicate with us ?

I personally find all the suggestions as to the attributes of the trigrams validable but only one suggestion, namely that on #20, includes the four trigrams involved thus:

Upper trigram: Lake - Liquid - Oil
Upper nuclear trigram: Wood
Lower nuclear trigram: Mountain - stabil - maintenance
Lower trigram: Shock - sudden lightning

In this way: Linseed oil (Tui) used on wood (Sun) for stabilizing (Ken) and at a certain temperature lid by itself suddenly (Chen). I know - I know, it's a bit far out but so am I in the end. This is as a matter of fact my take on it.

Or was it a cigarette ???
​

 

[charly]

... about 21. 55's Image says the same thing (zhen over li: "Thunder and lightning culminate as one: Abundance.")...

Hi, Liselle:

Zen over Li applies only to H.55. H.21 is Li over Zen.

Zen is the name of the trigram meaning thunder, but it doesn't mean thunder. Li is the name of the trigram meaning light or fire, but it doesn't mean neither light nor fire.

In fact the Great Image (Da Xiang) does not say the same thing for both hexagrams:

For H.21 ䷔ 噬 嗑:

雷 電 噬 嗑
léi diàn shì kè
THUNDER LIGHTNING TO_BITE TO_CRACK
Thunder and lightning: Biting and cracking.
​

For H.55 ䷶ 豐:

雷 電 皆至 豐
léi diàn jiē zhì fēng
THUNDER LIGHTNING ALL TO_ARRIVE ABUNDANCE
Thunder and lightning, all arrives: Abundance.
​

The character for lightning 電diàn can also mean elecricity, but in the times the Changes was written, electricity was unknown.

The common order 雷電 is maybe due to thunder was perceived as more important, powerful or scary than lightning. It evolved to a 2-syllabe word meaning «thunder and lightning».

... Just because zhen can mean "electrical spark" doesn't mean the reading says an electrical spark caused the fire.

The name for H.51 ䷲ is 震, zhèn: TO QUAKE, to shake, shocked, excited, maybe more accurately EARTHQUAKE.

If said shēn or written with the woman radical 娠 ,shēn, it means PREGNANT, not strange for pregnancy is like an earthquake for the female body.

You are right in pointing to the variability of the cosmic actors that in the Great Image represent some trigrams.

All the best,

Charly

 

[svenrus]

Notre Dame fire cause may have been electrical – official

So far, an update from The Guardian, 19' of april 2019 1)

"French investigators believe an electrical short circuit may have caused the fire at the Notre Dame Cathedral, as police attempt to piece together how the centuries-old world heritage site went up in flames."

(A hypothesis two month old.....)

:bows:
​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-fire-cause-may-have-been-electrical-official

 

[svenrus]

Latest, 26' of june 2019, from a danish newspaper (Ritzau): Either

an electrical short circuit or a cigaret ​

caused the fire, according to the french authorities.
(https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/samfund/brand-i-notre-dame-blev-maaske-udloest-af-cigaret/7689240)

 

[my_key]

Such a place: cared fore for the last 700 years, how could this happen ?

This is a well trodden enquiry which looks to meander between the how and the why and down a number of side paths too. What a joy it's been to read. Sevenrus heads the thread Why? Yet in the original question asks How could this happen? When I first read the original post I got a sense of incredulity in the enquiry from the 'how could this happen?' bit. Perhaps asking a why rather than a how.

'Why' - for what reason or purpose
'How' - in what way or manner, by what means.

This kind of shows how important it is to phrase the question, to ask the question that you are really looking for insights into. Only svenrus can say at the time of the query what was uppermost in his mind (and there has been clarity given in the thread) and the intention behind making the enquiry. In my experience the intention, voice or unvoiced, known or unknown, can be the thing that gets most focus from the Yi .

To my way of looking at things the 'reading' produces an insight, another viewpoint, an unseen meaning, hidden potential or a process to follow rather than an answer. The process here, which is svenrus's only, decided to follow 17.1 and then we had other's following their own process into a multitude of other hexagrams and other twists and turns as they resonate with the original enquiry, or the posts of others.

The first reference that came to hand (my own process at work here) when looking at Hex 17 was Karcher. His over view of the 17 / 18 pair is :

Follow the spirit and Renovate the Ancestral Images

and specifically for Hex 17 :

Following means leaving old grounds for dissension behind.

The etymology he offers talks of grave mounds and metal weapons, which he says, suggests sacrificial meat, willingly offered at a crossing or crossroads.

