Sequence of the Hexagrams

[lienshan]

Thank you, lienshan.
-

I've now turned the scheme upside down to show you another sequence. These lines are counted this way:

6th: broken : = 2 and whole ! = 3 / 5th = 0 or 32 / 4th = 0 or 16 / 3th = 0 or 8 / 2th = 0 or 4 / 1th = 0 or 2
The five lines below have value 0 if equal (even or odd) to the line above (6th).

2-17 18-33 34-49 50-65

::! :!: :!!
!!!!!! !!:!!! !:!!!! !::!!!
::! ::!::! :!! :!!::!
!!!!!: !!:!!: !:!!!: !::!!:
:!: ::!:!: :!::!: :!!:!:
!!!!:! !!:!:! !:!!:! !::!:!
:!! ::!:!! :!::!! :!!:!!
!!!!:: !!:!:: !:!!:: !::!::
:!! ::!:!! :!::!! :!!:!!
!:: ::!!:: :!:!:: :!!!::
!!!:!! !!::!! !:!:!! !!!
!:! ::!!:! :!:!:! :!!!:! etc.
!!!:!: !!::!: !:!:!: !!: (61)
!!: ::!!!: :!:!!: :!!!!: (62)
!!!::! !!! !:!::! !:! (63)
!!! ::!!!! :!:!!! :!!!!! (64)
!!! !!: !:! !:: (65)

The trigrams above (to the left) show horisontal from left to right the Fu Shi trigram order:
Earth ::! Thunder :!: Water :!! Lake !!! Heaven !!: Wind !:! Fire !:: Mountain
but now with the change, that the trigrams Water and Fire shift places in the trigram order!

That's why I think, that a hexagram sequence is a question of the trigram order ...

It's no problem to construct more mathematically logic hexagram sequences and to read all kind
of theories into the 64 hexagrams, while it's hard to construct a meaningfull order of trigrams
at the same time. That's how I read the King Wen sequence at the moment. It's obviously not a
perfect mathematic hexagram sequence, so the most important thing may have been to show how
the eight trigrams alternate with each other? Especially this part of the second chapter seems to
support this point of view:

43 :!! !!! Lake/HEAVEN .......... 44 !!! !!: HEAVEN/Wind
45 :!! Lake/EARTH ............ 46 !!: EARTH/Wind
47 :!! :!: Lake/WATER ........... 48 :!: !!: WATER/Wind
49 :!! !:! Lake/FIRE ............... 50 !:! !!: FIRE/Wind

lienshan

 

[hilary]

I just go out for a day or two, and look what I've missed. *sigh* But I can maybe help with this:

These new, opposite pairs often have 'opposite' meanings, but the system doesn't always work so neatly. For example, 25 and 46. Do you see a connection there? 25 and 46 don't seem opposite to me, they seem to be moving in similar directions. And what about 41 and 31? (foregoing the girl; taking the girl?) And what about 42 and 32? (Adding more; continuing as before, more of the same? That seems to be a similar direction, not opposite.) And 38 and 39 would be paired, and it seems they're resonating more than being opposite.

Try thinking of complements rather than opposites. The two hexagrams are the same shape, but like the mould and the cast.

25 vv 46. Disentangling, not wanting to be involved vv confident commitment.
41 vv 31. Reduce emotional attachments, make life lighter (Dazhuan) vv become more open and connected
42 vv 32. See their Images.
38 vv 39... I wrote an article about that years ago, and now I can't find it online anywhere. Oops. Here it is FWIW:

"CLASHING WITH THE WORLD: HEXAGRAMS 38 AND 39

These two hexagrams not only follow one another in sequence,
which always suggests a connection, but they are structurally
opposite. That is, if you change every line of Hexagram 38 to
its opposite, you have Hexagram 39: they are one another's
shadow, or complement.

Opposite hexagrams tend to have some underlying situation in
common - in this case, I think it is the experience of being
different, of finding the world set against you (whether or not
you chose this), and the challenge to create something greater
from this. Opposition centres on a difference of vision, Limping
on a clash between the unyielding world and your chosen course.


*Starting points*

Seeing differently (or having two visions in conflict within
yourself) can mean fundamental disagreement about what is 'real'
- looking with different eyes, and seeing the other point of
view as irreconcilably alien. ('Men are from Mars...') Perhaps
this is someone who stands outside the group, at a distance.

Hexagram 39, in its most negative form, is like someone
struggling on up a mountain path that peters out to nothing
amidst the rocks. Yi, she say: man who exhaust himself climbing
mountain might be going the wrong way. The level ground of the
southwest is a better direction; the commentary on the judgement
adds that to see danger and be capable of stopping is real
understanding.

However, the message of Limping is certainly not only
avoidance. It also represents the labours of Yu, the limping
hero who conquered the floods in China. Because he abandoned the
solitary, heroic approach of his father, Kun, and instead
respected the natural flow of the water and found help for his
labours, his strength was just enough. So this is not about
refusing the task, but rather about transforming your strategy.


*Possibilities*

With divergence and opposition in vision, 'in small things,
good fortune'. Great things will not get done while energies
(between individuals or within the individual) are pulling in
opposite directions. There will have to be some connection
before anything useful can be achieved in practice. Such
connection might begin in small things: if you have
irreconcilable differences on world politics, perhaps you can
have a meeting of minds over gardening.

But the hero of Hexagram 39 can 'see the great person': he has
a single vision of what is possible, and gains help and guidance
for his struggle, so there is good fortune in constancy. He also
has the vision to see what is and isn't worth struggling for,
prefiguring the Release of Hexagram 40.


*Challenges*

The 'seer' in Hexagram 38 is reacting against the familiarity
and security of People in the Home (Hexagram 37), 'turning away'
and going outside the boundaries. But this - like the crossing
in the nuclear hexagram, Already Across (Hexagram 63) - is meant
to be a beginning, not an end. The challenge for her and her
society is to get beyond mutual alienation and connect with
something sufficiently different to expand their vision beyond
its ordinary boundaries - or rather, to expand the boundaries
themselves, the 'Home', to encompass new visions. The inner
trigram, the heart-like lake, needs to respond to and reflect
the outer light of vision, not just fall away from it.

Limping follows from Opposition because 'turning away
necessarily means heaviness'. Limping happens when the potential
in Opposition hasn't been realised, and you're stuck in its
early stages: naturally, a constant stance of opposition makes
life very hard work. But this also means a different challenge,
correcting the extremes of Opposition through hard, practical
work.

Yu's eventual success against the floods proved that true
vision meant not solitary heroism, but the ability to work with
others. The challenge of Limping is to find new strategies, and
perhaps to find a new self in the process. The trigrams show how
'a noble one turns her self around to renew her te': the inner
mountain of a solid and accomplished personality can still be re-
shaped by the dissolving floods that change the world."

