ewald said:

I don't think ? in 29.0 and 29.1 is about repetition of danger or an abyss at all. Sure, danger can seem repeated, because of it's looming nature. But this is about entering into an abyss, and what one very much needs is getting accustomed to this dangerous new situation, familiarizing with it. That is what ? means. To deal with an unknown, and thereby dangerous, situation one needs to get to know it.

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Hi Ewald,

I think you are using the modern meaning of xi2 to conclude that. I'm sure you have Karlgren Grammata Serica Recensa, right? Take a look at the entry 690 where this character is discussed. Some of the ancient meanings are: "repeatedly" (by itself) and "double" as a compound.

L

sparhawk said:

Hi Ewald,
Some of the ancient meanings are: "repeatedly" (by itself) and "double" as a compound.
L

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"Some" of the meanings? So what are the others according to this must-have dictionary?

Geez, what difference does it make? How else do you become accustomed to something other than through repetition anyway?

Thanks getojack, bruce, et al. Back at a computer.

I was reviewing Wilhelm's introduction to The Abysmal and was reading the words, "A yang line has plunged in between two yin lines and is closed in by them like water in a ravine," when my son turned on the television and there before my eyes was something about sea turtles. It was a close up of a sea turtle climbing over the edge of a cliff and sliding into the waves and completely disappearing, the waters closing up over him - the yang turtle swallowed up by the yin water. Then the camera pulled back so you so the vast ocean and the announcer said something about how this turtle will swim across the ocean, beneath the surface on and on guided only by his instincts. The pure essence of, "If you are sincere, you have success in your heart, and whatever you do succeeds"!

Interesting there has been all this talk about the trigrams here at 29. I got to thinking about them too before I even read these posting so I see this as a hint it's time our study included them in our considerations. I was lead to think about them as I was first noting how hexagram 28 started with a six, a yin line at the beginning, but 28.1 is mildly favorable, whereas a six in the first place of 29 is negative. So I went back and wrote out all the first lines of the hexagrams we've studied so far that begin with a broken line, trying to see if there was some special feeling to hexagrams that start with a yin. From that I realized we've already studied four of the eight K'an trigrams. So I decided to just zero in on the K'an. If you do that it weaves together a sort of story that might be worth noting for help with memorization:

4.1 You have nothing in your past experience to inform you. You can only learn this new thing by trying it. ("the fetters should be removed")
6.1 So if you make a mistake, it's okay. Just don't dwell on it. ("there is a little gossip")
7.1 Just get your act together as best you can and give it your best shot. ("An army must set off in proper order")
29.1 And keep trying. Pay attention or you'll make the same mistake twice. ("Repetition of the abysmal - misfortune")
40.1 This time - or eventually - you'll master it. Doesn't matter how long it takes. ("Without blame")
47.1 The important thing is not to just sit on your butt and think there is something wrong with you. ("One sits oppressed under a bare tree")
59.1 No, it's just that there is some misunderstanding. Take action to dissolve the misunderstanding. ("He brings help with the strength of a horse.")
64.1 Don't force it. No rush. Go only as far as the way opens. ("He gets his tail in the water. Humiliating.")

Further thoughts... in my own life I'd been experiencing headaches and anxiety this last week as this trip I'm on now is not nearly as well defined as similar trips I've taken to visit my family in the past. Now that I'm actually in the middle of it, it is obvious there were many more details and people and considerations to deal with than I could have possibly known about before we hit the road. So 29. for me is saying that the proper attitude to have at this time for things to go well is one of "Follow your Instincts and Go with the Flow" . I'm thinking hex. 29 is a sort of "Information will be revealed on an As Need to Know Basis" hexagram. And so far, it's working. Rather than being The Pits, the trip and all the twists and turns are flowing just fine. The lesson seems to be not to press to know exactly when or what or how or why or where anything is going to happen, but just to stay actively involved, and have faith that it will.

Hi Ewald,

ewald said:

"Some" of the meanings? So what are the others according to this must-have dictionary?

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Oops, I presumed wrong, sorry... Here it is. What I read, you read. Click on the images for a bigger version of the scans.





Luis

Luis, how do you get images to link/enlarge? Cool feature.

That sounds like what Chris has for it.

hmm, "to fear"

Y'all need to check out Bradford's 29, if you haven't already. Very interesting.

Well Luis, I'm mystified as to what this "super-duper" dictionary is supposed to add. I thought you were trying to say that "be familiar with" wasn't in this "know-it-all" one, but that's not it. There's not much of a difference between these entries and those that I have.

So, help me out?

