Line 6: high point or endgame?

[Sparhawk]

Which, if true, means 17.6 is endgame, cuz the time of following is past.

Mind you, this line is wicked to interpret in a good day but, that is exactly what I had in mind. :bows:

 

[dobro p]

Luis, at this point, I think we're primed for the next time we draw 17.6 - I think we'll be able to see which of the meanings we've speculated on it actually has, based on experience.

How much you wanna bet I draw it before you?

 

[Trojina]

Well if your're following something what is the highpoint of that ? if you are following a teacher say, whats the best endpoint of that ? Surely it would be to have internalised the teacher and the teachings to such an extent following them is no longer required. To that extent I'd go with Lises ideas on it. Could be the followers are turned away by the followed but I reckon this line could go either way - the following falls away because its no longer required, the following has acheived its aim.

Alot of commentaries seems to suggest the bonds between followed and followers are tightened, like Wilhelm "He meets with firm allegiance and is still further bound"

Noone answered my point that if it were the king turning away the blind followers but not the ones with true merit - then wouldn't it depend on your position in the situation - you may not be a blind follower, you may be the one with merit, if so maybe you are further bound to allegiance to the king.

 

[dobro p]

Well if your're following something what is the highpoint of that ?

When I noticed that some line 6's epitomize or express the essence of the whole hexagram (for instance 14.6 is 'big having' in spades, right?), I decided to name that 'high point'. That's what I meant by 'high point'.

So, all that binding and connecting that's going on in 17.6 seems to be like an epitome of following - what's being followed is being followed so closely and enthusiastically and maybe even obsessionally (is 'obsessionally' a word?) that there could be no greater or more spectacular example of following. High point, in other words.

But does the sacrifice sacrifice all that? I'm thinking maybe it does, cuz of the parallel with 17.3 (line 3 and line 6 sometimes echo each other, right?).

 

[Sparhawk]

even obsessionally (is 'obsessionally' a word?)

Nope, but "obsessively" is...

 

[dobro p]

Thank you. My brain wandered into a linguistic dark hole. I hate that.

 

[Trojina]

But does the sacrifice sacrifice all that? I'm thinking maybe it does, cuz of the parallel with 17.3 (line 3 and line 6 sometimes echo each other, right?).

I don't know. The way i see it the following must end because its served its purpose - that could be a negative or a positive. Negative if the following was false and pointless, positive if the following went somewhere, served a larger purpose. In that case one could say the following is consumated. If part of 17s meaning is being faithful to an ideal and line2 shows following a lesser and line 3 a greater and line 5 truly following ones highest aspiration then line 6 could be the fulfillment of that, to my mind at least. I don't know about the sacrifice - hmm the following is sacrificed when the followers aren't needed, though generally followers aren't needed they want to do the following I give up - seems alot depends on if you see following as serving or not -

As for obsession I do think this line has something to do with that yes

 

[my_key]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice, i.e give one thing up, to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifest itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

 

[Tohpol]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice i.e give one thing up to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifext itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

You took the words out of my mouth Mike. That seems to be, for me, the most accurate way to describe this line - at least in my own experience. Yes, Interesting thread - lots to think on.

Topal

 

[Trojina]

Yeah Mykey/Topal I was leaning to your view but it doesn't fit with the more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis and Brad who actually translate from Chinese - so I'm not that sure if we bark up the right tree, but still I think it is one of the most nebulous lines in the Yi. I guess we have to look to experience too.

 

[Sparhawk]

more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis

:bag:

 

[Trojina]

Perhaps i should refer to you as 'My Learned Friend' from now on, or 'Luis the Learned' - well c'mon Luis you know you have to distinguish yourself from us peasants

 

[Sparhawk]

Perhaps i should refer to you as 'My Learned Friend' from now on, or 'Luis the Learned' - well c'mon Luis you know you have to distinguish yourself from us peasants

"Luis, the flirting clown" is OK. OTOH, you just wait 'till I master them haikus...

 

[my_key]

Yeah Mykey/Topal I was leaning to your view but it doesn't fit with the more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis and Brad who actually translate from Chinese - so I'm not that sure if we bark up the right tree, but still I think it is one of the most nebulous lines in the Yi. I guess we have to look to experience too.

Hi Trojan
Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese. Sombre was never a strong suit for me, it all seems much too dark and serious. We should always try to allow the light to shine in and bring the clowns with it. I don't want to be too dogmatic here, but I think the tree we are barking up has as much right to be spreading it's branches as any other.

To my mind there is a really nice flow about the "Mykey/Topal view" and with the related hexagram 25 - Stagnation indicating what is behind this line my money is still resting on the making room for opportunities for growth - personal or spirtual or maybe even both.