 

[fkegan]

The trigram lake in the set of 10 hexagrams from hex 41

That's how I read the King Wen sequence at the moment. It's obviously not a
perfect mathematic hexagram sequence, so the most important thing may have been to show how the eight trigrams alternate with each other? Especially this part of the second chapter seems to
support this point of view:

43 :!! !!! Lake/HEAVEN .......... 44 !!! !!: HEAVEN/Wind
45 :!! Lake/EARTH ............ 46 !!: EARTH/Wind
47 :!! :!: Lake/WATER ........... 48 :!: !!: WATER/Wind
49 :!! !:! Lake/FIRE ............... 50 !:! !!: FIRE/Wind

lienshan

Considering the King Wen sequence in sets of 10, this makes the second set of 10 from the beginning of the second half-- the hexagrams from 41 to 50. So the meaning of all hexagrams are related to the overall gestalt or Monad of hex 41.

Any set of hexagrams in KW sequence can have only independent odd number patterns, the even ones always inversed from the odd, one way or the other. All of the odd numbered hexagrams--41,43,45,47,49 contain the trigram Lake which structurally is two yang lines with the final line open Yin. This structure is pulling strongly upward into the open void of the next, which is a very powerful force pressing upward. One trigram emphasized exactly in all 10 hexagrams, not some of them.

The key to the set, hex 41 is the lower trigram Lake combined with two more open yin lines in the upper trigram (4.5) and the final line place, of the transition to the next being Yang. This is the power of the situation slamming up from within or below to make a difference in the next. Not the blind momentum of 19, but all that energy focused into a conscious effort to reach the next level (yang line in the top place).

Overall, the concept of sacrifice (or in Wilhelm, the transfer from below to above that risks toppling the whole structure) is all about using the resources from within and below to make a difference and a transition into the Next. Sacrifice as an active agent depending upon the inner state (that is why a ceremony calling for 5 rice bowls can be done in this time with 2 since the inner state is so powerful here).

Given the gestalt of the entire set of 10 being so much involved with the trigram of Lake, all of the odd-numbered hexagrams contain that trigram in all the various positions as befits their structural place in the matrix or set of 10 hexagrams.

Just an alternative perspective that is philosophically complete, structurally exact and transcends the detailed math within the hexagrams and trigrams when counted by 6 & 7 or trigram variations.

Frank

 

[hilary]

While I don't normally look forwards in the Sequence in readings (the authors of the relevant Wing didn't, and I picked up the habit from them), I do hold this lakes sequence in mind when I get 41. It seems to me that 41 stores up and prepares an inner resource, which is then ready for interaction with the world in 43, 45, 47 and 49. It's another way to answer the questions that always come up around Offering and Decrease: why do this? what use is it?

 

[lienshan]

Considering the King Wen sequence in sets of 10

31 :!! !:: Lake/Mountain .......... 32 ::! !!: Thunder/Wind
33 !!! !:: HEAVEN/Mountain ..... 34 ::! !!! Thunder/HEAVEN
35 !:! Fire/EARTH .............. 36 !:! EARTH/Fire
37 !!: !:! Wind/FIRE ............... 38 !:! :!! FIRE/Lake
39 :!: !:: WATER/Mountain ...... 40 ::! :!: Thunder/WATER

41 !:: :!! Mountain/Lake ........ 42 !!: ::! Wind/Thunder
43 :!! !!! Lake/HEAVEN .......... 44 !!! !!: HEAVEN/Wind
45 :!! Lake/EARTH ............ 46 !!: EARTH/Wind
47 :!! :!: Lake/WATER ........... 48 :!: !!: WATER/Wind
49 :!! !:! Lake/FIRE ............... 50 !:! !!: FIRE/Wind

The first set of 10 is in a kind of disorder with Lake above Mountain and Thunder above Wind in front.
The second set of 10 is well organized with Mountain above Lake and Wind above Thunder in front.

The first chapter of the King Wen sequence begins with the hexagrams HEAVEN and EARTH
and ends with the hexagrams WATER and FIRE ... and the HEAVEN-EARTH-WATER-FIRE trigram
order is repeted in the well organized 43-50 part of the second chapter ...

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

The first chapter of the King Wen sequence begins with the hexagrams HEAVEN and EARTH
and ends with the hexagrams WATER and FIRE ... and the HEAVEN-EARTH-WATER-FIRE trigram
order is repeted in the well organized 43-50 part of the second chapter ...

lienshan

The first pair of hexagrams 1 & 2 and the last pair 29 and 30 in the first half are all those special pairs which are symmetrical and stay the same when they are inverted. They are the 4 such trigrams that are still symmetrical when doubled into hexagrams. As you point out they are the four cardinal points- heaven and earth as above and below, then more mundane up and down for the final pair as fire and water.

However, why is only 43-50 well ordered, shouldn't a truly inherent, relevant order fit every one of the 64 hexagrams--what is the problem with the others?
Frank

 

[lienshan]

However, why is only 43-50 well ordered, shouldn't a truly inherent, relevant order fit every one of the 64 hexagrams--what is the problem with the others?

An answer could be, that some others are used as disordered contrasts to underline specific well ordered parts of the sequence? Heaven before Earth looks like the main purpose in both chapters.

01 !!! !!!
02
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ..... 31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: ..... the hexagrams in front
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ..... 33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! ..... Heaven combinations
07 :!: 08 :!: ..... 35 !:! 36 !:! ..... Earth combinations

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Is the sequence ordered or only when it fits expected patterns

An answer could be, that some others are used as disordered contrasts to underline specific well ordered parts of the sequence? Heaven before Earth looks like the main purpose in both chapters.

01 !!! !!!
02
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ..... 31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: ..... the hexagrams in front
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ..... 33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! ..... Heaven combinations
07 :!: 08 :!: ..... 35 !:! 36 !:! ..... Earth combinations

lienshan

Heaven before Earth as the main purpose of the Yi?, though only shown in selected small runs of component trigrams with the overwhelming rest of the hexagrams just being a disordered contrast to further emphasize the Heaven-Earth order?

Let me suggest an alternative explanation within the context of the Chinese commentary and the Chinese numerals: (paraphrase)
One becomes two, two becomes three, three gives birth to the 10,000 things.

The numerals for one, two, and three are one, two or three horizontal brush strokes. These are the primal numbers, which research now shows are perceived by the brain as such without counting (also in chimps and birds, etc).

The even numbers less than 10 have ideograms mostly emphasizing that they can be divided into two equal halves--even the six in the form of two equal hatch marks that might seem to point upwards without an open space if only looked at as a graphic.

5,7,9 have their own special meanings.

Ten is the tally set, + or the counting line crossed by a vertical line. In the West tallies are done with vertical marks up to four and then a diagonal to note a set of five from counting on one's fingers. In Chinese it is a set of 10.
Numbers over 10 (less than 100) are drawn as a numeral to show how many sets of 10 and another numeral to show the units.

Taking the T'ai Chi symbol as the philosophical example of the 1-- unity within its outer circumference. The two swirls as the 2-- duality; the 3 as the set of the eyes, the swirls and the outer circle as the three stages of development--arising from the eyes, developing into the swirls and ultimately the entire set of the T'ai Chi circle; and these three being the source of everything, the 10,000 things through the double dichotomy represented by the pair of two eyes in contrasting colors and the two swirls also in contrasting colors, though contrasting to the two eyes.