Thinking about the sequence and what is the meaning of 29 following
27. Nourishment and
28. Excess.
Causes me to consider that while in theory it would appear to be a great thing if we had all the food - Nourishment - we'd need in this lifetime tucked away in the backroom, such an Excess would eventually prove unsatisfactory. 29 says it's not the having that makes life interesting, it's the fun of the chase - the alertness that comes when one is a little bit hungry. or when the challange is a little bit more than the mind can explain but the instincts can handle just fine.

Today we were driving about 300 miles from a family gathering back to my daughter's home in Southern California. My son in law discovered he didn't have his wallet. Did he leave it at the hotel? Lose it on the dance floor? Or was it still on his desk at home? He had a feeling it was on the desk at home, but we wouldn't know till we got there and meanwhile it was five hours of balancing between cheerful conversation and holding back fear. He's a strong minded guy and we had a pleasant trip and, hurray! The wallet was safe and sound at home.

sparhawk said:

I'm sure you have Karlgren Grammata Serica Recensa, right?

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This is what Harmen wrote about Karlgren's, by the way:

[...] this also shows that Karlgren's Grammata Serica Recensa is not a good dictionary, because he only gives a few traditional or accepted translations of a character in the context of the book in which it occurs. These meanings are often far from the original meaning of the character [...]

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I see the hexagram meaning in the light of the proverb, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." If you don't take that leap of faith, then you won't gain anything in the long run. In romantic relationships, 29 could refer to the first stages of a new relationship where everything seems fraught with uncertainty... do you jump in with both feet? Well, it might be a difficult climb back out if things don't go as planned.

The image of the Water trigram doubled has a slightly different meaning to me... I see it more in the light of the proverb, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." So it seems to be saying that the querent has experienced this before and must experience it again, repeating the lesson over again. Over time, the student will learn the correct way to deal with the danger, which is to flow like water, filling up the empty spaces until he or she can get out of the pit... or not.

The important lesson in both the hexagram statement and the trigrams is that, when confronted by danger, you must continually move forward... if you are in that canyon then you have to keep moving. If you're in that situation where everything seems to be going pear-shaped, then you just keep going and learning about the situation until you can come out on top. If you don't learn from your mistakes, however, you could end up trapped for a long time (29.6 = )

ewald said:

This is what Harmen wrote about Karlgren's, by the way:

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I know exactly what Harmen wrote about it and that's Harmen's opinion, which I respect. Still, Karlgren is widely used and quoted. The offering of the Karlgren quotation is because the most modern meaning for the character, in most contemporary dictionaries, at least in the four big ones I have plus Wieger, don't offer the meaning for "repeatedly" or "double". When you posted that you didn't believe the character meant something akin to "repetition" I presumed your views were fed by the more modern meaning of the character.

So..., for me "repeated Kan", as widely translated, in somewhat different but similar ways, is a valid meaning for the combination.

Now, why do I get the feeling that you take a defensive posture every time somebody offers a different point of view from yours?

L

"Water reaches it's goal by flowing continually. It fills up every depression before it flows on."
My kids are moving so the car was filled to the rim. My husband made the comment there was so much stuff packed in the car there wasn't even room to pour in a cup of water.

Anyway, I do think this bit about filling up the empty spaces before moving on is significant. Although the picture we see at the beginning of the thread is of the fellow falling off a raft and being thrown by the rushing river, I think when I design my deck I'll illustrate 29 as a jogathon with the people all running at the pace that suits them. Perhaps I'll draw myself in it waving to a friend I spot in the crowd with the Idea being there is no need to rush to get to a finish line, that the whole point is to move at the tempo that is right for you, stop and smell the roses, fill up the empty spaces.

sparhawk said:

When you posted that you didn't believe the character meant something akin to "repetition" I presumed your views were fed by the more modern meaning of the character.

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If you would have read more carefully what I wrote, you would have noticed that this is not the case. I never said that "repetition" is invalid here because of dictionary issues.

sparhawk said:

Now, why do I get the feeling that you take a defensive posture every time somebody offers a different point of view from yours?

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Perhaps, when that someone is you, because I am actually attacked? Oh, I see, you never attacked me, it was a joke, I shouldn't take things so heavily, etc. etc., the usual enneatype 7's defenses.

Oh, and you just assume that I'm too stupid to know the difference between ancient and modern Chinese, and that I'm completely unable to pick a good enough dictionary, so you rub that in by saying that I sure have this super-duper dictionary. Yeah, kinda strange that I take a defensive posture, isn't it.

ewald said:

If you would have read more carefully what I wrote, you would have noticed that this is not the case. I never said that "repetition" is invalid here because of dictionary issues.

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We were talking about a Chinese character, didn't we? Are you a native Chinese and a Classical Chinese student on top of that? If, like me, you are not, then you must use dictionaries as a base to draw your conclusions. If you invalidated "repetition" for any other reason than one based on a dictionary when quoting a Chinese character then you are free interpreting it. For that, and even for valid scholarly opinion, once you publicly utter it, you are open to rebuttals and diverging opinions. Which is what I offered.