Really though it's about what you feel is right for you when you connect with it. For me though, I can't wait for the next time I bump into it on a dark night down some alley on the rough side of town.

Mike

 

[Sparhawk]

Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese.

No respect for erudition, I tell you... Geeze... Thanks for deflating my head; that Trojan lady knows how to flatter men...

Regarding 17.6, let's remember that the context of my opinion is based on the subject of the thread (Highpoint vs Endgame) and thus is very narrow. Actual interpretations in a reading are contextual with the subject brought up by the querent and can very well differ. I do think this line is one of the most ambiguous one in the Yi.

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojan
Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese. Sombre was never a strong suit for me, it all seems much too dark and serious. We should always try to allow the light to shine in and bring the clowns with it. I don't want to be too dogmatic here, but I think the tree we are barking up has as much right to be spreading it's branches as any other.

Mike

Absolutely I agree our tree has a right to branch and it does seem this is a very ambiguous line whether one can translate Chinese or not.

 

[dobro p]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice, i.e give one thing up, to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifest itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

Yup, you understand sacrifice. Okay, so imagine you're the king on the Western Mountain, sacrificing in the time of Following. Of *course* you're sacrificing to allow room for something greater or better to occur - that's what sacrifice is all about: you give up something you're attached to for the sake of something better - the thing about a sacrifice is that it COSTS you something in terms of giving up something that's valuable to you in some way. That something might be a physical object, a physical pleasure, a relationship (these are relatively external things, I think) or it might be an attitude or a belief (these are more internal).

Scenario 1: As king, you have loyal, over-attached followers; you'd rather the connection weren't so strong. You accept the following, but sacrifice to the ancestors on the Western Mountain to counterbalance the earthly burden with a spiritual connection.

Scenario 2: As king, you decide to sacrifice the over-tight connection with your followers as a way for everyone to gain some spiritual space and altitude.

Scenario 3: As king, this has nothing to do with your followers, and everything to do with what YOU are following. It's time to attach yourself so firmly to the spiritual that the bond will never be broken. You sacrifice on the Western Mountain.

Scenario 4: Followers detain the king with serious obligations, hence they find themselves bound to him as well. The king's response is to sacrifice on the Western Mountain, and all share in the benefit.

So, which one appeals to you more?

ps Luis: I think in answer to your previous question, I think of that word as 'him', referring to the king.

 

[my_key]

Hi Dobro
Wow !! - Tough question. This reminds me of the type of question you get in personality profile tests - I think there is a career opportunity here for you .
You have put a lot of thought into the scenarios here. It certainly got the mental juices flowing at this end of the internet. I can think of situations where I would /could and have done all of them at different times depending on the context. Each is about perceived costs v benefits. If you can overcome your attachment to any particular object, relationship, belief etc then the cost of any sacrifice is low and the benefits are enormous. Maybe it's the giving up of the attachment that is the sacrifice?

Luis

Regarding 17.6, let's remember that the context of my opinion is based on the subject of the thread (Highpoint vs Endgame) and thus is very narrow. Actual interpretations in a reading are contextual with the subject brought up by the querent and can very well differ. I do think this line is one of the most ambiguous one in the Yi.

I agree, the scope of the thread is perhaps too narrow for the amiguity of the line and without any context it is darn near impossible to hit the nail on the head. I'm in 3 minds as to what to think next about this.

Trying to be simplistic and taking a lead from Heisenberg - I'm certain that I'm uncertain - so let's try looking at it from 2 different perspectives.
If it's viewed from the point of the sacrifice then yep it's an end game, but if viewed from the "nobility" of making the sacrifice then it's a high point.

Is this another case of whether you see the glass as half full or half empty?

Mike

 

[Trojina]

Dobros four scenarios seem strange to me because on receiving this hexagram and line I always assume i am in the role of follower, not the king. It must be so mustn't it ? If you draw this hexgram you are following or the time requires following, I never think of it as a hexagram where one is taking the lead, taking the initiative, although its true in line 4 one seems to be the followed. So I'd have to discount Dobros first three scenarios here because one is subject to the actions of the king not the king himself. So I never saw it as one needs to make a sacrifice but rather the King makes a sacrifice but whether this is for the subjects good or not I guess varies according to ones interpretation in relation to a specific question.

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

 

[Trojina]

ps Luis: I think in answer to your previous question, I think of that word as 'him', referring to the king.

I can't see that King and 'him' can be the same person ? Wilhelm says "The king introduces him" That doesn't make sense if you say the 'him' = the king

 

[Sparhawk]

I can't see that King and 'him' can be the same person ? Wilhelm says "The king introduces him" That doesn't make sense if you say the 'him' = the king

I think Dobro is talking about the character zhi1 (之), which is a valid translation...