This would then set the philosophical basis from Chinese philosophical commentary in the Yi and Chinese numeral principles for the sets of 10 as the basis for each and every one of the 64 hexagrams of the Yi--to be organized in terms of the hexagrams ending in 1 to be the unity of the whole set of 10. Those ending in 2 and 3 to be the contrasting two swirls of that set. Those ending in 4,5, 6 the three phases of narrative process 4-the eyes as initial conditions, 5-the swirls of intermediate interaction, and 6- as the explicit product of the process.

Those ending in 7,8, 9, 10 as the double dichotomy of the white and black eyes and the contrasting white and black swirls. Overall this explanation mirrors the ordering from Pythagorean principles. :bows:

The final four hexagrams are then ordered in terms of global line pattern considerations, Inner, Outer, completing, initiating. For the complete system explaining each individual hexagram. Q.E.D.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Heaven before Earth as the main purpose of the Yi?, though only shown in selected small runs of component trigrams with the overwhelming rest of the hexagrams just being a disordered contrast to further emphasize the Heaven-Earth order?

HEAVEN before EARTH is the main purpose of the King Wen sequence, because only hexagram 1
and the pair 43-44 (of the a's) have more yang lines than the following hexagram/pair:

01 !!! !!! ................. a .......... 6 yang lines ............. HEAVEN
02 .............................. less (0) yang lines ...... EARTH
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ...... a .......... 2 yang lines
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: ................... more (4) yang lines
07 :!: 08 :!: ...... a .......... 1 yang lines
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! ................... more (5) yang lines
11 !!! 12 !!! ...... a .......... 3 yang lines
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! ................... more (5) yang lines
15 !:: 16 ::! ...... a .......... 1 yang lines
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: ................... more (3) yang lines
19 :!! 20 !!: ...... a .......... 2 yang lines
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! ................... more (3) yang lines
23 !:: 24 ::! ...... a .......... 1 yang lines
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! ................... more (4) yang lines
27 !:: ::! ................. a .......... 2 yang lines
28 :!! !!: .............................. more (4) yang lines
29 :!: :!: ................. a .......... 2 yang lines
30 !:! !:! .............................. more (4) yang lines
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: ...... a .......... 3 yang lines
34 ::! !!! 33 !!! !:: ................... more (4) yang lines
35 !:! 36 !:! ...... a .......... 2 yang lines
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! ................... more (4) yang lines
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: ...... a .......... 2 yang lines
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! ................... more (3) yang lines
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: ...... a .......... 5 yang lines ............. HEAVEN
45 :!! 46 !!: ................... less (2) yang lines ...... EARTH
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: ...... a .......... 3 yang lines
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: ................... more (4) yang lines
51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !:: ...... a .......... 2 yang lines
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!! ................... more (3) yang lines
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !:: ...... a .......... 3 yang lines
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!! ................... more (4) yang lines
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!! ...... a .......... 3 yang lines
61 !!: :!! .............................. more (4) yang lines
62 ::! !:: ................. a .......... 2 yang lines
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!: ................... more (3) yang lines

Placing EARTH before HEAVEN is maybe the original Guicang version of the hexagram sequence?

lienshan :bows:

Addition:
The pairs 53-54 and 55-56 have both 3 yang lines.
As so they do not fit perfectly into the more and less system ...
They are placed between the hexagrams Thunder/Mountain and Wind/Lake ...

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence from hexagram meaning not trigram stuff...

What is the explicit meaning of the King Wen Sequence?

Is it an elegant poetry to describe the inherent meaning of each hexagram in a decad system based upon the philosophical exposition of the Great One then the Two of duality, the narrative Three and the double dichotomy Four?

Or is it just trigram combinations and line preponderances that almost fit some few hexagrams and those it doesn't fit to be just ignored since the trigram theory is so important nothing else matter?

Various folks can make their own choice. I don't personally find all this trigram stuff at all interesting or enlightening. Though I do find the meaningfulness of the hexagrams in decads amazing and awesome :bows:

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Or is it just trigram combinations and line preponderances that almost fit some few hexagrams and those it doesn't fit to be just ignored since the trigram theory is so important nothing else matter?

The pattern of more or less yang-lines would be perfect if the hexagrampairs 51-52 and 53-54 were placed at the end of the King Wen sequence ... but they aren't, because the purpose obviously wasn't to construct a mathematically perfect sequence but to explain the interaction of certain hexagrams and the eight trigrams.

E.g. The hexagrams Water and Fire are in the end of chapter one. The trigrams Water and Fire are in the end of chapter two. The King Wen sequence is telling about both hexagrams and trigrams! The story begins with the complementary hexagrams 1-2 and ends with the group of complementary hexagrams 51-64. In between
is the middle section beginning and ending with the complementary hexagrams 3 and 50 ...

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

 

[fkegan]

Is the KW sequence about overall meaning of just a heap of details?

The pattern of more or less yang-lines would be perfect if the hexagrampairs 51-52 and 53-54 were placed at the end of the King Wen sequence ... but they aren't, because the purpose obviously wasn't to construct a mathematically perfect sequence but to explain the interaction of certain hexagrams and the eight trigrams.

What is so special about certain hexagrams and the eight trigrams or total numbers of Yang or Yin lines?

The great question with great works of mathematical and philosophical excellence is what are they based upon. The use of the hexagrams to represent numbers in binary code is the basis of the older sequence replaced by the King Wen in about 1100BCE. As Legge puts is so succinctly, the new ordering is Occult. Not a trigram based system of mathematical correspondence, which the British would have been happy to work on and elucidate, but Occult, that is an ordering outside of such objective math and symbol patterns.

The Global Awareness of the 6th century BCE brought this universal occult system, based upon the interaction of the celestial mechanics of the Sun and Solar System interacting with the topography of Planet Earth, to the whole Northern hemisphere (especially if one includes the Wyoming Medicine Wheel). The details of the line balance, Yang and Yin, the trigram combinations, the hexagram pairs by inverse are all transcended by a system that uses all those details as a poet uses a complex rhyme scheme as an underlying matrix or blank canvas (with great texture) to create the meaningful System.

The correspondence of the meanings of the hexagrams to the decad sets of the KWS hexagrams with each hexagram number ending in 1 being the Monad or the entire set in a single hexagram. The set of 10 ends with the final pair which represent the 9th and 10th of the set. The 10th is the final quiescent state and the 9th the penultimate maximum energy state of the set.

So the first decad is the Water Cycle that is described well by hex. 1 Ch'ien, the sunshine that burns off foggy mist to make clouds that bring rain to the fields and supply water for the rivers running to the Sea (or deep Lake). The 9th Hexagram are the winds over the sunshine, the upper level wind systems that bring the powerful winds controlling the weather fronts. The 10th hexagram is the peaceful Lake under the sunshine evaporating water vapor to start the cycle all over again.

The second decad begins with hex 11, the energy of sunshine (Heaven) invested into the Earth to germinate seeds and continue plant life. The 9th of this set is hex 19, the two Yang lines powerfully entering the long column of open Yin expressing momentum at its max. Hex 20 is the two Yang lines in the final places, pulled toward the open column of 4 Yin lines, resisting their continued development into the Next, the situation of Contemplation or taking current development as a model rather than just moving along.

The third Decad completes the first half of the Yi. Hex 21 is Lightning and Thunder, the relationship of Cause and Effect, Karma or Justice. Its 9th hexagram is hex 29 the continuous flow of fast water from the rainfall in the mountains toward its accumulation in the Sea. The 10th is hex 30 the quiescent routine of the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West which is the energy pump of this entire set and entire half of the Yi.