Perhaps, when that someone is you, because I am actually attacked? Oh, I see, you never attacked me, it was a joke, I shouldn't take things so heavily, etc. etc., the usual enneatype 7's defenses.

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Geeze, you are making me feel important... So..., every time I address something you say you take it as an attack? Man, you are in for a lot of disappointments...

L

You just mindlessly assumed a lot of things, and insulted me in the process, Luis.

I'll repeat the addition of my previous post:

Oh, and you just assume that I'm too stupid to know the difference between ancient and modern Chinese, and that I'm completely unable to pick a good enough dictionary, so you rub that in by saying that I sure have this super-duper dictionary. Yeah, kinda strange that I take a defensive posture, isn't it.

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ewald said:

I'll repeat the addition of my previous post:

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Sounds like repeated danger to me. Better watch your step on that slippery slope.

ewald said:

You just mindlessly assumed a lot of things, and insulted me in the process, Luis.

I'll repeat the addition of my previous post:

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No, Sir, you felt insulted all on your own. That's much more different from me actually insulting you. When I insult somebody, there are no ambiguities about it or false interpretations...

L

BTW, Karlgren's is not a super-duper dictionary. Difficult to find, about 300 pages of hand written Chinese characters and their glossing. Mine is almost falling apart from old age and a bad spine. Now, you go and ask Harmen or LiSe, since they are both in The Netherlands as yourself, to toss Karlgren to the dustbin. For all the personal opinions Harmen may have on it, I'm sure he wouldn't depart from his possession.

L

Erhm, well, I just had a 'Burn Karlgren to the DustBin' ritual. Which is also a 'bin' ritual, just like the Shang had. But seriously, of course I would never throw Karlgren's GSR away, but I hardly ever consult it. It is outdated, and when it comes to the original meanings of ancient characters it is not always reliable. I have far better sources which I consult every time. Kalgren made a mile stone with this book, just as Wilhelm did with his Yijing. But both books are a rooted in their time with all the consequences that come with that.

In the case of the meaning if xi Kargren gives meanings which are okay, as far as I'm concerned. But instead of just relying on the meanings that he gives it is better to check the character in the context that he gives. That gives you the opportunity to see if you agree with a specific meaning that he gives. Karlgren mentions the source for every meaning, and I think it is always a good thing to check that. It is very well possible that you don't agree with Karlgren's given meaning in the context or source that he gives.

The GSR is quite easy obtainable as a reprint from SMC Publishing, by the way: http://www.smcbook.com.tw/search.php?textfield=karlgren

Harmen.

Hi Harmen,

Gee, I have the 1957 reprint and went to the gates of hell to get it... Thanks for that link to the reprints!

Now, down to business, since we are here to actually learn something and debate it if we have to, how would you interpret "xi2" within the context of the hexagram statement?

L

PS: I'll PM on a completely unrelated matter...

Oops, I almost forgot to reply to Bruce about how to show those files. Here is the code. You must have two versions of the same picture file, one a big version and the other is a thumbnail of the first. You upload both to your server and note the addresses. You then use the thumbnail version within the [IMG --- /IMG] code and wrap this one with a [URL --- /URL] code with the address of the big version, as follows:

L

hmesker said:

I have far better sources which I consult every time. Kalgren made a mile stone with this book, just as Wilhelm did with his Yijing. But both books are a rooted in their time with all the consequences that come with that.
Harmen.

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What can you recommend as good references and better sources? BTW, I did buy the 楚竹書《周易》研究(上下) on your recommendation. They are great and beautiful books, indeed.

L

There is a particularity of water which people usually forget: it doesn't fill a space as a basin or a pit because it flows, it flows because it fills spaces...

Water is not in permanent flow looking for spaces to fill, water is pretty much quiet and settles immediately if no external factors set it in movement...

Water also doesn't flow with intention or knowing where it goes, it is carried to places by diverse factors, but itself, it always tries to settle down... if you give this a thought, you may find more than K'an in K'an :bows:

sparhawk said:

Now, down to business, since we are here to actually learn something and debate it if we have to, how would you interpret "xi2" within the context of the hexagram statement?

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The way I see this character - for now - is that it talks about something which is repeated over and over again. Not just once, but continuously. Many meanings of this character have to do with this repeatedness: studying, reviewing, teach/train, etc. As an adverb (副詞) it denotes frequency ('表示頻度,相當於'常常', '經常' '; 漢語大字典 p. 3345).

That is why I believe that 坎 means 'sound of drumming' instead of 'pit', because the repeating factor of 習 fits better the sound of drumming - is my opinion. This repeating is also found in the 3rd line, '來之坎坎', where 坎 is repeated. And we know from the Shijing that 坎坎 refers to the sound of drumming (I believe I also mentioned this somewhere else).