 

[my_key]

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

I think you are definitely doing the following but there is a development, a maturity of what you need to follow as there is progression up the hexagram. Is it not something like following your base instincts at the lower lines with following of a higher spiritual ideal at the higher lines.?

By the time you have matured to line 6 maybe you are a king and the sacrifice that you have to make is taking you to higher places.

Mike

 

[Trojina]

I think Dobro is talking about the character zhi1 (之), which is a valid translation...

Ah yes I forgot Dobro was on the path to the learned

 

[Trojina]

I think you are definitely doing the following but there is a development, a maturity of what you need to follow as there is progression up the hexagram. Is it not something like following your base instincts at the lower lines with following of a higher spiritual ideal at the higher lines.?

By the time you have matured to line 6 maybe you are a king and the sacrifice that you have to make is taking you to higher places.

Mike

Yes I see thanks. FWIW in practise I associate the line with some sadness, leaving what one followed. Maybe thats the sacrifice, like losing a teacher you were attached to. Even though its time to move on for higher things you don't want to.

Actually when i was a little kid I recall being very upset each time i had to move up a class - I clung to the teacher who seemed quite happy to sacrifice my devotion, lol

 

[Sparhawk]

Ah yes I forgot Dobro was on the path to the learned

Hey! Where's the bowing head next to that??

 

[dobro p]

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

I don't think you're supposed to identify with the king any more than you're supposed to identify with the followers. But you're supposed to *include* the roles of both in your view of yourself and the situation. As monarch, you ARE the order-maker and decision-maker in your life. As follower, you ARE the force that follows and carries out orders. You are both. You have a lower and a higher self. When you are living correctly, the lower self follows the higher self. When you living the rather automatic life of the average self-centered person, the ego usurps the role of leader. It's my understanding that training and discipline are required to raise one's center of gravity from the lower to the higher. But both are parts of what you are, monarch and follower.

 

[Trojina]

Hey! Where's the bowing head next to that??

No I can't go that far in light of the fact Dobro nearly had a fan club a little while ago. Several females said they loved him in one thread, he promised printed t-shirts and everything and i wouldn't like the fame to go to his head.

 

[Trojina]

Dobro yeah I guess theres no reason to think we need identify with the king or the followers - I just always identified with the followers in my own readings - dunno why, innate lack of initiative perhaps, lol

 

[dobro p]

No I can't go that far in light of the fact Dobro nearly had a fan club a little while ago. Several females said they loved him in one thread, he promised printed t-shirts and everything and i wouldn't like the fame to go to his head.

Note to self: no teeshirt for Trojan this Christmas.

 

[my_key]

Looking for some inspiration I thought I'd go to a translation that I don't use very often - Richard Lynn/Wang Bi.

On 17 in general - "To deal with a time of Following in such a way that makes things go smoothly on a grand scale and allows for the fitting practice of constancy means that one is succesful at seizing the moment, and if one is successful at seizing the moment, the whole world will follow him"

Shades of living in the Now!!

Also with reference to Line 1 - Following should not be done to suit one's personal wishes, but it is one's personal wishes that should follow what is right and proper. Thus one's self control should have the capacity to change direction (i.e be able to handle different circumstances), but the course it follows must never violate what is right.

As such he sees Line 1 as equating to a little child and line 5 as a mature man in this journey of self ( no worry about being politically correct in his time then ).
Line 5 is the end game. You have learnt how to sieze the moment and adapt your behaviour in all circumstances to what is right. So you have reached some sort of Sage status. People respect and follow the example you set and advice given.
( Obviously parallels to Dobro and his fan club )

WIth referrence to Top Yin. He translates as " Seize him and bind him, then so tied up make him follow. Thus the king should use this opportunity to extend his prevalence to the western mountains".

17.6 -Top Yin (the dark interior of the self, the ego - my words) "occupying the position at the very top will not be a follower. It is because the Dao of Sui ( Following) at this point has already run it's complete course that Top Yin does not follow. This is why it has to be siezed and bound before it will follow" and " It is because Top Yin located in the western mountain, will not follow that "the king should use this opportunity to extend his prevalence to the western mountains".

So for the final step of the journey Mohammed really has to go to the mountain !!

In a round about way I think this says the same sort of thing as Dobro

You have a lower and a higher self. When you are living correctly, the lower self follows the higher self. When you living the rather automatic life of the average self-centered person, the ego usurps the role of leader.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to gain control of your ego and then to battle to worlds beyond. This posting will self destruct in 10 seconds.

Love and hugs

Mike


ps - Am I on the Christmas Tee-shirt List?