Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid

[laureet]

The big question always being: where do these things come from? Easy to say, from the Collective Unconscious or some such name for it, but it doesn't explain it, really.

It seems on topic.

Very much so...

Besides the explanation of the Collective Unconscious, The Akashi Register and the kind of "data banks" or "seas of access" explanations, there is also the Retro-creation explanation in which what you saw in the poster imposed itself in your previous unexplained and unresolved image and imprinted it making you believe that is what you saw... a bit as when a sound in your bedroom makes you create a dream which ends or seemingly ends in such sound...

My preferred explanation (my opinion only, not trying to recruit believers please) is "Sudden Connection" or the "Theory of the Spontaneous Web" by which you normally link and keep an invisible link to everything you see or touch or imagine in your life, but sometimes, because synchronicity, entrainment, entanglement or simply affinity at some moment at some point, you create a link to what you have never seen or touched or imagine before, that link will "carry" you early or later to it or if that is in another time, to a remain or a representation of it. That face and its owner could have been more close to you of what you dare to think...

This theory also could explain the Yijing accuracy if you think about...:bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Patent leather or rubber, and with 3 inch heels or 5?

Patent leather and 3 inch heels, of course. Who do you take me for?!?! Rubber and more than 3 inches of heels is not for real ladies...

L

 

[laureet]

Thanks anyway,

L

You are very welcome.:bows:

Can I ask something? You sign sometimes as Luis, are you from Spanish birth? If I find some of that literature you requested in Spanish, you want it also?:

Lauree

 

[Sparhawk]

BTW, Bruce, I liked that account a lot. Funny, I had a vision, sans drugs and in an experiment with "lucid dreaming", back in 1978, of a very destructing war in the Middle East. I say it was a "vision" because many of the warfare "Hardware", including APC's, tanks and fighter-planes I saw were not available back then and I recognize them now. I also saw, and this threw me off a bit, a very demonic face commanding troops over the dunes of a desert. I also tried to make a drawing of the face and could not catch the essence completely. Unfortunately, I lost the drawing many years and a few countries ago.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

You are very welcome.:bows:

Can I ask something? You sign sometimes as Luis, are you from Spanish birth? If I find some of that literature you requested in Spanish, you want it also?:

Lauree

Yes, I am. English is my second language.

L

 

[laureet]

Yes, I am. English is my second language.

L

Dime, tienes preferencia por español o castellano ? Algunas fuentes las tengo en versiones españolas (o catalanas) y otras en version argentina ( a veces mas precisas)

 

[Sparhawk]

Recomienda lo que tengas a mano. Puedo leerlo.

L

 

[laureet]

Recomienda lo que tengas a mano. Puedo leerlo.

L

No me referia a eso, me referia a que las diferencias idiomaticas a veces dan diferente sentido a las traducciones, como por ejemplo "rajarse" que dependiendo de que el lector sea sudamericano o español, tendra un sentido diferente. (Disculpa la falta de acentos, no tengo ni idea donde esta el teclado español en este computador )

Sorry to all, I have just realized that I am disrespectfully using another language , I was just discussing with Sparhawk the differences of understanding of the different translations of some sources from Spanish or South American Spanish. My apologies to you also Sparhawk for starting to use a language that is not the one of the forum and carry you to do so... Lets switch...

Any preferred source then ... ?

 

[Sparhawk]

I see that Spanish is a learned language for you or you wouldn't be concerned about those minor differences... Quite good actually, I must say. I've no problems reading anything that looks like Spanish, from any source, including Catalán...


L

 

[laureet]

I see that Spanish is a learned language for you or you wouldn't be concerned about those minor differences... Quite good actually, I must say. I've no problems reading anything that looks like Spanish, from any source, including Catalán...


L

OK,. Do you have or have access to "Comentarios y anotaciones del I Ching" authored by Navarro y Oviedo? Is from 1971, Argentina, a short run by editorial Kier I believe but I am not sure. I don't have it and never could find it, but I found some notes in my papers about a full chapter there on the subject of apocryphal I Ching versions which may interest you. I only saw the book once at the Instituto de Psicologia y Parapsicologia de Montevideo Uruguay in the end of the '70s, it was borrowed to me a couple of days and I took notes but never owned or found the book again, if you have it or find it I will be most interested in getting a copy also...

