Sequence of the Hexagrams

[fkegan]

Nuclears and interpretation

Hi Hilary,
The line pairs have oracle interpretation slogans that are useful. I developed those early in my structure work so that I could do original divination with my Apple //e computer just keeping track of yang or yin in line places. The major line pair divination slogans refer to how the nuclear is being affected by the environment. Your feelings are the nuclear hexagram, the environment is then by line pair either: isolating, squeezing, pushing along, or resisting you and that is creating the oracle hexagram.
In terms of nuclear trigrams, the lower nuclear in divination is: desires felt as, upper nuclear is: desires seen as. Together, the nuclear is how one feels or what is happening inside you that is the motivation originating this oracle in its interaction with external reality as you see it.
When appearing on a computer monitor out of the blue (or green with the old //e) in answer to a question someone cares about it gives the impression of the machine knowing your inner process.
As to the Sequence in terms of the mix of yang and yin lines in the 3rd and 4th line places. I only deal at the other ends of the meaning spectrum-- how the hexagram meanings arise from the Yang line patterns and the sets of 10. You can get a bit of feeling about the corners in your terms, looking at the hexagram patterns overall and seeing where they have a solid or open middle and where they are mixed, not trigrams but heart line pairs on the fly.

Lienshan,
I am delighted my perspective sparked insights in yours. Lake Above Mountain is certainly rare in nature (crater lakes where volcanoes fill with water at top mostly). By set meaning, that set of 10 is the beginning of the second half, all about sex actually and how it forms families.In pure line terms, the trigram of Heaven (Sunshine) in the upper nuclear trigram of the hexagram Earth or how desires are seen when they appear in the land or in courting couples being respectable.

Frank

 

[getojack]

The overall meaning is organized in terms of the sets of 10 hexagrams illustrating the philosophical points of analysis that can be traced to Poem 42 of Lao Tsu or more exactly given in the Pythagorean Tetraktys.

Where is your evidence that the authors of the Yi knew about Pythagorean Theorems???

... I do have a correspondence of the 360 hexagram lines (hex 3-62) to the 360 degrees of the Zodiac which leaves the first pair and last pair of hexagrams to represent the cardinal points of the horoscope--sunrise, sunset, heaven and earth. So, my perspective includes yours in terms of associating 5 hexagrams to the 30 degrees of each astrological sign.

Let me clue you in to a bit of a secret about the fine detail of astrophysical correspondence to the multiple decimal points...none of it means anything. The great understanding of the ancients was that things in the natural world DID NOT exactly and precisely match up to anything. Much better to use a symbolic circle of 360 degrees and not get hung up in the trivia. With symbolic geometry you can actually make sense of timing cycles, timing analogs, and timing analysis of YOUR life and fundamental questions.

You may not know this, but the Chinese have traditionally divided the heavens into 365.25 degrees, not 360 degrees.

Things have to have connections, you can't just grab the easily corollary to your established expectations and assume that is really the deep reality of everything else.
Evidence, connection, logical argument, something, please.:bows:

I agree with you here... so where is the connection between assigning meaning to groups of 10 hexagrams, when the entire yi seems to be either binary (yin/yang) or "base 6" (6 lines per hexagram)?

 

[fkegan]

Back to basics...

1. Where is your evidence that the authors of the Yi knew about Pythagorean Theorems???

2. You may not know this, but the Chinese have traditionally divided the heavens into 365.25 degrees, not 360 degrees.

3. I agree with you here... so where is the connection between assigning meaning to groups of 10 hexagrams, when the entire yi seems to be either binary (yin/yang) or "base 6" (6 lines per hexagram)?

1. On my website of course, check my signature for directions.

More accurate statement is that Pythagoras joined the 6th century BCE global awareness which the King Wen Sequence centuries earlier expressed, though no explanation manual was left by King Wen so folks continue to think erroneously that (3) the Yi seems either binary or base 6 or having two kinds of lines Yin and Yang.

Try two sets of 7 year silent meditations and check back with me (secret--it is the 14 years of life development which is truly effective medicine for your problem).

2) Glad to see you agree with me that your post that the 64 hexagrams were 12 lunar months and 4 left over is silly. The ancient Chinese were clearly well aware of the solar calendar; and such a primitive lunar approximation was a not reasonable option.


Want to trade strange facts of Chinese astronomical expertize?

There was a note on the Web that JPL or some astrophysical computer types found the humongous conjunction which tradition marks as the beginning date for the Chinese calendar. Or as the ancestors put it.. darn clever them Chinese!

Silliness aside, the King Wen Sequence put into the matrix of the Tetraktys (which can also be extracted from Poem 42 and the Tai Chi symbol) gives an elegant and insightful explanation of the association of particular sequence numbers to specific hexagram line patterns. It is then self-evident that this is the explanation and meaning of the KWS.

Frank

 

[getojack]

1. On my website of course, check my signature for directions.

Hmm... I'm still looking for that evidence....... nope, haven't found it yet.

More accurate statement is that Pythagoras joined the 6th century BCE global awareness which the King Wen Sequence centuries earlier expressed, though no explanation manual was left by King Wen so folks continue to think erroneously that (3) the Yi seems either binary or base 6 or having two kinds of lines Yin and Yang.

what are you saying? that there are in actuality 4 kinds of lines... (young and old, solid and broken?) That still doesn't explain why they supposedly organized the whole thing in groups of 10. Stop banging your head against that wall and say what you mean.

Try two sets of 7 year silent meditations and check back with me (secret--it is the 14 years of life development which is truly effective medicine for your problem).

huh? what problem is that? are you giving me medical advice now? Or are you implying that I'm young and stupid?? well, i'm glad that you know me so well as to be able to diagnose me over the internet... good to know.