Best,

Harmen.

Thanks, Harmen,

hmesker said:

That is why I believe that 坎 means 'sound of drumming' instead of 'pit', because the repeating factor of 習 fits better the sound of drumming - is my opinion. This repeating is also found in the 3rd line, '來之坎坎', where 坎 is repeated. And we know from the Shijing that 坎坎 refers to the sound of drumming (I believe I also mentioned this somewhere else).

Best,

Harmen.

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Yes, and we ended up talking about French "Can-Can"...

L

hmesker said:

But instead of just relying on the meanings that he gives it is better to check the character in the context that he gives. That gives you the opportunity to see if you agree with a specific meaning that he gives. Karlgren mentions the source for every meaning, and I think it is always a good thing to check that. It is very well possible that you don't agree with Karlgren's given meaning in the context or source that he gives.

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I do that with some private webpages that I created. They have the Zhouyi and the Shijing in databases, and you can search on single characters or combinations of them (phrases). That gives you (well, me actually) a very handy overview of pieces of text with the phrases, and translations of them. It has helped me out enormously.

I use several digital dictionaries, that are easily accessible from the pages. You just hover your mouse over a character, and you get the meanings that I collected in my private dictionary. Clicking a character gives access to that private dictionary for editing, and several other dictionaries.

So, I use no paper books. I suppose my way of handling this is a lot faster than using them, and makes it easier to have all kinds of views on contexts.

sparhawk said:

What can you recommend as good references and better sources? BTW, I did buy the 楚竹書《周易》研究(上下) on your recommendation. They are great and beautiful books, indeed.

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They are, aren't they? I'm glad you like them. The following sources are mentioned in my weblog on several occasions, but I'll try to explain why I use them.

For characters in oracle bone inscriptions I use

• 新編甲骨文 by 精裝本
  Compared to similar dictionaries It contains substantial more characters. Explanations of their form and meaning, with samples of complete inscriptions, as well as a transcript of them.
• 甲骨文字典 by 徐中舒 (ed.)
  Still a good OBI dictionary, but surpassed by the aforementioned title.
• 甲骨文精粹釋 by 王宇信, 楊升南, 聶玉海 (eds.)
  Not much characters, but pictures of almost 700 plastrons and their inscriptions - a rubbing, a drawing, and a transcript in modern characters as well as a modern text version/explanation of the inscription. Helps you to see a character in its complete context.
• 甲骨文編
  Not very helpful as a dictionary, but it gives a lot of OBI forms of a character. No explanation is given though, just the OBI forms.
• 甲骨文簡明詞典 by 趙誠
  Interesting because - as the title says - this is a cidian 詞典, it not only deals with characters but also with phrases, arranged by subject.
• 甲骨文字釋林 by 於省吾
  Detailed explanations of a wide range of characters.

For bronze inscriptions:

• 金文大字典
  Three massive volumes with a lousy index, but if you find a character in it you can read all about its form and use. Lots of pictures of separate bronze inscription characters with the name of the vessel mentioned; not complete texts.
• 金文常用字典
  A dictionary with the most-used characters. Good explanations and samples of their use.
• 金文引得 - 殷商西周卷 and 春秋战国卷
  If you want to see the context of a bronze character then these are the books to have. Thousands of transcriptions - not rubbings - of bronze inscriptions, with indexes to find a character. Invaluable.
• 金文編 by 容庚
  What the 甲骨文編 is for OBI, is the 金文編 for bronze characters. Hardly any explanation, but very good to find variants of BI.

To see how bamboo and silk characters from the state of Chu etc. were written the

• 楚汉简帛书典 by 李正光
  is nice, but also a huge waste of paper because many characters are outrageously large written. Comparable to the 甲骨文編 and the 金文編.

For the usage of characters in pre-Han texts I highly recommend

• 王力古漢語字典 by 王力
  A standard. Not only meanings of a lot of characters, but also examples of their usage with references to the ancient books of China. A must have.

For general usage of characters throughout the history of China I recommend

• 漢語大字典
  If a character cannot be found in this dictionary then it does not exist. Period. That's a little exaggerated of course, but seriously, with 54.678 characters in it it will be hard not to find a character. For every character its old forms are given (when available), and all the possible meanings with samples from a wide range of (classical) books.
• 漢語大詞典
  Comparable to the aforementioned title, but with less characters (> 23.000) and focus on compounds.
• 古文字诂林
  A very complete source for the etymology of characters, summarizing the general findings from major names in the field. Hard to obtain, therefore I reluctantly give a link to a source where you can download the complete collection as Ssreader files.....

Hm, I believe I went a little off-topic here....

Harmen.