Svenrus was drawn forward inexplicably to follow his passionate enquiry and soon had followers to the thread who provided a rich delight of how's and why's for consideration.

I offer this as a Yi inspired perspective that adds to the rich delight of this thread.

 

[svenrus]

Hi my_key,

You wrote: "When I first read the original post I got a sense of incredulity in the enquiry from the 'how could this happen?' bit. Perhaps asking a why rather than a how.

'Why' - for what reason or purpose
'How' - in what way or manner, by what means.

​

"

In this thread, I realize my wrong way of asking and corrected it on #8 and #40

You wrote: ".....

The process here, which is​

svenrus's only, decided to follow 17.1 and then we had other's following their own process into a multitude of other hexagrams and other twists and turns as they resonate with the original enquiry,​

or the posts of others.​

"

Read #46 , #48 , #59

But beside that thank You for comment and critique

 

[svenrus]

Hi,

As I started this thread I've been more or less intensive following the investigations concerning the cause for the fire.....
The latest assembled is - as I've found - to be found on Wikipedia where it is to be read:

Quote :

" On 25 April, the structure was considered safe enough for entry of investigators, who unofficially stated that they were considering theories involving malfunction of electric bell-ringing apparatus, and cigarette butts discovered on the renovation scaffolding. Le Bras Frères (the roofing company) confirmed its workers had smoked cigarettes, contrary to regulations, but denied that a cigarette butt could have started the fire. The Paris prosecutor's office announced on 26 June that no evidence had been found to suggest a criminal motive.

The security employee monitoring the alarm system was new on the job, and was on a second eight-hour shift that day because his relief had not arrived. Additionally, the fire security system used confusing terminology in its referencing parts of the cathedral, which contributed to the initial confusion as to the location of the fire.

A short-circuit might have caused the fire. Some suggested causes of the fire include a short-circuit from the spire's electric bells, or an elevator, or cigarette butts left by workers. "

This Wikipedia isn't maybe updated with the latest, but as I see it the only thing for absolutely certainty are that the fire that damaged the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris were caused by ......
fire.

Any newer informations, anybody ???

 

[floatsmith]

Just going off of LiSe’s work on the trigrams — “Thunder starts or renews, but not from out a plan.” In the pop-up tab for Thunder, she writes, “Thunder refers most of all to an earthquake, but also to thunder or a lightning strike” (emphasis added). I’m not interpreting that literally, but I do think the image, when taken symbolically, shows us that the Yi is pointing to the fire at the tip of the building (where it’s most liable to be struck). And then, her description for Lake: “the given space in which things happen, the society or players, the terrain, the facts and relations all this brings in.”
So, the trigrams of 17 actually depict the event rather straightforwardly (in my impression of it)! Although perhaps without resolving the mystery of the exact origins of the fire. “Thunder in the middle of the Lake” — that’s Wilhelm’s phrasing — an unexpected ‘renewal’ in the middle of the gathering container (Lake) for a society.
The only slant away from a plainclothes depiction — although isn’t it miraculous in itself? — I have found here is in the “Miscellaneous Notes” for 17 (again in Wilhelm’s text):

FOLLOWING tolerates no old prejudices.

. . . which to me is a rather wry and irreverent way of alluding that Thunder, as a cosmic force, has the power to disrupt, dismantle, even the most historically sacrosanct Lakes of societies!
I do think, reflecting upon it now, that the issue is one of God’s free hand versus the human attempt to contain and formalize the Divine (almost to the point of fossilization — which would then need to be ‘shook’). Even though the Thunder/lightning trigram is in the inner position — although I suppose that may render culpability unto the human hand. . . .

 

[Liselle]

Your original reading was 17uc, and I recently read this that Bradford Hatcher says about 17:

Following should carry a broad set of connotations that include active, even aggressive, modes of following, such as tracking, hunting and pursuit.

and

You can follow your gut or follow a hunch.

So maybe Yi meant they'll eventually track down the cause (pair with 18), or maybe Yi meant there will never be anything but a best guess, or maybe the cause will be tracked down by someone following a hunch, or, that we should use our hunches to interpret the reading, or that one guess is as good as another... just to add to the pile o'interpretations...

And the unchanging-ness may or may not play a part. "Following hunches with no way to relate to them"?

 

[Olga Super Star]

The cathedral was being restored, so people were working on it, and when people are around it is easy that things happen, because electrical cables, as much as cigarettes, are around.

 

[svenrus]

- but the factual cause hasn't been found for good...... (yet ?)