2) Glad to see you agree with me that your post that the 64 hexagrams were 12 lunar months and 4 left over is silly. The ancient Chinese were clearly well aware of the solar calendar; and such a primitive lunar approximation was a not reasonable option.

what????? I never said anything about any lunar calendar. I specifically said *solar* calendar. I also already explained to you that the 4 hexagrams left over are not meant to represent 4 months, but you continue to misconstrue my posts... wait a minute, while I OK, one more time and listen up this time... 365.25 days averaged over a number of years... figured it out yet? Or do I have to spell it out for you?

360 day year
+
31 day intercalary month after 6 years
+
32 day intercalary month after 12 years
...
repeat indefinitely...

Average=365.25 day year

See? Very easy...

Silliness aside, the King Wen Sequence put into the matrix of the Tetraktys (which can also be extracted from Poem 42 and the Tai Chi symbol) gives an elegant and insightful explanation of the association of particular sequence numbers to specific hexagram line patterns. It is then self-evident that this is the explanation and meaning of the KWS.

ahhhhhh, yessss, it's self-evident. of course.

 

[Sparhawk]

what are you saying? that there are in actuality 4 kinds of lines... (young and old, solid and broken?) That still doesn't explain why they supposedly organized the whole thing in groups of 10. Stop banging your head against that wall and say what you mean.

Hmmm, if I understand Frank correctly, I think he doesn't believe in the duality within hexagrams. No yin/yang... Hexagrams resemble peg-boards where you hang solid lines... But, more than likely, I'm wrong...

 

[fkegan]

Getojack,
It's been 14 years already? You went through 456 pages of text that quick? Have you emptied your tea cup or are you still pouring everything in on top of the stale old tea?

Who is they you say wrote the KWS? You expect the King Wen Sequence was the work of a committee?
What does the phrase "complete philosophical analysis is done in terms of the Monad, the Dyad, the Triad and the Tetrad" mean for you? You find that format insufficient for you?

What is this obsession you have with lines? They are just graphical symbolism, Yin is open space like zero in the decimal number system--though that number system is generally explained from two hands with fingers and thumbs in the academic perspective.

Actually, I searched the threads you started for input about your condition.
I wrote my first philosophical paper on the metaphysical ideals of ignorance and stupidity. I think you are using the technical term "stupid" incorrectly here. Try hex 4 overall judgment and all 6 moving lines for an alternative. That is all the diagnosis appropriate to this thread.

Where is your evidence of "a 360 day year
+
31 day intercalary month after 6 years..." You feel only the West can manage a 4-year leap year cycle or that the Yi is all about 6's?

The Yi refers to a lunar calendar and the Chinese historically adjust it?
Where would a solar calendar from modern Greenwich observatory pop up to the ancient Chinese?

How do you derive an average from an infinite series of corrections? I had profs try that with the approximate equation for heat capacity which was magically supposed to yield a differential of entropy. Not evidence. An infinite series of approximations never reaches an average, its measured difference from such an imagined average just gets less and less of a difference from observed results. OK in Western math, but foolish in metaphysical philosophy where such sleight of hand is just cause for everyone else to laugh up their sleeves at you.

Why would they use 4 full hexagrams to represent your complex system of single extra months every 6 years? Especially when 360 works so well for the degrees of a circle and 4 so well for the double dichotomy anchoring that circle in symbolism? Such an approximate series just highlights the limitations of the such a connection, with the annoying nuisance of trying to get theory to work but never quite to match empirical observation until it disappears into infinity.

Why would they care about the details of accounting for the difference between days and years in a work of symbolic philosophy? Did the committee of the KWS take classes with you through a wormhole in time?

I would congratulate you on recognizing that the demonstration of the sets of 10 is self-evident-- if you bother to check it out; but I forgot the ancient Greeks said that any scientific demonstration must be self-evident in its deductive logic from premises to conclusions, but they limited that it is only self-evident to "reasonable humans" and your using the indicates that you don't include yourself in that group.

Why? Is it truly that painful to you to open up your mind enough to check out a different perspective?

You have not come forward with a single iota of any evidence for your position or against mine, other than your expectations that only your prior beliefs are meaningful and everything else is denied as not being in your prior beliefs. The more you go over what you hold as the only possible views, the clearer it is that they are irrational and erroneous.

Since you can't relate to my views, perhaps you can elucidate your own and notice where they got lost between classroom and Star Trek convention. So, again-- you believe the hexagrams are organized upon the basis of the 30 degrees of an astrological sign going back to the Olympian gods used as part of a modern solar calendar, but with four hexagrams dedicated to an infinite series of adjustments once every 6 years?

You account for the extra days and fractions from 360 to 365+ by some system that relates to 4 hexagrams. Are your four the corner hexagrams 1,2,63,64 or some others that you chose either as a solid block (1,2,3,4) or (61,62,63, 64) and how do each of them relate to your infinite series of extra months every 6 months? Are the first 3 hexagrams this adjustment series for 6*18 years and then 64 used as a "start over from the beginning" code word? Why are the first 36 years of this series assigned to the specific hexagram you have chosen in your final four? And the next, so on for the next three? And how do the hexagrams come to express the infinite regression of your approximate series?

Give me your detailed evidence how you get your system to work within the lines of which four specific hexagrams, and how you correspond the other 60 to the days of the year? Who is day one? Is that the vernal equinox, the victory of the light or what day goes to the first hexagram?

Frank

 

[fkegan]

hexagrams as symbolic peg boards

Hmmm, if I understand Frank correctly, I think he doesn't believe in the duality within hexagrams. No yin/yang... Hexagrams resemble peg-boards where you hang solid lines... But, more than likely, I'm wrong...