 

[dobro p]

I am afraid I must disagree. The way of less resistance is neither the easy lazy way nor the indulgence way, it is simply the way which allows you to make more way, travel longer distances and arrive more places without the loss of time, resources and effort of needing to fight with obstacles unnecessarily.
Character (in my opinion) is created by study, understanding and the challenge to discover how to improve your life or the life of others, which is what is behind 99% of your acts since birth. Confrontation, suffering and battle are not, in my opinion, a necessary ingredient for self definition, other situations as the need to help others, the need to discover yourself and the need to discover what life is about and how Universe works can also provide you self definition, thrust and a never resting- always flowing spirit. A life in full connection and in best of lucks is still unpredictable and needing own effort, what is best about it is that all the resources and effort and time you will save from dealing with confrontations, you will be able to use in helping others and yourself and in discovering more about all. Do you believe wise ancient master retired to become better because they needed confrontation? Have you seen or heard about many true masters born out from confrontation and challenge ?

However, this difference of opinion, doesn't make you and me different or in opposition just because we differ, all by the contrary, ultimately we are thinking the same, flow is necessary, change is necessary, influence of other's waves in ours is necessary, unpredictabilitty is necessary and to have intention self define us.:bows:.

Actually, I'm not sure we disagree. I'm just putting out ideas at this point, and when I read this last bit you wrote, I found myself liking it. I mean, why make life more difficult than it has to be, right? I think there's something in what you say about moving smoothly through life that counterbalances what I was saying about learning from life's challenges.

 

[Sparhawk]

OK,. Do you have or have access to "Comentarios y anotaciones del I Ching" authored by Navarro y Oviedo? Is from 1971, Argentina, a short run by editorial Kier I believe but I am not sure. I don't have it and never could find it, but I found some notes in my papers about a full chapter there on the subject of apocryphal I Ching versions which may interest you. I only saw the book once at the Instituto de Psicologia y Parapsicologia de Montevideo Uruguay in the end of the '70s, it was borrowed to me a couple of days and I took notes but never owned or found the book again, if you have it or find it I will be most interested in getting a copy also...

Thanks for the reference to Navarro Oviedo's work. Are you Uruguayan? I am...

L

 

[laureet]

I would like to know if anyone here uses young and old lines in the trigrams or only young lines and also if someone works with moving lines. Furthermore if someone uses the "flow of trigrams" technique or only the "fix" results.

 

[laureet]

Thanks for the reference to Navarro Oviedo's work. Are you Uruguayan? I am...

L

No I am not but have been very often there to have incorporated to my Spanish "che" and "a la pucha" You must have access to the catalog of the Libreria Teosofica ? If they still exist... They used to have looots of books from Kier, may be they have that one ...

 

[laureet]

Actually, I'm not sure we disagree. I'm just putting out ideas at this point, and when I read this last bit you wrote, I found myself liking it. I mean, why make life more difficult than it has to be, right? I think there's something in what you say about moving smoothly through life that counterbalances what I was saying about learning from life's challenges.

I found an interesting post from someone in a feng shui forum who with 17 years old has lots of essence... you will like it I think beacuse kind of have both our ideas on the table and interlink them...:bows:

http://www.mysticboard.com/feng_shui/8657-timing_good_feng_shui_luck.html

 

[Sparhawk]

I would like to know if anyone here uses young and old lines in the trigrams or only young lines and also if someone works with moving lines. Furthermore if someone uses the "flow of trigrams" technique or only the "fix" results.

Hi Laureet,

I thing this is a good opportunity to start a brand new thread with this discussion.

L

 

[bruce_g]

My preferred explanation (my opinion only, not trying to recruit believers please) is "Sudden Connection" or the "Theory of the Spontaneous Web" by which you normally link and keep an invisible link to everything you see or touch or imagine in your life, but sometimes, because synchronicity, entrainment, entanglement or simply affinity at some moment at some point, you create a link to what you have never seen or touched or imagine before, that link will "carry" you early or later to it or if that is in another time, to a remain or a representation of it. That face and its owner could have been more close to you of what you dare to think...

That makes sense, Laureet, thanks. Except that it was the face's closeness to me which made it so intense. I knew I was looking at myself.

 

[laureet]

That makes sense, Laureet, thanks. Except that it was the face's closeness to me which made it so intense. I knew I was looking at myself.

That is still more intense...

 

[laureet]

About your request for possible bibliography

Sparhawk: About you request for pointing some books which could give you some insight in ancient Ryukyuan religion and divinations as well as their use of PMs and Yijing or similar practices.

I tried to look through all and find what could have more essence. So... in English try to get Okinawan Religion by Lebra, is the best starting point. However, be aware that is mostly using the Northern Ryukyu dialects for giving names to all and not the Nanto dialects (South Ryukyu) so, look for SHIJIDAKA or SHIJIDAKASANG for PMs (sometimes who makes them also is called that way).