The reason why I search for an update are to be able to understand readings better. To example with this airplane that disappeared I think in the spring of 2014, (Malaysian airplane) where we examined our understanding of the answer given by I Ching and when the airplane has been found and the cause to it too we compare this result with what I Ching told us - or rather what we thought were the answer I Ching gave. This airplane were never found and until now the factual cause for the fire in Paris neither. So: we are not able to compare our understanding of the answer given by I Ching with what really happened in these two cases (and thereby learn how to read I Ching better and better)

 

[Olga Super Star]

So it was possibly telling you to go to bed?

 

[svenrus]

Were it MossElk who earlier striked this possibility ? Doesn't matter, but yes, there are these two possibilities when asking I Ching about such things like the fire in Paris and Brexit, US presidentelection etc. etx., that the answer can be literary answering the subject but on the other hand it can also answer matters concerning oneself, the personal situation. Brexit to example, a thread here on this site some years ago: as a Dane I could mind my own business contrary to one being british and on the other hand this Brexit will have influence on danish export/import with Britain and in this way at last reach me personally.
I think your joke (..... ? ) resonates deeper levels here

 

[surnevs]

Now and then I google for the exact reason found to have caused the fire. This is the closest I came:
LINK
Has anyone possible french-speaking heard/seen if the exact reason has been found?

 

[surnevs]

Now and then I google for the exact reason found to have caused the fire. This is the closest I came:
LINK
Has anyone possible french-speaking heard/seen if the exact reason has been found?

PS: I know this is a repetition but if the exact reason for the fire is found we can learn a lot about the interpretations given here in the thread and about the hexagram received (#1)

 

[marybluesky]

Now and then I google for the exact reason found to have caused the fire. This is the closest I came:

So an electrical short circuit is believed to be the reason. If that's true, my interpretation was nearly right

 

[Olga Super Star]

Here’s a French speaker

 

[surnevs]

marybluesky, if it is the reason, proved by the investigation team...

Yes, but has it been solved with certainty?

For me, the reading back then showed up to give two possibilities (in itself) namely, as MossElk pointed out (#22) rightly that the I answered personally to some situation I were in, and secondly that it actually answered my question as I asked (wrongly formulated back then #1 as I used "Why" where I should have used "What caused... etc.") for the reason to this fire. There were more possibilities and I do think that an ability to learn a lot about the answer given is when a 100% with certainty cause are at hand (has such one been found, I mean).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found the possibility could be what (#64) MeherBabaFan points out, careless handling with linseed oil, logic out of my reason for that here (#91)

"Upper trigram: Lake - Liquid - Oil
"Upper nuclear trigram: Wood
"Lower nuclear trigram: Mountain - maintenance
"Lower trigram: Shock - sudden lightning

"In this way: Linseed oil (Tui) used on wood (Sun) for stabilizing (Ken) and at a certain temperature lid by "itself suddenly (Chen). I know - I know, it's a bit far out but so am I in the end. This is as a matter of fact "my take on it."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now and then I google for News concerning this, and maybe it has been solved but locally, I mean
in France - this being the case and if announced in french media's... I asked if any french speaking or French here would know.

Finally, I appreciate your kind reply.

 

[surnevs]

Olga Super Star, is this picture depicting... marybluesky, I mean: have I been asleep here?

 

[Olga Super Star]

I meant me voilà si tu cherches une francophone!

 

[surnevs]

Olga, thank You, for a moment I thought actually You were linking to that marybluesky actually were french... but when looking closer to the pictogram You gave me, no - it's not alike.

- and I wish as much marybluesky's interpretation were right as anyone else would be the right interpretation, just waiting for clarification. (Like also I sometimes google for the disappearance of this Malaysian Airlines flight 370 though concerning this more readings were involved here as I remember)

 

[marybluesky]

I am not French surnevs, but teach French

I just read the linked article & don't know if the exact reason has been discovered. I didn't find any particular news by searching Google in French.

 

[surnevs]

Thank You for your assistance. I do think it helpful now and then when things being asked for in Readings are solved, then to go back and learn what or where in the answer I Ching gave, understandings can be gained ie. like going backwards from a mathematical solution to see where in the mathematical problem it were to be solved.

 

[surnevs]

Newest (?) theory:
"Now, an inquiry into the blaze has found that six electronic bells - which were apparently intended to be temporary - had been installed in the spire, with cables running from them in the roof space.
These may have short-circuited and started the blaze, it has been suggested."
LINK, 15 April 2021
(It's close to what Olga Superstar supposed: #100)