The second half begins with hex 31, the basic sexual attraction of boys and girls which is organized in society into courtship, marriage and family. Its 9th or hexagram of maximum energy is 39, the water fallen high atop the snow capped mountains where it is ultimate potential stored, or more concretely in terms of the family the sexual desire that precedes regular marital relations. Hexagram 10 is the final quiescence after sexual release.

The fifth set begins with hex 41, the decade of human action seeking to align with the sacred (sacrifice and at-one-ment). The 9th hexagram of this set, hexagram 49 is the energy of human freedom and love of justice overthrowing the government grown corrupt through being in power too long. Hexagram 50 is the quiescent state of the bronze Ting used in established sacrifice rituals.

The sixth set begins with hexagram 51 The set of Divine action affecting human life. The 9th hexagram is 59 the high energy of wind and water which can dissolve and wear away anything and often does so quite quickly as in the spring thaw. The final hexagram is 60 of the quiescent state of the water neatly fitting into the structure of the Lake--the entire Cosmic interaction of Solar System celestial dynamics and Planet Earth Topography comes at last to this totally natural yet essential peaceful filling of the Lake with water, not flooding, not lacking due to drought.

The final four hexagrams are also selected by their overall structure and meaning: 61 inside, 62 outside, then completing and finally the hopeful beginning again.

There are fascinating details in the minutia of marking upon the bark of trees, but the importance of the landscape is determined by the forest and its relationship to the topography.

Just another perspective to consider.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

What is so special about certain hexagrams and the eight trigrams or total numbers of Yang or Yin lines?

The great question with great works of mathematical and philosophical excellence is what are they based upon. The use of the hexagrams to represent numbers in binary code is the basis of the older sequence replaced by the King Wen in about 1100BCE. As Legge puts is so succinctly, the new ordering is Occult.

Books were invented in China about 1100 BC ... that's another explanation of why the 28 hexagrams looking different when turned upside down had to be shown both ways! The older sequence consisted of only 36 hexagrams in two chapters of 18 hexagrams probably written on sticks that could be turned upside down. Maybe King Wen changed the order of the hexagrams 1/2 and the hexagrampairs 43-44 / 45-46 in order to put Heaven before Earth? The pattern of less and more yang-lines indicate that he did so:

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

The special about certain hexagrams (1-2, 27-28, 29-30, 61-62) is, that they are primary to be read horisontally in the sequence. They tell what's in front and what's behind. The other hexagrams are primary to be read vertically in the sequence. They tell what's above and what's below expressed by the two trigrams.

lienshan

 

[getojack]

There are fascinating details in the minutia of marking upon the bark of trees, but the importance of the landscape is determined by the forest and its relationship to the topography.

Frank

I think the words you are looking for are "You can't see the forest for the trees."
Anyway, I can see the benefits of both frank's and lienshan's perspectives...

Frank: The sequence is a series of decads with 4 hexagrams left over at the end...
Lienshan: No, it's 36 hexagrams doubled to make 72, subtracting the 8 symmetrical hexagrams to leave 64.
Frank: You're wrong.
Lienshan: No, you're wrong.

Personally, I think the whole thing is an ancient solar calendar based on 12 months of 5 hexagrams (30 days) each, with the last 4 hexagrams used to keep track of intercalary months.... maybe.

 

[fkegan]

Meaning or component details...

{quote] Books were invented in China about 1100 BC ... that's another explanation of why the 28 hexagrams looking different when turned upside down had to be shown both ways! The older sequence consisted of only 36 hexagrams in two chapters of 18 hexagrams probably written on sticks that could be turned upside down. Maybe King Wen changed the order of the hexagrams 1/2 and the hexagrampairs 43-44 / 45-46 in order to put Heaven before Earth? The pattern of less and more yang-lines indicate that he did so:

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comm...nchor-comments [/quote]

lienshan,
I enjoyed the text reference you included, it seems to express your perspective well. Two fundamental questions remain: first, the big change from Shang pyromancy to King Wen Sequence oracles is MEANING over minor details.The earlier format of asking a pair of questions, one the negation of the other is replaced by just one question with the hexagram response being meaningful. The earlier oracle just indicated at best that one question was affirmed and its negation was rejected. The divination could not express meaning, just affirm a question asked. To be sure of an answer, pairs of questions were asked one the opposite of the other and a good answer was one that affirmed one and rejected the other. From 41.5 and 42.2 it seems that folks still didn't have a lot of confidence in the fire cracking, so 10 pairs of oracle bones were required for a truly believable answer.

Second, the article is all about various possible speculations based upon noting that some number patterns or trigram components are shared by various hexagrams without any attention to the specific numbering of the King Wen Sequence. It is a distant and tentative contemplation of a few details--not a clear statement of the rationale and MEANING of the King Wen Sequence. What changes with the KWS is that the oracle became meaningful in and of itself--a tremendous quantum leap leaving all the earlier details and artifacts upon the refuse heaps of history.

A number of things changed in China about 1100 BCE, tortoise shell oracles were out, the old sequence of the hexagrams (as binary counters) was replaced by the King Wen, books appear and the Oracle of the Yi can be consulted from book text without the need for a diviner with bones to fire crack. All of these suggest that the hexagrams acquired MEANING in themselves, and in their sequence order which replaced the earlier attention of various details.

There can only be 64 hexagrams, therefore any sequence of them must include every trigram combination and line structure. So, the sequence is what matters. Only considerations which can explain each and every one of the hexagrams and their sequence numbers are of any value whatsoever. The hexagrams are arranged in the King Wen sequence into pairs but that is only a minor detail having nothing to do with the MEANING of the hexagrams or the sequence.

The meaning of the hexagrams, in my perspective, is not at all controlled or connected to the pairings. It is not trigrams of heaven preceding trigrams of Earth--rather it is hexagram 1, the totality of the process of the water cycle, followed by the meaning pair hex 2 and 3 showing the structural framework of the Earth topography (hex 2) in contrast to the energy process of the weather systems (hex3) and on into larger groups of 3 and 4 hexagrams to make a complete MEANING set of 10 hexagrams.

Any detail not fitting the sequence speculation disproves the entire speculation! There is no connection between the post 1100BCE hexagrams-as-specific-meaning system with the various earlier artifacts where the only the details exist without any overall organization into a meaningful system.

Frank

 

[hilary]

I haven't followed this thread in detail (appreciated Getojack's summary), but just a couple of comments on pyromancy. As far as I know, no-one knows how the cracks were interpreted, or whether they carried more meaning than 'yes'/'no'. And the bone oracle was used alongside the yarrow for a long time and regarded with more respect if anything. (People with fully working brains will be able to give you some sources for that, I expect.)

 

[fkegan]

Try the big picture....

I think the words you are looking for are "You can't see the forest for the trees."
Anyway, I can see the benefits of both frank's and lienshan's perspectives...

Frank: The sequence is a series of decads with 4 hexagrams left over at the end...
Lienshan: No, it's 36 hexagrams doubled to make 72, subtracting the 8 symmetrical hexagrams to leave 64.
Frank: You're wrong.
Lienshan: No, you're wrong.