Oh, Luis, you got it exactly right.! ompom: And I thank you for giving me an opportunity to click that cheerleader and take her into my post. I have been ogling her for a while now and wondering when it would be possible to click her.

The secret of the Yi hexagrams is that they are not concrete things. They are symbolic forms. Like the Zen master who tried to get his students to look up at the full moon by pointing with his old, arthritic fingers toward it. But instead of noticing the lovely full moon that night; they broke into competing schools teaching which was the correct configuration of fingers and palm to perform the secret, magic spell to acquire the power of the magical lunar Yin goddess.

The Open sesame to unlock the deep dark grotto of Yi studies is the simple principles of sequence:

• 1 precedes 2 which precedes 3...6 is the final of this timing and the transition to the subsequent),
• Yang as gestalt image or focus,
• the matrix of analysis of anything numbered in decad sets--one as unit, two polar opposites, triptych narrative and finally a double dichotomy of structure/dynamic and maximum energy/final quiescence

All the rest is imagery and commentary.

I still haven't figured out how some folks stay so hung up on the line structure pairs of even and odd numbered hexagrams in the KWS (for me it is just an homage to rolling a pair of dice and the ancestral roots of Chinese gambling interest we see here in Las Vegas--but then my insights come from looking deeply at a dice cube).

The claim of a binary numerical basis is to the hexagrams is even more bizarre. The definition of a binary number system is that it is a place value matrix with only ONE significant digit. One, not two, Just one and the general matrix of the system. Yang is focus and Yin is just open space like zero which carries the whole notion of the place-value system into graphical symbolism. Such a shock--the Yi is a binary number system and like all binary systems, there is one significant digit or mark and an overall matrix system that doesn't always have to be significant or marked, but it can't be done away, something has to hold its place so you don't have to draw grid lines over the whole page.

That the Yang line patterns and the KWS numbers explain so much; involving NO language you might notice, just a sequence structure and a single significant marking is truly amazing. That these same patterns can be meaningfully and independently analyzed in terms of their 6-line structure or the sequence of their two 3-line halves or their three line pairs (again like the dice cube, 1-6, 2-5,3-4) working upon absolute Center [the open space between trigrams or lines 3 and 4], again without any language, is another order of magnitude of awesome.

Add to all that the hexagrams can be related to the synapse connections of the brain neurons and you have a theory of brain function to produce meaning that has no origin in language or learned perception or any of those quaint objective notions. King Wen observed his world and meditated upon how the mind worked and integrated them both together using the hexagram format that previous just counted out a sine wave pattern for the Tai Chi. His son was able to add the meanings of the individual lines within that hexagram sequence.

Then like most great intellectual innovations, its direct transmission got lost within a century of its discovery, and later folks only vaguely remembered how the elders of that original group described it all to the quite young grandchildren and from then on it was a magical and religious thing for millennia. Pottery, metal, the base-60 measurement of time and timing, KWS. That is the history of intellectual innovation.

Or, YES, Luis, hexagrams in the abstract are peg boards to hang yang lines and the King Wen Sequence is the key to understanding the ordering of those patterns by their meaning overall not just their trigrams, number of yang lines in total, opposite pairing or any other smaller detail than the big picture of the whole enchilada or combo plate.

Frank

 

[pakua]

Add to all that the hexagrams can be related to the synapse connections of the brain neurons and you have a theory of brain function to produce meaning that has no origin in language or learned perception or any of those quaint objective notions

Quick, someone call Chris!!

 

[luz]

ompom:---------[ Why do I feel so cheap....? ]

 

[Sparhawk]

Quick, someone call Chris!!

Chris was Mr. Spock. Frank here is Lt. Commander Data...

 

[Sparhawk]

ompom:---------[ Why do I feel so cheap....? ]

Because you are only wearing pom poms, a hair-bow and bouncing around??

 

[fkegan]

Is the Yi ancient Chinese or computer science stuff?

Chris was Mr. Spock. Frank here is Lt. Commander Data...

Hi Luis,
For me, ompom: feels cheap since the rest of her body isn't drawn in with its complex angular momenta to balance the forces set loose by her pom-pom action.
Me as an android? Reminds me of the taunt from my childhood, "as an observer, what do you think of the human race?" Went along with "What's Up?" to which the obvious reply was, "Away from the center of the Earth."

I looked up Chris Lofting he is a computer scientist who thinks dichotomy is primary. I prefer to use Chinese number philosophy. Looking through Wiegar, S.J. I came upon Lesson 24 A Shih2 + the number 10,The number that contains all the other simple numbers. 24 C Shih4, an affair, a thing...Because all things are comprised between the two terms of numeration [one] and [ten]. By extension a sage.

Lesson 3A San 3, The number of heaven, earth, humanity. B. Wang2 King According to the ancients...the one, the man who connects together heaven, earth, and humanity.

Or to answer getojack:

so where is the connection between assigning meaning to groups of 10 hexagrams, when the entire yi seems to be either binary (yin/yang) or "base 6" (6 lines per hexagram)?

Where don't you find sets of 10 and a primary division in terms of the Planet Earth, human society, and the Cosmic in the Yi? First half is exactly those three sets of 10, understanding of which is important to the sage or required to be a sage. And the second half is everything else in the universe of possible patterns in the 6-place matrix starting with human sexual attraction as the natural basis for society in general and the family in particular. Next human attempts to connect with the Cosmic or divine, and finally the Cosmic stepping into human life. Q.E.D.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Luis,
For me, ompom: feels cheap since the rest of her body isn't drawn in with its complex angular momenta to balance the forces set loose by her pom-pom action.