Be alert to the following term for finding about PMs: Shiji (not chiji), Karii, Karii Yanjung, sometimes PMs artifacts or stamps are called Karii Mutarriing also Bijuru if are in stone but Bijuru can simply be lucky stones with no PMs.

Ichiing is NOT related with I Ching, it is cursening. One Yijing version in Nanto Ryukyu is sometimes called ukudji and made with rice grains circles. (Some original chinese Yijing was made with circular lines as well)

The finding of PM sometimes is described as Smoke divination (wrongly)

Old books and manuscripts in Japanese or Chinese worth to look for clues are:


Omoro soshi
Konkokenshu
Ryukyu shinto ki
Ryukyu koku yiraiki
Kyuyo irosetsuden

or other books of Tei Junsoku

also the Ch'ung-k'o shih Liu-ch'iu lu hsu

but are quite dense.

Modern books with clues on PMs and/or Yijing in the Ryukyuan way are :

Hateruma: socio-religious aspects of a South-Ryukyuan island culture. by Ouwehand
Okinawa minzoku bunkaron: saishi, shinkō, utaki. by Wakugami, Motoo.

Beware of the following: sometimes Toki refers to those who made PMs (toki-moais) who also made other things. Many times shamans were the political officers and viceversa. Moai sometimes refers to lending money closed societies (as clubs or neighbourhood associations) in modern Okinawa, borrowing the term Moai which itself means Gather or Uniting (losely) :bows:

 

[laureet]

To Sparkhawk....still about bibliography

Have you got "Confucius Heidegger and the philosophy of the I Ching: Inquiry into the truth of human being" by Chung-ying Cheng ?

 

[laureet]

Hi Laureet,

I thing this is a good opportunity to start a brand new thread with this discussion.

L

Makes sense, I did as you suggested

 

[sophie]

I've been reading the development of this discussion with great interest. It's been my experience that symbols are powerful - in a way I can't quite understand. Like Topal, I was brought up to believe that one must work for one's benefits - it must be my Jewish and Calvinist legacy! - and that includes inner and outer transformation. But I can't deny that symbols have had a strong effect in my life (including runes, reiki symbols, tarot and of course, the Yi Jing - though that is more than symbolism, in my view), leading to some real breakthroughs without my being aware of having done any inner "work".

So, especially having read Laureet's exposés, and her account of how she came about her own toki-moai, and the fictitious one, I find myself even more intrigued. The way these symbols operate sounds a little like the experiments with entangled atoms they've been doing at CERN and other such places.

I am not a scholar, so I lack some of the basis for understanding the "how" of symbols (as opposed to the what and the why, which I have explored in private) - I am enjoying educating myself! - but I would be curious to know how the PM "works" (if that is the correct word), when compared to other, more general symbols. Is it auto-suggestion, or is there something inherently magical, for want of a better word, established between the PM and the person? I can see that having a form that corresponds to when we were born would be special, but I am not sure I understand why, or how. Do twins have the same PM? Are toki-moai related to our DNA?

Lots of questions! These are only a few.

I also want to reiterate my apology to Laureet. I took you for a spammer and a con-artist, then for an arrogant pedant. I can see I was wrong on both counts - though I can also see you have one *** of a Latin temperament (as I do too - that's the legacy of Southern France!). It's a pleasure reading you, and the questions and answers on this thread :bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Sparhawk: About you request for pointing some books which could give you some insight in ancient Ryukyuan religion and divinations as well as their use of PMs and Yijing or similar practices.

Thanks so much, Laureet!

L

 

[Tohpol]

Do you believe wise ancient master retired to become better because they needed confrontation? Have you seen or heard about many true masters born out from confrontation and challenge ?

Very Interesting, but you won't be surprised to discover I partially (though not completely) disagree with the above.

You say: "The way of less resistance is neither the easy lazy way nor the indulgence way, it is simply the way which allows you to make more way, travel longer distances and arrive more places without the loss of time, resources and effort of needing to fight with obstacles unnecessarily."

I think you can say yes and no to that. Yes, in the sense that more we understand ourselves and the world, the more we can avoid unnecessary suffering. But sometimes we must suffer in order to know. Our awareness doesn't just arrive pre-packed and fully formed. Applied Knowledge - in the deepest sense of the word - slowly gets us there. Collectively. It doesn't just happen because we are striving to avoid suffering. Rather we are striving to be embody the principles of love and compassion within our lives. to do that we need to be very aware of what is subtlely taking us away from that end and it that is where we need to learn the skills of discernment. Distortions in our religions and social constructs make that route very seductive.