Personally, I think the whole thing is an ancient solar calendar based on 12 months of 5 hexagrams (30 days) each, with the last 4 hexagrams used to keep track of intercalary months.... maybe.

No, not quite getojack. I was well aware of the traditional aphorism about forest and trees, I was making a detailed application to the specifics here, but good of you to notice the underlying source material.

If the above is the "summary" of this thread Hillary refers to, I would suggest that both Lienshan and my perspectives are being sadly twisted. Lienshan is talking about specific numerals and markings found upon ancient artifacts and their connections to trigrams combinations which can be used in divination to express all possible hexagrams in a minimal number of sticks and the inferences to be gleaned from those trigram and numeral patterns studied in detail.

The possible combinations (or permutations in some other sources) of a six-place matrix with two possible markings are 64--that is the universe we all have to work with. The King Wen Sequence is set up in terms of 32 pairs with each even numbered hexagram being the prior odd number tumbled on its head. The symmetrical ones don't look any different so they must be exchanged as if all their lines were moving to keep with the pattern. How would one get 72 hexagrams in a universe of 64?

My perspective is that the King Wen Sequence is organized not by line pattern, but by overall meaning associated to the entire hexagram as a unique expression of Yang line focus in this 6-place matrix. The overall meaning is organized in terms of the sets of 10 hexagrams illustrating the philosophical points of analysis that can be traced to Poem 42 of Lao Tsu or more exactly given in the Pythagorean Tetraktys. Incidentally, in a universe of 64 entities and decad sets of 10, there have to 4 left over, which the King Wen sequence puts at the end and those last four are selected from their line patterns to express overall hexagram patterns of inside, outside, completing and beginning.

Neither Lienshan nor I were ever so impolite as to call each other "wrong" . The most pointed remark by either of us was the bowing smilie. She continues to point out how the detailed patterns of numerals and trigrams and yang line/yin line support her view while I continue to note that a organized sequence of 64 entities has to be judged by how it organizes all 64 and not what details can be found within parts of the whole.

Your perspective accounts for only the 360 lines from hex 3 line one to hexagram 62 line 6 and then changes inexplicably from 5 hexagrams per month to just a heap of four for "intercalary months.... maybe". Not an explanation of the meaning or rationale of the entire sequence, though it does cling to the Western view that philosophy is just words and somehow their is a simple observational explanation to everything.

However, the Chinese use such extra months (never four of them at a time) to reset their calendar of lunar months to the seasons determined by solar dynamics which leaves open the question of what is "an ancient solar calendar based on 12 months of 5 hexagrams (30 days) each." The solar year is 365.25 days not 360. The philosophically convenient 360, lowest common denominator to the numbers 1 to 12 with 7 and 11 not quite with the program, isn't for observing the actual calendar but thinking about its implications.

However, I do have a correspondence of the 360 hexagram lines (hex 3-62) to the 360 degrees of the Zodiac which leaves the first pair and last pair of hexagrams to represent the cardinal points of the horoscope--sunrise, sunset, heaven and earth. So, my perspective includes yours in terms of associating 5 hexagrams to the 30 degrees of each astrological sign.

Overall, the question remains what is the rationale and explanation of the King Wen Sequence. Associating it to various details of ancient artifacts or calendar marking doesn't explain why each hexagram is given the exact and specific sequence number that it has. When the sequence is explained by universal philosophical principles it does and also brings a depth and richness to the understanding of each hexagram and their sets of 10 which I find quite amazing and insightful.

Hillary,

As far as I know, no-one knows how the cracks were interpreted, or whether they carried more meaning than 'yes'/'no'. And the bone oracle was used alongside the yarrow for a long time and regarded with more respect if anything.

I only know of one source, an article in the magazine Scientific American about the Shang oracle bones finds through history. It noted that the vast artifacts heaps to be found before 1100BCE disappeared within a century, though the author seemed to know nothing of the KWS and its oracle. Lienshan cites another article in her post with similar information and many footnotes to the relevant literature.

I would have to disagree with you that the interpretation of the cracks was not clear or that no one knows its judgments were limited to affirming one of the two paired questions differing only by a negation. Academics tend to recoil when they hit something deemed "occult" but that hardly means the meaning isn't clear. All a cracked shell can indicate is the orientation of the crack to expected crack norms and nothing else is indicated in the bone inscriptions. There is no need for paired questions if you have an oracle that can answer more than yes/no/the cracks are wiggly.

It is tough realizing that the thinking used today in our universities was transcended in China in 1100 BCE, but that doesn't make it any less objectively clear. Perhaps the climate crisis brewing by our blind pursuit of our university beliefs will help illustrate that thinking isn't really the best anymore.

As to continuing to use the older oracle and revering it more, that seems more a comment upon the support for tradition and formal ritual. There is a segment of society who having the money for the ancient fancy ritual prefer it to the simpler text-based oracle that anyone can cast for themselves. The rush to jump on the hot new trend was never completely the way of the traditional Chinese elite (though Gia-Fu noted that his father was very big on Western new sciences in the early 20th century--though he only sent his young son off to America to learn about them).

Frank

 

[lienshan]

The King Wen sequence? Somebody just made it up. Maybe his name was Wen. There's no logic to it. If there was a pattern, a million people would have seen it by now.

I found the pattern, because I asked the question: Why is the order of the pairs 27-28 and 61-62 different?

27 !:: ::! 61 !!: :!!
28 :!! !!: 62 ::! !::

The alternative definition of the complementary pairs 1-2, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 is,
that only these 4 of the 32 pairs consist of various yang-lines (6-0, 2-4, 2-4 and 4-2).

The order of 27 and 28 is explained in Shuo Kua:
Mountain and Lake circulate their material force (the trigrams above read horisontally)
Thunder and Wind give rise to each other (the trigrams below read horisontally)

The one-yang-line trigrams are mentioned first but are placed last in the second chapter of the King Wen sequence? The reason why is as shown in my noteblog, that every second hexagram/pair have more yang lines than the previous hexagram/pair except hexagram 2 and hexagrampair 45-46.

The order of the hexagrams 27 and 28 is logic, while the order of the hexagrams 61 and 62 is systematic!

lienshan

 

[getojack]

No, not quite getojack. I was well aware of the traditional aphorism about forest and trees, I was making a detailed application to the specifics here, but good of you to notice the underlying source material.

If the above is the "summary" of this thread Hillary refers to, I would suggest that both Lienshan and my perspectives are being sadly twisted. Lienshan is talking about specific numerals and markings found upon ancient artifacts and their connections to trigrams combinations which can be used in divination to express all possible hexagrams in a minimal number of sticks and the inferences to be gleaned from those trigram and numeral patterns studied in detail.

The possible combinations (or permutations in some other sources) of a six-place matrix with two possible markings are 64--that is the universe we all have to work with. The King Wen Sequence is set up in terms of 32 pairs with each even numbered hexagram being the prior odd number tumbled on its head. The symmetrical ones don't look any different so they must be exchanged as if all their lines were moving to keep with the pattern. How would one get 72 hexagrams in a universe of 64?

hi frank, there aren't 72 hexagrams... because there are 8 hexagrams which are the same when inverted... namely hexagrams 1, 2, 27, 28, 29, 30, 61 and 62. Sixty-four minus 8 leaves 56 hexagrams which are inverted to form their pairs in the sequence. In the King Wen Sequence, the Upper Canon consists of 6 symmetrical hexagrams (1, 2, 27, 28, 29, and 30) and 24 other hexagrams, right? Let's, for the sake of argument, call those 24 hexagrams pairs "two-sided", meaning they form their pairs through inversion. This means you are left with 12 "two-sided" hexagrams and 6 "one-sided" hexagrams in the Upper Canon, or 18 hexagrams. Now, in the Lower Canon, there are only 2 symmetrical, or "one-sided" hexagrams (61 and 62) and 32 other hexagrams. Again, those 32 can be seen as 16 "two-sided" hexagrams plus the two "one-sided" hexagrams equalling 18 hexagrams again.

My perspective is that the King Wen Sequence is organized not by line pattern, but by overall meaning associated to the entire hexagram as a unique expression of Yang line focus in this 6-place matrix. The overall meaning is organized in terms of the sets of 10 hexagrams illustrating the philosophical points of analysis that can be traced to Poem 42 of Lao Tsu or more exactly given in the Pythagorean Tetraktys. Incidentally, in a universe of 64 entities and decad sets of 10, there have to 4 left over, which the King Wen sequence puts at the end and those last four are selected from their line patterns to express overall hexagram patterns of inside, outside, completing and beginning.

Yes, I've looked at your website and understand your reasoning. Thank you.

Your perspective accounts for only the 360 lines from hex 3 line one to hexagram 62 line 6 and then changes inexplicably from 5 hexagrams per month to just a heap of four for "intercalary months.... maybe". Not an explanation of the meaning or rationale of the entire sequence, though it does cling to the Western view that philosophy is just words and somehow their is a simple observational explanation to everything.

However, the Chinese use such extra months (never four of them at a time) to reset their calendar of lunar months to the seasons determined by solar dynamics which leaves open the question of what is "an ancient solar calendar based on 12 months of 5 hexagrams (30 days) each." The solar year is 365.25 days not 360. The philosophically convenient 360, lowest common denominator to the numbers 1 to 12 with 7 and 11 not quite with the program, isn't for observing the actual calendar but thinking about its implications.

I could go into detail about how you can get 365.25 days from the I Ching, and an even more accurate 365.24218 days, also accounting for the precession of the equinoxes of 1 degree every 72 years, but I think I'll do so in another thread, or maybe on a website. Suffice to say that you have misunderstood what I wrote. I never said that you could use the last 4 hexagrams as 4 intercalary months.... I said you could use the 4 hexagrams at the end to keep track of the timing of those months.

 

[fkegan]

logical analysis of deep trigram issues...

I found the pattern, because I asked the question: Why is the order of the pairs 27-28 and 61-62 different?

27 !:: ::! 61 !!: :!!
28 :!! !!: 62 ::! !::

The alternative definition of the complementary pairs 1-2, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 is,
that only these 4 of the 32 pairs consist of various yang-lines (6-0, 2-4, 2-4 and 4-2).

The order of 27 and 28 is explained in Shuo Kua:
Mountain and Lake circulate their material force (the trigrams above read horisontally)
Thunder and Wind give rise to each other (the trigrams below read horisontally)

The one-yang-line trigrams are mentioned first but are placed last in the second chapter of the King Wen sequence? The reason why is as shown in my noteblog, that every second hexagram/pair have more yang lines than the previous hexagram/pair except hexagram 2 and hexagrampair 45-46.

The order of the hexagrams 27 and 28 is logic, while the order of the hexagrams 61 and 62 is systematic!

lienshan

Lienshan,
Dobro's quote is interesting for its recognition that none of the texts or commentaries explains the logic of the KWS but many, many folks have been fascinated to figure it out. The question then becomes, is the answer to be found in our modern perspectives of those of the ancient world?

So, lets go through your explanation in your terms. First, what is different between hex 27/28 and hex 61/62. The first answer would be 27/28 (and 29/30) completes the first 3 sets of 10 hexagrams making up the first half of the Yi. Hex 61/62 are part of the final four without any set of 10 at all.

The complimentary pairs are formed by changing all the lines in the odd numbered hexagram rather than keeping them the same and just changing the order from first to top. Of course they would be the only hexagrams with a different yang/yin balance, they are the only ones that change line value.

As for the comparison of 27/28 with 61/62, your analysis begins by reading the lines horizontally, although all texts show the hexagrams as vertical. One of the wonders of published books, they allow the text to clearly indicate which way the illustrative line patterns are to go. What does your perspective say, if we keep to the traditional rules that only: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 have different yang and yin lines since if you just turn them over they are still the same hexagram pattern? And read the hexagrams and their constituent trigrams vertically as they are referred to in all text and commentary?

Then the overall question becomes: What for YOU is the relationship of the hexagram line patterns (read vertically) and the meaning or name assigned to those hexagram? The King Wen Sequence of the hexagrams is all about how the meaning or name of the hexagrams fit together one after the other. Why is one line pattern hex 20 and the next pair have a totally different line structure? --stuff like that

On to getojack --

Who cares about the difference in hexagram pair alternation between tumbling top to bottom and changing all the line values between yang and yin ?
The pairs have each even number hexagram inversed from the prior odd numbered hexagram, whatever way is necessary to see the difference. Is there any relationship between the pairs and the King Wen Sequence? To the meaning? To the reason why the next odd numbered hexagram has the line structure that it has?

That detail of the pairs has fascinated many folks, but like deep analysis of the rhyme scheme of a well-ordered sonnet, it isn't much help in understanding ANYTHING! NO Meaning in it! What does any of that say about why any of the hexagram patterns are placed in that specific location? None of the hexagrams is where it is because of the line pattern before it, each one has MEANING and the elegant pair details just an additional layer of amazing work--pairs are all background like poetry rhyme schemes!


King Wen was not Lewis Carroll making playful mathematical parodies of English poetry. All the pair-stuff is just the canvas upon which the KWS is very elegantly and artistically drawn. Meaning not line patterns are what is built into and explains the KWS.

Let me clue you in to a bit of a secret about the fine detail of astrophysical correspondence to the multiple decimal points...none of it means anything. The great understanding of the ancients was that things in the natural world DID NOT exactly and precisely match up to anything. Much better to use a symbolic circle of 360 degrees and not get hung up in the trivia. With symbolic geometry you can actually make sense of timing cycles, timing analogs, and timing analysis of YOUR life and fundamental questions.


http://www.stars-n-dice.com/astronomydebunked.html
Perhaps you would care to check out my web page on the argument how current astrophysics is debunked by the reality of the Big Bang Theory, though without realizing observed results have exposed paradigm flaws in the theory of Newton, Einstein and made academic objections to astrology obsolete. Our whole galaxy including our solar system is just a bit of debris from the Big Bang Explosion which still has timing tides measured by horoscopes, but few detailed viable relations useful to multiple decimal point places--
all those different cycles just aren't precisely correlated. The universe holds together not by magical gravity but simple logic, anything not sharing the general angular momentum of Planet Earth for the last umpteen billion years was left behind long ago.


Or in the alternative: If the Yi is for keeping track of calendar observations, why isn't it included in the millennia of recorded astronomical and calendar observations in China? Folks tend to mention those things if they are part of their actual work.

Things have to have connections, you can't just grab the easily corollary to your established expectations and assume that is really the deep reality of everything else.
Evidence, connection, logical argument, something, please.:bows:

The King Wen Sequence of the Yi is a work of amazing philosophy which can be used to understand anything you wish, but its structure and meaning is purely philosophical and can only be explained through philosophy grounded in the insights of the ancient world.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

So, lets go through your explanation in your terms. First, what is different between hex 27/28 and hex 61/62. The first answer would be 27/28 (and 29/30) completes the first 3 sets of 10 hexagrams making up the first half of the Yi. Hex 61/62 are part of the final four without any set of 10 at all.

More specific: My question was, why hexagram !!::!! is placed before hexagram ::!!:: ?

My explanation is, that it's to fit the pattern of more and less yang-lines in the King Wen sequence:

Chapter one 6-0-2-2-4-4-1-1-5-5-3-3-5-5-1-1-3-3-2-2-3-3-1-1-4-4-2-4-2-4
Chapter two 3-3-4-4-2-2-4-4-2-2-3-3-5-5-2-2-3-3-4-4-2-2-3-3-3-3-4-4-3-3-4-2-3-3

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

What's your explanation?

One of the wonders of published books, they allow the text to clearly indicate which way the illustrative line patterns are to go.

The earliest known evidence of the King Wen sequence is inscribed on the 3000 years old pottery pat. Hexagram 7 horisontal upside down, hexagram 8 vertical, hexagram 9 horisontal and hexagram 10 vertical.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=399&d=1184489318

My pointe is, that the King Wen sequence was invented before books were invented and that's why we have to look otherwise than bookreaders at the sequence to understand it.

lienshan

 

[hilary]

That detail of the pairs has fascinated many folks, but like deep analysis of the rhyme scheme of a well-ordered sonnet, it isn't much help in understanding ANYTHING! NO Meaning in it! What does any of that say about why any of the hexagram patterns are placed in that specific location? None of the hexagrams is where it is because of the line pattern before it, each one has MEANING and the elegant pair details just an additional layer of amazing work--pairs are all background like poetry rhyme schemes!

In great poetry, the rhyme scheme is typically part of the meaning, even when it is laid down by the rules of the form, as in a sonnet. So this is not a great choice of example.

The fact that hexagrams form meanings within pairs doesn't necessarily tell you anything about why those pairs are arranged the way they are in the King Wen sequence, true. It's possible to imagine a 'loose leaf' oracle in which the pairs were known as units of meaning, but no particular order of them was given preference. Maybe the meaning created by pairs is independent from the meaning created by the sequence (or maybe it isn't), but this hardly makes the pairs themselves meaningless. (Good grief!)

A more general point, though: I would warn against taking anything about the Yijing, be it apparently fundamental or apparently inscrutable, and pronouncing that it has 'no meaning'. All you can safely say is, 'I see no meaning in it.'

 

[hilary]

Two questions for lienshan

A couple of questions for lienshan:

What do you mean by 'Complementary hexagrams in the King Wen sequence read backwards'? I'm trying to see what pattern you've seen.

How would you use these insights into the sequence within the context of a reading? If I'm at hexagram 26, for instance, how does understanding the sequence in this way help to 'locate' me in my situation?

Thanks!

 

[meng]

The great understanding of the ancients was that things in the natural world DID NOT exactly and precisely match up to anything.

Found this needle in a rather large haystack.

 

[fkegan]

Meaning is always within context, or from Tao arises the One...

In great poetry, the rhyme scheme is typically part of the meaning, even when it is laid down by the rules of the form, as in a sonnet. So this is not a great choice of example.

The fact that hexagrams form meanings within pairs doesn't necessarily tell you anything about why those pairs are arranged the way they are in the King Wen sequence, true. It's possible to imagine a 'loose leaf' oracle in which the pairs were known as units of meaning, but no particular order of them was given preference. Maybe the meaning created by pairs is independent from the meaning created by the sequence (or maybe it isn't), but this hardly makes the pairs themselves meaningless. (Good grief!)

A more general point, though: I would warn against taking anything about the Yijing, be it apparently fundamental or apparently inscrutable, and pronouncing that it has 'no meaning'. All you can safely say is, 'I see no meaning in it.'

Hi Hillary,
The relationship of meaning and rhyme scheme is a great academic debate, so its reference here to the KWS is a "great choice of example." In an argument over meaning to cite the details of the rhyme scheme highlights the different perspectives involved which was the point of the post.

The Big Question is: do the details of the pairs of hexagrams determine the KWS or are they just the background to a larger picture? Does finding meaning in these pair details offer ultimate insight or are they a distraction from figuring out what the sequence is all about and appreciating the awesome majesty of its MEANING?

True, meaning is to be found anywhere (and everywhere). I am not saying the pairs are meaningless, just that their meaning is simple, clear, obvious and a distraction to the larger and more impressive Big Picture Meaning. For example, one can easily say that the placement of particular line pattern in an even number of the KWS is clearly determined by its pair relationship to the preceding odd number. However, the meaning (and name) of that hexagram is not necessarily derivative of the prior hexagram. The magic of the perspective seeing the sets of 10 in terms of subsets of 1,2,3,and 4 is that between the pairs of hexagrams ending in 1 and 2, or 3 and four or 6 and 7 the meaning is established in a completely different way where the detail of the line patterns being related isn't involved. Yes, saying it had no meaning at all is a bit of hyperbole, more exactly, that level of meaning is negligible relative to far greater and more impressive systematic meaning of the decad.

Meng,

Glad to hear you found something you appreciated, hopefully over time you will come to appreciate the organization and content of the rest of what you now only perceive as a haystack. Good metaphor for text you don't relate to though.

One of the great insights of the ancients was that only in the realm of the symbolic could a clear, simple, precise set of relations be established, although it was possible to relate real world experience to symbolism and the symbolic mapping used to explain real world experience without getting hung up in the details and limits of the approximation.

Lienshan,
My explanation for why the pair 61/62 begins with 61: These final four hexagrams are those whose fundamental meaning is expressed in the overall line pattern. The sequence number 61 should express the Monad of the group or the total set (in this case just of 4 hexagrams) in this single hexagram. The line pattern of 61 uses its 4 Yang lines to form a background frame within which the 2 open Yin places are the focus. Cf Lao Tzu poem 11--the open hub to a powerful wheel is a major Taoist metaphor. Thus this line pattern is perfect for the sequence position of hexagram 61. The notion of the outer form of the line pattern focusing the inner meaning is what this group of four final hexagrams is all about. Q.E.D.

The notion that the best meaning is given by the first tangible expression of something is part of a long tradition of the Old School, where today is seen as a pale shadow of better times long ago. Did the Yi start out complete and come to pieces through time? Well, the general legend is that first the hexagrams were ordered and then individual meanings were added within that framework. That implies an evolution going forward in time, not an original revelation that is only partially maintained.