Gee... Where is your imagination?? But, of course, is not the same when you use that clip. Lightangel, oh the other hand...

I looked up Chris Lofting he is a computer scientist who thinks dichotomy is primary. I prefer to use Chinese number philosophy. Looking through Wiegar, S.J. I came upon Lesson 24 A Shih2 + the number 10,The number that contains all the other simple numbers. 24 C Shih4, an affair, a thing...Because all things are comprised between the two terms of numeration [one] and [ten]. By extension a sage.

Brave man, going after Chris. Where were you a year ago? I would have reached for a bucket of popcorn, a beer, sat down, and watch the ensuing arm-wrestlings...

 

[fkegan]

Sequence based musings...

Gee... Where is your imagination?? But, of course, is not the same when you use that clip. Lightangel, oh the other hand...

Brave man, going after Chris. Where were you a year ago? I would have reached for a bucket of popcorn, a beer, sat down, and watch the ensuing arm-wrestlings...

Hi Luis,

I live in Vegas, we see the lack of the full, explicit figure as just being an insufficient investment in ink and animation to draw in what is clearly offered up all around out here.

I spent a few decades arm wrestling the likes of Chris L and getojack but now after being a short while in the public school teaching racket (and being in my 7th decade--7th ) I just smile and go for the simple logic [also called the jugular].

The notion that math is primary and the Yi is binary and therefore about dichotomy is simply and literally medieval superstition. We now have access to notions like concept, process and gestalt which leaves medieval Scholastics [or contemporary computer types] in the dust.

I am more intrigued by the bits of Chinese number philosophy from the ideograms. After my last bit of pique about the hexagram pairs, I had cleared out enough internal RAM (as it were) to start to think that the sets of 10 are composed of 5 pairs and 5 is a special number. In Chinese it refers to the five cardinal points or the double dichotomy with their center emphasized as another equal point.

One might be able to connect each of the odd numbered hexagrams in each set of 10 to one of those cardinal points. Hopefully, hexagram ending in 1 would be central. The others would fall into two pairs. The even number hexagrams would then have to be related to this mandala. Not my issue, as the saying goes, but maybe of interest to the hexagrams in pairs folks.

Ultimately, my imagination with the pom-pom smiley went to how would I feel if your dragon's fire was coming her way, toasting her fluffy pom-poms while she continued to dance and cheer and tan herself with ever more intense tan lines.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Ultimately, my imagination with the pom-pom smiley went to how would I feel if your dragon's fire was coming her way, toasting her fluffy pom-poms while she continued to dance and cheer and tan herself with ever more intense tan lines.

Frank

Are you kidding? I'm brave online; if I ever came across Lightangel in pom-poms (or Trojan, in black, high-heeled boots and a whip), I would most likely have a "fire-throwing dysfunction"... I don't think any lab is working on a blue pill for that kind of problems for dragons... Or are they?

 

[getojack]

I spent a few decades arm wrestling the likes of Chris L and getojack but now after being a short while in the public school teaching racket (and being in my 7th decade--7th ) I just smile and go for the simple logic [also called the jugular].

Hey, I saw in another of your posts that you're 60 years old... I don't arm wrestle old men...

 

[fkegan]

Any more questions about the explanation of the KWS?

Are you kidding? I'm brave online; if I ever came across Lightangel in pom-poms (or Trojan, in black, high-heeled boots and a whip), I would most likely have a "fire-throwing dysfunction"... I don't think any lab is working on a blue pill for that kind of problems for dragons... Or are they?

You ask where is my imagination and I answered.
Keep to the ethereal plane and you don't have to worry about the actions of mere bits of Planet Earth surface molecules putting other bits on as costume.

I am still torn between contemplating your dragon firing the Argentine meat chart for mixed grill and contemplating the Pom-pom being tempted to dance faster and/or undo the spaghetti straps by the sexy dragon fire.

Now on to rugrat duty,

Hey, I saw in another of your posts that you're 60 years old... I don't arm wrestle old men...

You only arm wrestle kids even younger than yourself? What a sport!

And I didn't notice any response at all from you to all my pointed questions about your unexamined and unsupported assumptions. When you find yourself unable to respond to philosophical disputation, sticking out your tongue is considered a gesture of surrender.

So, you've lost this round of "arm wrestling" too.

Chinese numbers don't agree at all with your binary or base 6 assumptions.
Clearly meaning beyond details of graphic symbolism eludes you totally.
You can't fathom the difference between 360 degrees in a circle and the approximate numerical equivalents between the various Planet Earth observed angular momenta--(day, month, year --you know they are just apparent, really the Earth is in motion and that is what produces "gravity" which doesn't quite match up with the math and assumptions of Newton and Einstein).

And, as you say I can't arm wrestle you, a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Frank (Dr. Kegan to children)

 

[getojack]

And I didn't notice any response at all from you to all my pointed questions about your unexamined and unsupported assumptions. When you find yourself unable to respond to philosophical disputation, sticking out your tongue is considered a gesture of surrender.

So, you've lost this round of "arm wrestling" too.

Be patient, sport.... the game's not over yet. Your reply is coming...

...to be continued

 

[hilary]

*****************
Virtual Popcorn
On Sale Here!!

*****************
​

 

[fkegan]

Muhammed Ali--I was talking to up the gate...

Be patient, sport.... the game's not over yet. Your reply is coming...
...to be continued

OK, not too long, as you noted I am old and not getting any younger. BTW when you explain your concordance of the Yi to the "360 day solar year" don't forget to deal with the Ptolemy-Julian problem...that the 360 day year is astrological, based upon the lowest common denominator for the numbers 2-12 with 11 ignored and 7 given special non-integer status.