It seems to me that this world - man's world - is built on the opposite thus by the very nature of life as it stands, we will be like fishes swimming up stream against the entropic flow. Yet the more that do so, the more such a creative flow can become if not dominant then more common. To avoid suffering as an end in itself (if that is what you are suggesting) means that the soul wouldn't learn very much about life.

I think If you look at nature and the world and the Universe they coming into being through struggle, even though one could also say that a line of least resistance is taken (As you say, why make it more difficult?) But Nature knows it's own plan. Humans have to understand it. We have largely become divorced from Nature and thus are in the dark - quite literally. to find the light needs "friction." This struggle creates the "fire" that can allow us to ascend to finer consciousness of more refined states of consciousness.

When we learn our lessons and truly understand ourselves then perhaps we are able to SEE clearly hour true nature and by extension, discern clearly the pitfalls in the outer world. This takes time and enormous amounts of courage to address the deformations within ourselves. We can certainly use aids and tools to help us, but not to the extent that we avoid certain lessons (karmic?) which are necessary for learning. Sure, perhaps in one life we can get to the point of using these tools to aid us in our quest to make a more purified vessel for more qualitative energies to be housed within us, but taking the path of least resistance as THE way is, in my mind, a way to fall asleep and a return to primal matter. But perhaps you're not saying that. Perhaps you are talking merely about a balance? No one has to suffer but we inevitably do, until we recognize that fact. Is that what you mean?

All the myths and archetypes about the spiritual warrior who succeeds against all odds, where the battle takes place through us at every moment. I'm afraid I think for most of us, suffering IS a necessary ingredient at this level of existence as most of Nature and life will attest. Until we learn the lesson, fully and completely we will most likely suffer. Once we've learned the lesson then we move on. Suffering comes when we choose to ignore patterns of conditioned behaviour and no amount of talismans or rituals will alter that ignorance unless we make the effort to SEE. It amounts to more ways to keep one asleep. Truly helping others is dependent on this. If there is an inability to see past our own choices how can we possibly help others?

Through shocks and suffering. Ever wondered why so much pain and suffering seems to happen to the most giving of people? Discovering what life is about means knowing the laws of the jungle, knowing when to be passive (taking the the path of least resistance) and knowing when to battle with the sword and to be ruthless - with ourselves (taking the path of active defence) "Dealing with confrontations" is an external consideration where I think the real confrontations are not about that, but take place within ourselves. Our big fat ego is always on hand to whisper things to us and send us into a subjective, desire-filled sleep all over again.

Defining suffering as "confrontation" with external forces is a simplification of the issue. Confrontation begets more of the same, but all true Masters I think, were precisely defined by that very confrontation from within. Their will, knowledge and love defined that battle and it is a battle that cannot be fought with eyes closed. Challenge is a prerequisite for growth and cannot be avoided. But it can be faced with dignity and a kind of akido of the soul. Jesus, Buddha, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, they took on suffering for the rest of us in very real ways.

Refining doesn't come easily. The nature of real creative change, or all births are not a warm, gentle affair - that comes later I think at higher states or densities. Here is where the opposites come to understand each other, imo...

Topal

 

[Sparhawk]

Have you got "Confucius Heidegger and the philosophy of the I Ching: Inquiry into the truth of human being" by Chung-ying Cheng ?

No, although that is a journal article and not a book. It can be found as a chapter in New Dimensions of Confucian and Neo-Confucian Philosophy,though.

I'll mark the book in my Amazon Wishlist. Thanks.

L

 

[laureet]

The way these symbols operate sounds a little like the experiments with entangled atoms they've been doing at CERN and other such places.

Oh entanglement...fascinating isn't it? Have you read Allan Combs, David Peat ? Entanglement could explain a good bunch...isn't it? I am very interested in those researches...

I am not a scholar, so I lack some of the basis for understanding the "how" of symbols (as opposed to the what and the why, which I have explored in private) - I am enjoying educating myself! - but I would be curious to know how the PM "works" (if that is the correct word), when compared to other, more general symbols. Is it auto-suggestion, or is there something inherently magical, for want of a better word, established between the PM and the person? I can see that having a form that corresponds to when we were born would be special, but I am not sure I understand why, or how. Do twins have the same PM? Are toki-moai related to our DNA?