Personally, I prefer the notion that hexagram sequence is complete enough and meaningful enough in the form that was published without needing to look at it sideways to squeeze out extra meaning. Further, since I don't recognize an independent. objective existence to Yin I have a hard time counting the Yang/Yin balance. To me there is an overall matrix (gua) within which Yang focus forms a gestalt image with the remaining Open places being background which is called Yin. The development of separate Yin lines along with the Yang places in the gua matrix seems a simplification for the use of the Yi in Imperial Civil Service exams.

Frank

 

[meng]

Meng,

Glad to hear you found something you appreciated, hopefully over time you will come to appreciate the organization and content of the rest of what you now only perceive as a haystack. Good metaphor for text you don't relate to though.

Actually, I find your lengthy lectures more along the lines of Chris Lofting's. There's interesting points, but you have to wade through a lot to find it.

 

[hilary]

Found this needle in a rather large haystack.

Thanks! I'm sure it'll come in useful.

I was just entertaining myself looking for patterns with the nuclear hexagrams in the Sequence. (Yes, I do have other things I should be doing.) There are 8 pairs of nuclear hexagrams, of which 4 resolve to hexagrams 1 and 2 (as the 'seed in the seed') and 4 to 63-64.

This small pattern-hunt reveals that these two 'directions' for nuclear hexagrams are balanced out carefully within decades. Hexagrams 1-10: 3 pairs resolving to 1-2, 2 pairs resolving to 63-64. Hexagrams 11-20: 2 pairs resolve to 1-2, 3 to 63-64. And so on through the sequence, a regular alternation of 3:2 and 2:3.

Other notes: hexagrams 1-10 contain only three pairs of nuclear hexagrams. The same is true of the 30s, the first decade of the Lower Canon. The rest contain 4 or -in the case of the well-ordered 40s - 5.

The nuclear pair 63-64 are the last to be introduced, finally making their entrance, twice over, in hexagrams 37-40. (27-28, the second-to-last to be introduced, appear first as the cores of 29-30, closing the Upper Canon.)

All this looks intentional to me, though please don't ask me what use it might be in readings.

 

[fkegan]

line structure and nuclear hexagrams

Hi Hillary,
The corner hexagrams (seed within the seed, hex 1,2,63,64) are determined by the line pattern in the 3rd and 4th places of the general hexagram. The nuclear hexagrams add the four possibilities of the 2nd and 5th line places.To have a nuclear hexagram of 1 or 2 requires the four inner lines (2,3,4,5) to all be either Yang or Yin. In a set of 10 hexagrams, if 6 are one type, then there only are 4 to be anything else.

The development of hexagrams from their corners and nuclears allows for another dimension of analysis in divination. An oracle hexagram has a development process within itself where the heart line pair (lines 3 and 4) can be magnified into a corner hexagram (1,2,63,64) which then interacts with the will line pair (lines 2 and 5) to form the nuclear hexagram. The nuclear hexagram then interacts with the environment line pair (lines 1 and 6) to form the oracle hexagram. Moving lines in line places 2 to 5 change this development process. Moving lines in only the 1st and 6th places keep the same internal situation and only change the relationship to the roots or the Next.

Meng,

Actually, I find your lengthy lectures more along the lines of Chris Lofting's. There's interesting points, but you have to wade through a lot to find it.

Again, I am glad you find interesting points. We differ about the rest of the stuff in my posts that you don't relate to yet. My posts are intended to explain my perspective, so if you only operate in terms of your own perspective, you will only find an occasional bit here and there that crosses your path as relevant to you.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Hi Hillary,
The corner hexagrams (seed within the seed, hex 1,2,63,64) are determined by the line pattern in the 3rd and 4th places of the general hexagram. The nuclear hexagrams add the four possibilities of the 2nd and 5th line places.To have a nuclear hexagram of 1 or 2 requires the four inner lines (2,3,4,5) to all be either Yang or Yin. In a set of 10 hexagrams, if 6 are one type, then there only are 4 to be anything else.

The development of hexagrams from their corners and nuclears allows for another dimension of analysis in divination. An oracle hexagram has a development process within itself where the heart line pair (lines 3 and 4) can be magnified into a corner hexagram (1,2,63,64) which then interacts with the will line pair (lines 2 and 5) to form the nuclear hexagram. The nuclear hexagram then interacts with the environment line pair (lines 1 and 6) to form the oracle hexagram. Moving lines in line places 2 to 5 change this development process. Moving lines in only the 1st and 6th places keep the same internal situation and only change the relationship to the roots or the Next.

Yes... all this is evident from the way nuclear hexagrams are built. I like the way you describe the pairs of lines 1-6, 2-5 and 3-4 as environment, will and heart. It gives another way of thinking about the intrinsic natures of line positions, and one can never have too many of those

What isn't in the least evident from the way nuclear hexagrams are built is that there should be an even balance between the two pairs of 'corner hexagrams' (another description I like) as nuclears within each decade. Why not some disordered arrangement like 5:0, 1:4, 3:2, 3:2, 0:5, 0:2? But instead we get 3:2, 2:3, 3:2, 2:3, 3:2, 1:1.

I wonder whether a clearer pattern would emerge if we looked at this through the lens of nuclear trigrams rather than hexagrams? Since those are said to be an older tool, and hence maybe more likely to be what the sequence authors had in mind when creating this balance. Hm. Nothing leaps to the eye for me. Anyone?

 

[lienshan]

A couple of questions for lienshan:

What do you mean by 'Complementary hexagrams in the King Wen sequence read backwards'? I'm trying to see what pattern you've seen.

How would you use these insights into the sequence within the context of a reading? If I'm at hexagram 26, for instance, how does understanding the sequence in this way help to 'locate' me in my situation?

The pattern I've seen is related to the distribution of the yang-lines. They seem to follow the rule,
that every second hexagrampair and the hexagramsingles 2-28-30-61 consist of MORE yang-lines
than the previous hexagrampair/single:

Chapter one 6|0*|2-2|4-4|1-1|5-5|3-3|5-5|1-1|3-3|2-2|3-3|1-1|4-4|2|4|2|4
Chapter two 3-3|4-4|2-2|4-4|2-2|3-3|5-5|2-2*|3-3|4-4|2-2|3-3|3-3|4-4|3-3|4|2|3-3

The only exceptions are hexagram 2* and hexagrampair 45-46*, where Heaven is placed before Earth.

My backwards reading of the complementary hexagrams is inspired by Frank. His ideas seem to fit with the structure of chapter two: The King Wen sequence ends with a group of 14 complementary hexagrams, that can be divided into two groups of 10 (51-60) and 4 (61-64) complementary hexagrams. The first 20 hexagrams of chapter two can be divided into two groups of 10 hexagrams with the complementary hexagrams
31 Lake/Mountain and 41 Mountain/Lake first. Lake above Mountain isn't natural and cause disorder in the group. Mountain above Lake is natural and cause order in the group, the socalled "Lake-sequence".

The complementary hexagrams of the "Lake-sequence" are read backwards hexagram 3 and 4, the first of the non-complementary pairs in chapter one, and 21-22-23-24-25-26, the last six of the non-complementary pairs in chapter one ... that's where I am at the moment and I think that it's far too early to make conclusions concerning readings?

lienshan

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