Things astrological are based upon the seasons and the cardinal points of the solstices and equinoxes (a simpler use for the first and last pair of hexagrams outside the 360 lines of hex 3-hex 62--but you rejected that option).

If you are jumping to conclusions from the "solar year", you first must define your 360 days in relation to one of the many 'annual' cycles in light of the myth based Constellations from Ptolemy still used in astronomy. You get only one at a time, and then must account for the sidereal problems as the correspondences don't exactly fit to observations since the whole solar system is in complex motion (which T.Kuhn noted in his book Copernican Revolution [ISBN 1-56731-217-9] none of the set from Copernicus through Newton and Einstein truly believed as their paradigm, just as a convenience for their equations) which is only now intelligible through Big Bang theory.

I was thinking over your bad reaction to my assumption you knew "month" came from 'Moon' and were purely lunar and totally distinct from years that come from the seasons based in the celestial mechanix of the Earth and apparent motion of the Sun through the ecliptic. My apologies for assuming you knew anything, as your posts so far indicate your ability to understand what you read is severely limited and your education mostly from Star Trek.

So, I am looking forward to your cogent analysis of the underlying astrophysics, with of course the connections to the Chinese philosophical realities of 1100 BCE and their number system with its sets of 10 where each of the numbers 1-10 (by their ideogram names) clearly are NOT mere digits as in the West. Rather Chinese numerals are tied to the specific number theory entities of each of the first 10 natural numbers (1-10) which we in the West know about primarily through the work of Pythagoras.

Citations of references by Title, author and ISBN of the edition you researched will be sufficient, but expected!]

Hilary has upped the ante on you... if you take much longer you will need to buy popcorn for the assembled audience while they wait....the donation clock is ticking. And in answer to your age taunt with ...let me remind you to have your diaper changed regularly while you screw up your courage to the point you can reply. [The commercial on U.S. TV for the stock broker whose online trading system is so easy a baby in diapers can use it seems a great illustrative example of your ilk. Who knew back in the first half of the XXth century what rugrats could do with their computers these days?]

I never thought much of Confucius' rule that one was not fit to study the Yi until age 40, but you are showing me the practical wisdom of the rule, in at least some cases. I am keeping my tongue firmly and modestly in my cheek (its old like me and shy).

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy. D. [but age 60 and deteriorating fast]

 

[martin]

*****************
Virtual Popcorn
On Sale Here!!

*****************
​

When does the match start?
I understand that the debate will be about an issue that is only mildly interesting, if at all. How many angels fit on the tip of a needle (42 of course!) or something similar. But if there is popcorn ...

 

[hilary]

I have no idea when, or whether, the match will start. Buy your virtual popcorn before the rush - we might run out.

Meanwhile I've got stuck in a pattern of seeing stories in the sequence. The hero separates from his community, takes on the heroic task... makes sacrifices, is blessed... enters the abyss, reaches the source, brings about change... I could squish hexagrams 38 through 49 into that, no problem - and 38 and 49 have reversed trigrams, of course, so isn't that neat? (Not sure what to do with 40, or 43 through 46, but I'm sure I could contrive something.) I'm afflicted with hyperactivity of the story-telling imagination. Probably the cure is forthcoming, though.

 

[fkegan]

Playing the game...

Martin,

When does the match start? I understand that the debate will be about an issue that is only mildly interesting, if at all. How many angels fit on the tip of a needle (42 of course!) or something similar. But if there is popcorn ...

The match started awhile back, you missed several rounds...get your popcorn NOW while you go back to page one and pick up the whole thread and the match and bring yourself up to date.

The Scholastic disputation as in [De gustibus non disputata sunt] is from the early centuries of the just ended modern millennium (1001-2000 CE) You are part of the final century of that sad millennium. The medieval Scholastic argument did not actually involve specific numbers. It was a question of whether angels were material beings which would have to take up space or NOT.

The head of a pin, BTW is the flat part at the other end from the sharp point, where angels would have a good floor to dance upon. The tip of the needle is only for those not sharp enough to pay attention without a bit of a prick with it or thinking of their meds they need for personal stimulation.

It is the individuals in the match who you more appropriately find only mildly interesting (we are just an old gladiator and an enfant terrible). The match is a community EVENT... bringing Roman urban amusements to the ancient Chinese trading post---and the popcorn is in a no-host bar, so its only there if you BUY IT! .

We gladiators are sweating and straining, risking it all; not just for your TV couch potato sense of narcissistic power until the next commercial or clicker choice, but in the ancient tradition--to stimulate you to buy refreshments from the concession stand that pays for our forum.

The notion of a specific number as anything to do as the noble discussion of angel dancers, as you choose for yourself exactly 42, is a sorry artifact of the attempts to reconstitute the University 'academy' after the Black Death killed off the scholars and left the survivors with just the library of books that they mistook as a direct gift from the Divine (like the aqueducts which they imagined must have carried Nectar for the gods before and now only water).

Each book in the library, believed a revelation of Absolute Truth, as you so succinctly note in your reference to hexagram 42 expressing your sense of Blessing as Divine gift coming down to you as you read selected but various texts.

You may pick your arena to challenge the survivor of this match if you wish?



Hilary,
Try your narrative starting with the beginning.... hex 1 Father interacts with hex 2 mother to create a pregnancy hex3 that gives birth to a rugrat hex 4 while waiting hex 5 older siblings watch the patterns in the clouds until the rugrat cries (hex 6) to have its diaper changed (hex 7 and hex 8) by the time they get back outside to play, the wind has blown the clouds away, so they go to their different playthings. Hex 10, the youngest daughter (though not the rugrat baby of hex 4) eagerly follows after Father, so intent upon his cue (or queue) that she keeps stepping upon the back of his shoe, which at first Father turns around to glare at the impudence, but seeing his adorable, loving daughter just smiles and uses those shoe falls as an indication that she is still behind him and OK. End of first decad....