Scholars are as much lost as everyone else on this one, you have (I believe) more chances to find answers through exploring yourself than through scholar publications on this subject. Obviously I cannot also have more than my own opinion and my preference for one theory or another. Here is what I think :

If the Universe is a sea in one way or other, when we born we disrupt in some way the form of that sea (through addition of a new element, us) and the Universe needs to necessarily accept us and adapt around us (the importance of the single drop which may be the one overflowing the border in the glass of water). So basically when we born we create a form or imprint around us which connects us with the Universe, our contact-shell if you want. We will, for all our lives touch the universe and the universe will touch us through that point of contact, that form. We are probably also recognized at any time and place (located) through the Universe's recognition of our "form". So, when we move in space or time, our form produces a pattern in the sea of the Universe, particular and specific to us. Now, what happen when in some way we manage to reproduce the same pattern or form-shape in a place of space or time where we are not (yet) ? That "imprint" will naturally have the tendency to be filled and what will be mostly attracted to fill the hole? Something with its very same shape and form...us! If you have circular holes in a surface, what will be attracted there and remains there will be circular or spherical bodies, right? and if you make three marks in the circle, only spheres with three indentations will be caught there right? So, in a crude way may be this could explain (in my opinion) how this could work.

If you go to a pond of water and near a floating leave or so you poke the water creating a disturbance of more or less the size of the floating object, the floating object will be attracted to it... that is a kind of event and how you fall in it, if instead you draw a line in the water in front of the floating object, with the same width and similar shape than the object, the object will follow the line... how much it follows will depend how much you imprint and imprint the line at front and how much the depression in the water is similar and can accomodate the floating object... If it works like that in Nature, probably works on us as well in all dimensions... "As it is above it is below..."

Now the other question is, how to identify and reproduce enough exact that imprint we make in the universe? The theory behind PMs says through observation of the simultaneously occuring (how some Nature forms look in circumstances identical to your birth or to your activities) or the similar (things or events which act as you act in life).

This theories, which are the ones I feel more attracted to believe as explanation, are maybe a starting point but certainly don't explain it all, when someone finds the complete answer, will probably find the connection between us and Life...I would really like to be there ....:bows:

a Latin temperament :

Yes...I know, sorry about that ... :bows:

 

[laureet]

Your post was very rich indeed and even if my basical believe in the unnecesary of suffering stands, I must recognize your depth of thought and richness of wisdom in your philosophy of life :bows:

But it can be faced with dignity and a kind of akido of the soul.

Be aware that Aiki no michi is the art of converting a movement which the attacker believes is harmful in a harmless circular movement where the balance and strength of the attacker are lost. Never the attack arrives to the need of suffering...if you know where to stand and how to move for having the flow in your side :bows:

 

[laureet]

No, although that is a journal article and not a book. It can be found as a chapter in New Dimensions of Confucian and Neo-Confucian Philosophy,though.

I'll mark the book in my Amazon Wishlist. Thanks.

L

Yes, I know it as an article, I didn't know it was in a book, thanks for the info...I will buy the book if available ...

 

[bruce_g]

If the Universe is a sea in one way or other, when we born we disrupt in some way the form of that sea (through addition of a new element, us) and the Universe needs to necessarily accept us and adapt around us (the importance of the single drop which may be the one overflowing the border in the glass of water). So basically when we born we create a form or imprint around us which connects us with the Universe, our contact-shell if you want. We will, for all our lives touch the universe and the universe will touch us through that point of contact, that form. We are probably also recognized at any time and place (located) through the Universe's recognition of our "form". So, when we move in space or time, our form produces a pattern in the sea of the Universe, particular and specific to us. Now, what happen when in some way we manage to reproduce the same pattern or form-shape in a place of space or time where we are not (yet) ? That "imprint" will naturally have the tendency to be filled and what will be mostly attracted to fill the hole? Something with its very same shape and form...us! If you have circular holes in a surface, what will be attracted there and remains there will be circular or spherical bodies, right? and if you make three marks in the circle, only spheres with three indentations will be caught there right? So, in a crude way may be this could explain (in my opinion) how this could work.

If you go to a pond of water and near a floating leave or so you poke the water creating a disturbance of more or less the size of the floating object, the floating object will be attracted to it... that is a kind of event and how you fall in it, if instead you draw a line in the water in front of the floating object, with the same width and similar shape than the object, the object will follow the line... how much it follows will depend how much you imprint and imprint the line at front and how much the depression in the water is similar and can accomodate the floating object... If it works like that in Nature, probably works on us as well in all dimensions... "As it is above it is below..."

I have to say, Laureet, you present some interesting ideas, which I had not considered, or not using the same kind of images, at any rate.

If you would elaborate on this a little more:

Now, what happen when in some way we manage to reproduce the same pattern or form-shape in a place of space or time where we are not (yet) ?

What some way might this be? Do you mean through something such as astral projection? And, does this always refer to future, or does it include such things as memories?

Thanks

 

[bruce_g]

Btw, Luis, the boots are in the mail. I've included some barbed wire and duct tape.