I will let you work out the others your own way, second decad I suggest is elementary school, boys and girls in class together for basic socialization. Third (21-30) is high school, learning about cause and effect and other school studies. That completes the first half, or children's stuff. Part II is for adults...

The fourth (31-40) decad is puberty and family. Fifth (41-50) would be the serious young adult seeking spiritual advancement through sacrifice. The final decad is 51 to 60 is the hero's quest through natural awesome events like thunder hitting just next to you. To find his final answer, like Dorothy of Kansas to be back home in the simple things like water filling in a lake ( hex 60) as truly awesome Divine mystery.

And the final four are about the entire narrative and its moral.

One of the nice things about the decad system is that it will fit into all other traditional symbolic matrices or myth narratives. Which is also how the Yi relates to Pythagoras although no one has a tomb artifact indicating his travels East to at least Turkey and Egypt did include access to Chinese thought through those traveling what would become the Silk route after Alexander opened up trade between the Hellenistic Empire and India.

Frank :bows:

 

[martin]

You may pick your arena to challenge the survivor of this match if you wish?

Hmm, I don't know Frank, if you survive this match and I challenge you we will have two mildly(?) uninteresting sweating OLD gladiators in the next.
I'm afraid nobody will want to watch that, not even if Hilary gives her excellent popcorn for free!

 

[fkegan]

And in this corner....

Hmm, I don't know Frank, if you survive this match and I challenge you we will have two mildly(?) uninteresting sweating OLD gladiators in the next.
I'm afraid nobody will want to watch that, not even if Hilary gives her excellent popcorn for free!

{bold underlining added}

Oh Martin,

You are so quaint. The wonder of the Internet is that we are all eternally young online and so no one ever sees or smells the sweat and we are unisex too.

It appears to be a long intermission while rugrat figures out how to man up and surrender which would be a step up in maturity or manages to check his sources and try to fire up his internal contradiction engine to get back to the arena.

Fear not I survive all matches, I have friends in the ethereal when the phalanx literally comes after me. I am an experienced gladiator starting back in the day when student arguments brought out armed troops who fired tear gas and marched in phalanx formation with riot batons. Made the old saying, sticks and stones... quite clear. Or as Nietzsche and a later cartoon character put it...what doesn't kill you outright, just makes you stronger.

As to whether the audience would want to watch... as long as it has something to do with the King Wen Sequence of the Hexagrams, I'll find a way to make it interesting for the crowd.

By the bye, YOU have already been challenged, entered the ring and not done so well in the opening round....but scoring is up to the judges not us...

I checked your new threads, we share many commonalities though quite opposite perspectives. Perfect for a friendly gladiator match.

Which highlights the first and most important difference...you cling more to the Zen side of Buddhism while I to the Taoist.

Gia-Fu noted the difference between Zen volleyball and Taoist volleyball. The Buddhists tried to keep the volley eternal, thus no one ever scored any points. The Taoist played totally competitive volley ball to win the 21 points as soon as possible and then ignored the score and the win, it was just exercise and release of tensions.


Time for the ompom: as the ring girl with the round sign...pick a hexagram number or two if you can't think of anything else to say...:bows: to formalize the next challenge.

The meaning of any hexagram is best given by its KWS number and the placement of its Yang lines in the open space of the Yin-gua. Response?

[Free virtual testosterone emanates from the smileys like salted snacks on the bar]

Frank

 

[hilary]

The judges? Ah. Their satnav malfunctioned and they're currently visiting a small bar in rural Bulgaria. Fortunately no-one noticed.

Frank... thank you for the further story. Yes, the sequence (in decades) and the life story fit together beautifully, including - in the hands of Scott Davies, at least - with a more Chinese outline. And y'day I was reading Caroline Myss's version of the narrative of life up until 28, which also had its uncanny moments when she started naming specific numbers:

"At age 7, we begin learning what it means to be responsible, not just for our belongings, but for our actions and deeds as well. Through ages 7 to 13 we develop further emotionally as we are introduced to larger issues of morality, ethics, loyalty, and the rules of relationships.
[Then a chunk about the teens with no specific ages mentioned, but sentences you could map effortlessly to 15-16 and 17-18.]
...Finally, the power of the spirit emerges around the age of 21, as you begin to see beyond the physical aspect of life to find symbolic meaning in your actions... Around age 28 you naturally transition into the next cycle of your life as an interconnected, responsible adult."

As for the hero's journey... for years 61-62 have looked to me like seeing the truth and then carrying it back into real life. Now 47-48-49 and onward look something like that, too (abyss, source, visionary change) - and we haven't even mentioned the original abyss followed by light back at 29-30.

If you want to map each hexagram firmly to a single point in a single story, you'll certainly need to do this on a grand scale, as you've done. I find I'm not so interested - that it's more vivid to me as a set of interwoven miniatures, coming in and out of focus with the qualities of each reading.

 

[lienshan]

The King Wen sequence explained:

The King Wen sequence was developed from an older sequence for two reasons. The first reason was political, to identify the Mandate of Heaven theory. That's why hexagram Heaven was put before hexagram Earth in the beginning of the King Wen sequence and too in the beginning of the socalled "Lake-sequence" (43-44 was put before 45-46). The second reason was practical, to make the sequence suited for an new invention: books. That's why 28 of the hexagrams were shown both upright and upside down which make them look like pairs and which made the first chapter consist of 30 hexagrams (15 pairs) and the second chapter consist of 34 hexagrams (17 pairs) all in all 64 hexagrams.

The older sequence explained:

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

lienshan

 

[lindsay]

Confirmation for Hilary's Notion

I think there is something in what Hilary is suggesting. Below is a transcription of “Appendix A: The Sequence of the Hexagrams” from Greg Whincup’s book “Rediscovering the I Ching” (1986 – 22 years ago!). Whincup was mining the same vein of Chinese historical scholarship as Richard Kunst and Edward Shaughnessy in their dissertations, but never received the attention they did. Whincup got a degree in Chinese from the University of Toronto, and did graduate work in Chinese poetry at the University of London. He also published a good introduction to Chinese poetry with interlinear Chinese and English. Actually dared to show what his translations were based on – astonishing!

Whincup was interested in recovering the Zhouyi – that is why some of his hexagram names, supposedly more accurate, are different from the traditional ones.

Whincup thought the sequence of hexagrams told a unified story about the Zhou conquest, following King Wen and an unnamed Shang vassal. According to Whincup (pp. 5-6): “There is also a pattern in the sequence of the sixty-four hexagrams. This follows a nobleman’s rise from obscurity and weakness to a position of great power. It appears to be loosely based on the rise of the lord of Zhou from chief of an obscure western tribe to king of all China.”

“The story starts with Qian (1) Strong Action and its protagonist goes through several cycles of advance and retreat, allegiance and dissatisfaction, subordination and independence, gradually increasing in power. He reaches the height of power in Ge (49) Revolution, where he overthrows the king, and Ding (50) The Ritual Caldron, where he establishes his own regime. The final fourteen hexagrams, from Zhen (51) Thunderbolts to Wei Ji (64) Not Yet Across, follow a new protagonist, a vassal of the conquered king, as he finds a place in the new order and then begins his own advance.”

Here is Whincup’s full version of the story (pp. 211-215). I think it would be OK to read it metaphorically and substitute the gender of your choice. I’m sure this is not the only possible story, but it does illustrate a type of literary interpretation of the King Wen sequence different from the usual numerological speculations.

Lindsay



Qian (1) Strong Action: Active principle. A strong person appears and takes action.

Kun (2) Acquiescence: Passive principle. He should become the subordinate of someone greater.

Tun (3) Gathering Support: He must restrain himself and gather support before advancing to enter the ruler’s service.

Meng (4) The Young Shoot: He does not restrain himself, but advances recklessly. Fortunately, someone else restrains him.

Ru (5) Getting Wet: He is now strong enough to brave difficulties and go to join the ruler.

Song (6) Grievance: He complains to his ruler that he is not being given opportunities for advancement.

Shi (7) An Army: He earns advancement by fighting in his ruler’s army.

Bi (8) Alliance: His allegiance to the ruler protects him from harm.

Xiao Xu (9) Small Is Tamed: He advances too quickly, but restrains himself in time to avoid conflict with the ruler.

Lu (10) Treading: He advances too far, offending against the ruler, but his offense is forgiven.

Tai (11) Flowing: He makes a smooth, strong advance with his ruler’s help.

Pi (12) Blocked: His ruler blocks his advance.

Tong Ren (13) With Others: He advances in company with others, not alone.

Da You (14) Great Wealth: He has wealth to buy his ruler’s favor and is enabled to advance.

Qian (15) Modesty: He is strong enough to advance into high position, but modestly refrains.

Yu (16) Contentment: He is strong enough to become a leader, but too content as he is to make the effort.

Sui (17) The Hunt: He goes out and wins merit.

Gu (18) Illness: He retreats to his home to care for his sick father.

Lin (19) Leadership: He rises from below to assume a minor position of leadership.

Guan (20) Watching: He stops to observe his situation, remaining a subordinate rather than advancing into a dangerously high position.

Shi He (21) Biting Through: By determined action, he wins through to a shining prize.

Bi (22) Adorned: The shining prize he has won makes him attractive to his ruler.

Po (23) Destruction: He sets himself too high and is cut down.

Fu (24) Return: He retreats in time to avoid this destruction.

Wu Wang (25) No Expectations: He abandons his ambitions and good fortune comes to him.

Da Xu (26) Big Is Tamed: He allows himself to be tamed and put to use by his ruler.

Yi (27) Bulging Cheeks: Having “fed” to the point that his cheeks bulge, he stops to digest his gains so that his bulging cheeks will not attract attack.

Da Guo (28) Big Gets By: He has gone too far to stop and must forge ahead.

Kan (29) Pits: He advances and falls into difficulties, but will be rescued by his ruler.

Luo (30) Shining Light: His shining ruler nurtures him.

Gan (31) Movement: He begins to move again, after having been stopped by his fall into difficulties.

Heng (32) Constancy: Though once again active, he is careful not to attempt to raise his status.

Tun (33) The Piglet: Like a piglet, he accepts confinement and grows bigger.

Da Qiang (34) Big Uses Force: Like a charging ram, he grows big enough to burst free of his confinement.

Jin (35) Advancement: He is granted advancement by his ruler.

Ming Zhi (36) The Bright Pheasant: He is a brilliant minister whose ruler will not listen to his advice.

Jia Ren (37) The Household: Despite some dissatisfaction, he remains an obedient member of his ruler’s household.

Kui (38) Estrangement: His estrangement increases and he leaves his ruler’s service.

Jian (39) Stumbling: On his own, he runs into difficulties.

Xie (40) Getting Free: He extricates himself from difficulties by withdrawing.

Sun (41) Reduction: Only by reducing himself from independence to a subordinate position is he enable to advance.

Yi (42) Increase: He advances quickly, doing great deeds in his ruler’s service.

Jue (43) Flight: His ruler orders him to stop, but he keeps rushing forward and runs away.

Gou (44) Subjugated: He does not run away, but stops and is subjugated.

Cui (45) Gathering Around: Rather than being subjugated, he freely rallies to his ruler’s service.

Sheng (46) Rising: He rises in his ruler’s service.

Kun (47) Burdened: He is granted high position in the service of his ruler, but his position is a burden to him because of the ruler’s failings.

Jing (48) The Well: He realizes that the ruler is not nourishing his people and that he himself would do better.

Ge (49) Revolution: He overthrows the ruler.

Ding (50) The Ritual Caldron: He establishes a new regime.

Zhen (51) Thunderbolts: A vassal of the deposed ruler quakes with terror as the conquerors strike like thunderbolts.

Gen (52) Keep Still: The vassal keeps still and out of harm’s way.

Jian (53) Gradual Advance: He moves gradually toward union with the conqueror.

Gui Mei (54) A Maiden Marries: He joins the conqueror humbly, like a lowly concubine, and is able to rise to high status.

Feng (55) Abundance: He finds a place in the glorious new order.

Lu (56) The Wanderer: He continues to seek his proper place in the new order.

Xun (57) Kneeling in Submission: He has no alternative but to kneel to the conqueror.

Dui (58) Stand Straight: He rises from his knees to his feet.

Huan (59) The Flood: He is swept off his feet by the ruler’s power, but ends up in an unexpectedly high position.

Jie (60) Restraint: He restrains himself from seeking a dangerous advance.

Zhong Fu (61) Wholehearted Allegiance: He remains a loyal subject of the ruler and does not seek independence.

Xiao Guo (62) Small Gets By: He succeeds by remaining small and doing only small things.

Ji Ji (63) Already Across: He has forded the river of finding a place in the new regime. Now a new river of achievement lies before him, which he must not enter too boldly.

Wei Ji (64) Not Yet Across: He has not yet reached the far shore of the river he is fording. Greater achievement is possible to him if he keeps on.

 

[martin]

By the bye, YOU have already been challenged

OMG, where? When? I have been challenged and I didn't notice?! I must be really getting old. Or too Zen. It's hard to distinguish between challenge and no-challenge if you only see emptiness wherever you look, I can tell you!

Anyway, what was it about? 42 perhaps? I don't remember exactly what happened with computer Earth and the Vogons and all that. Did Earth already find out what I have known all along, even before Deep Thought was built, that '42' is the answer to the Question "How many angels ..?"?
If not, I suggest that we go to The Restaurant at the End of the Universe and wait there till Earth finally sees the Light. Or the Darkness, whatever. The thing is going to crash anyway. They have good wine there and popcorn .. oh, wait, the crowd .. okay, I will bring my laptop, it has a cam (and a hacked copy of the Deep Thought and Earth programs too, btw). The crowd can watch us eat and drink and laugh, and see their nonexisting universe explode and .. how about that?
Much better than a Roman arena with smelly tigers, don't you think?

Gia-Fu noted the difference between Zen volleyball and Taoist volleyball. The Buddhists tried to keep the volley eternal, thus no one ever scored any points. The Taoist played totally competitive volley ball to win the 21 points as soon as possible and then ignored the score and the win, it was just exercise and release of tensions.

Hey, that would make me a Taoist!

The meaning of any hexagram is best given by its KWS number and the placement of its Yang lines in the open space of the Yin-gua. Response?

The KWS number doesn't tell me much, but I never studied the KWS in depth, so let's say I'm just ignorant, okay? One extra glass of wine for you.

Yin as open space, background, yang as figure/foreground, that's the idea, yes? Gestalt. I remember that you wrote something about Lofting and that he sees a dichotomy where there is none. He identifies yang/yin with differentiating/integrating, though, and also with conscious/unconscious, is this so far removed from the figure/background idea?

But, however this may be, I find it hard to settle for one way of reading the 'code' of the lines.I can also read yang/yin as tense/relaxed, for instance, or as closed/open, or as potential/kinetic (in terms of energy, that's more or less how Richmond does it).
It's clear that these different ways of interpreting yin/yang have a lot in common, but they are not the same, and I can't find one concept that covers them all.

It's like all concepts are too small. Does this mean that 'yin' and 'yang' aren't concepts? Then what are they? Archetypes? Platonic ideas? Forms in the supramental that are beyond the ordinary intellect? Do they perhaps belong to the world of angels (Alam-i-Malakut) of Sufism?
A QM analogy would be that yin and yang are wave functions that 'collapse' when the context is defined (when you ask the oracle a specific question, for instance). Then, and only then, they become concepts that the ordinary intellect can grasp.
(I don't like it very much, btw, when people (like Capra) go on and on about the supposed similarities between QM and mystical awareness. QM is 'only' a way of thinking, mystical awareness is being. That's a totally different cup of tea.)

The same is true for the line positions. On the trigram level, I can see line 1,2,3 as start/middle/end of a process (that's how you see it, I think?) but also as inside/contact zone/outside or as do/feel/think or ..
Again uncollapsed wave functions, it seems, as long as the context (the question) is undefined.

What shall we order? Spaghetti with tofu dragon?

 

[hilary]

Lindsay - there's also considerable 'story' to the sequence in Freeman's Chameleon Book (have you got that one? you'd enjoy it) and the Idiot's Guide to the I Ching (in a section for each hexagram labelled 'What this hexagram is about', all woefully inadequate). Thank you for the reminder of Whincup's vision of the story. Especially interesting is his take on what happens after 50, that this follows a new protagonist.

Martin - :bows: