Sequence of the Hexagrams

[getojack]

hey frank and anyone else who's vaguely interested... here's a short primer on using the yi jing as a "calendar" in the most generic sense of the word... useful if you're stuck on a deserted island with only a copy of the yi jing, perhaps, and would like to keep track of how many days have passed and maybe you're thinking "has it been a year yet?"

or maybe you're imprisoned like king wen and you don't know if it's daytime or nighttime, but you know the 64 hexagrams and you'd like to keep track of what day it is and how many days you've been stuck there....

1.1 first day... i've been here a day now... maybe i'll etch a line in this wall, but if i'm here for a very long time, then there will be a helluva lot of lines here... hmm
1.2 second day...
1.3 third day...
1.4 fourth day....
1.5 fifth day....
1.6 sixth day....
2.1 seventh day...
2.2 eighth day...
2.3 ninth day....
.
.
.
5.5 twenty-ninth day
5.6 thirtieth day... hmm... that's about a lunar month... more or less... twelve of these will bring me to 60.6... that'll be 360 days, right?
.
.
.
60.5 359th day
60.6 360th day... well... now what? still got 5.25 days to go 'til the end of a year... but there are a few hexagrams here left over at the end... hmm... what if i use the next hexagram to keep track of the number of years i've been on this island/in this cell... ok...

61.1..... one 365.25 day year minus 5.25 days... i'll be 63 days behind the times after twelve years...
... back to square one...
1.1 day 361
1.2 day 362
.
.
.
60.5 day 719
60.6 day 720... but what's this first yang line doing in 61.1? it's place is already filled... oh yeah, that was last year... let's add another line here for the second 360 day year... now i'm 10.5 days behind the times... but hey, after 12 years, if i continue like this, i'll be at line 62.6 and an even 63 days behind the times...

hey, here's an idea... i can add 31 days after 6 years and 32 days after another 6 years.... i'll be at 61.6 after 6 years, so that hexagram will be completed... so i'll just tick off one hexagram per day from 31 to 61 inclusive for that extra month after those six years....

... and after twelve years, i'll be at 62.6, and that hexagram will be completed, so i'll tick off one hexagram per day from 31 to 62 inclusive after the second set of six years, adding another 32 days.... then i'll be back in line with the 365.25 day/year calendar. cool!

and... this only requires 62 hexagrams and could be used with any 62 hexagrams any order... it doesn't attempt to explain the KWS in terms of application to vernal equinoxes, exact lunar months, or any of that blather... 'cause all i really care about is how many years i've been stuck on this desert island/in this prison cell...

 

[fkegan]

What a disappointment you best efforts turn out to be...

Well Getojack,

You replied, though not to any of the things you claimed in earlier posts or that I challenged you about or... anything much else, so you forfeit the match.
However,
Assuming you have enough of an access to light and dark to know when a day has passed, you could also twig to the difference in light from new moon to full moon and back which would be far more useful to a prisoner.

In the alternative, if that is too empirical for you, if you want to use the hexagrams as a blind counter, just use them in the pre-King Wen Sequence counting out in binary number, starting with hex 24 overall, say your Sabbath or the anticipation of a new week, then mark each of the lines as moving to count through the 6 lines to complete the first week. You could employ your empty hours by working through each of these calendar oracles and learning about the lines.

Then move on to hex 7 for two, 19 with 3...and so forth for to 63rd week with hex 1 take off the next week, hex 2 for zero for a holiday and know you have spent a day each contemplating each hexagram overall and each of its individual lines moving to become a better person in your cell.

However, on a thread referring to the King Wen Sequence, coming to an ultimate conclusion that you don't care about the sequence since you have no idea what it could be about is just silly.

And rather clearly notes that you have only the grease from the top of your head to contribute about the KWS, having no business hassling folks talking about things you admit you are both ignorant of, and unable to appreciate at all.

Suggestion: Stick to threads that you know about and are interested in and accept that we are all mortals and of finite understanding and knowledge, and just because you can't grasp a train of thought is not justification to try to break the thread.

Or to reference Dobro's new thread, check out hex 21.1--put on some shoes and walk straight so you don't have to suffer through the other lines of that hexagram. No point in signing off to such a rugrat...

Returning to the KWS.... Its improvement upon using the hexagrams as a binary counter is clearly manifest. What can you know from a hexagram pattern numbering X in binary code? Very little. When computers use this (or its hexadecimal version) it requires an explanation of what that number refers to.

A computer friend of mine noted that no one has known what goes on inside a chip for decades. They come with instructions that various operations are coded to number ABC and you just go from there. One of the reasons for the fears about Y2K was that no one knew what was going on inside the chips which all followed the protocol of displaying the date as their major proof they were functioning OK.

Or... you can find true geographical North through major computer analysis in connection with GPS satellites or you can watch the shadow of an 8-ft stick which will point due North at the midpoint of the sun's path each day, as the sun appears to pass the zenith and definitely casts its shortest shadow of the day. On the day of the equinox the right angle of the shadow is impressive. On the solstices the shadow swings wild through the day.

That shadow will also mark out a T'ai Chi through the seasons.

Frank

 

[getojack]

Suggestion: Stick to threads that you know about and are interested in and accept that we are all mortals and of finite understanding and knowledge, and just because you can't grasp a train of thought is not justification to try to break the thread.

sorry, i was under the apparently mistaken impression that this is a free forum where i can express my thoughts without the "forum police" stepping in and telling me what i can and can't say...

 

[getojack]

I am an experienced gladiator starting back in the day when student arguments brought out armed troops who fired tear gas and marched in phalanx formation with riot batons.

judging from your posts, my guess is you were on the side of the riot police...

 

[lienshan]

One more indication of the theory, that the King Wen sequence is made by changing the positions of
Heaven and Earth 1 <=> 2 and 43-44 <=> 45-46 in an older sequence of 36 hexagrams in two chapters:

Chapter 1: 01-02-03-05-07-09-11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-28-29-30
Chapter 2: 31-33-35-37-39-41-43-45-47-49-51-53-55-57-59-61-62-63

The above "King Wen order" include 9 of each trigrams except 10 Lakes and 8 Winds ...

Chapter 1: 02-01-03-05-07-09-11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-28-29-30
Chapter 2: 31-33-35-37-39-41-45-44-47-49-51-53-55-57-59-61-62-63

The above "Older order" include 9 of each trigrams ... and each chapter is made of 9 "less and more" pairs.

That'll say, that the socalled "Lake-sequence" seems to be an King Wen invention, because 43-44 was turned upsidedown when it was placed before 45-46 in the King Wen sequence.

lienshan

 

[getojack]

hi lienshan, ok... let's assume for the sake of argument that king wen made a couple of changes in hexagram positions from an older sequence... why, then are the hexagrams placed in those particular positions in the older sequence? is the only reason for that particular placement so that 9 of each trigram are included and hexagrams with fewer yang are placed before hexagrams with more yang? because i can think of many other sequences which would accomplish the same goal... so why that particular sequence?

 

[fkegan]

sorry, i was under the apparently mistaken impression that this is a free forum where i can express my thoughts without the "forum police" stepping in and telling me what i can and can't say...

There are rules to everything and freedom is universal, not just for little you. We all get to express our thoughts too, like how silly a rugrat you are.

BTW it is called netiquet....here is one link for you since you clearly need it. I hope you can bother to read it and absorb the concept.

http://www.managementhelp.org/commskls/netiquet/netiquet.htm

FRK

 

[fkegan]

judging from your posts, my guess is you were on the side of the riot police...

He jests at scars who never felt a wound? [in consideration of your delicate situation I won't just cite the play act,scene and line]

You guess wrong again...but then that is consistent with your narcissistic personality problem.

Dr. Kegan

 

[fkegan]

hi lienshan, ok... let's assume for the sake of argument that king wen made a couple of changes in hexagram positions from an older sequence... why, then are the hexagrams placed in those particular positions in the older sequence?

is the only reason for that particular placement so that 9 of each trigram are included and hexagrams with fewer yang are placed before hexagrams with more yang? because i can think of many other sequences which would accomplish the same goal... so why that particular sequence?

bold added...

In the end, not a bad post, you are improving....

The bold part isn't so good. The older sequence ordered the hexagrams as a binary counter often in a circle where they marked out a sine wave...so one could say it was like current Western computer science and physics. Then King Wen made a major breakthrough that made that prior perspective obsolete in 1100 BCE.

Dr. Kegan :bows:

 

[getojack]

frank, i wasn't referring to the FuXi (binary) sequence... i was asking lienshan about this sequence...

(quoting lienshan):
Chapter 1: 02-01-03-05-07-09-11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-28-29-30
Chapter 2: 31-33-35-37-39-41-45-44-47-49-51-53-55-57-59-61-62-63

which is neither the KWS nor the FuXi (binary) sequence.

 

[hilary]

In case anyone's wondering where I am, I'm writing a pm.

 

[lienshan]

hi lienshan, ok... let's assume for the sake of argument that king wen made a couple of changes in hexagram positions from an older sequence... why, then are the hexagrams placed in those particular positions in the older sequence? is the only reason for that particular placement so that 9 of each trigram are included and hexagrams with fewer yang are placed before hexagrams with more yang?

I don't know. I'm very surprized, that this less or more "yang-lines" pattern indicate, that it was important to ancient shamans to count even and odd numbers of the hexagrams? Or did they count low and high numbers? Or did they count inside and outside numbers? 7 (1) and 6 are according to the distribution of the numbers known the most frequent, while 8 and esspecially 5 are more seldom.

I too think, that the positions of the complementary hexagrams were very important in the imagined older sequence: Only 2-1, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 are made neighbors! This would (if it was a rule) explain the order of the hexagrams 37-38-39-40:

2-1, 29-30 show the trigram-order Earth, Heaven, Water, Fire
33 to 40 show the trigram-disorder Heaven, Earth, Fire, Water
43 to 50 repeat the trigram-order Earth, Heaven, Water, Fire

And the complementary hexagrams of 43-50 look organized in chapter one (3-4, 21 to 26)

Sorry ... but I have at the moment more questions than answers

lienshan

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813#Anchor-comments

 

[fkegan]

One more indication of the theory, that the King Wen sequence is made by changing the positions of
Heaven and Earth 1 <=> 2 and 43-44 <=> 45-46 in an older sequence of 36 hexagrams in two chapters:

Chapter 1: 01-02-03-05-07-09-11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-28-29-30
Chapter 2: 31-33-35-37-39-41-43-45-47-49-51-53-55-57-59-61-62-63

The above "King Wen order" include 9 of each trigrams except 10 Lakes and 8 Winds ...

Chapter 1: 02-01-03-05-07-09-11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-28-29-30
Chapter 2: 31-33-35-37-39-41-45-44-47-49-51-53-55-57-59-61-62-63

The above "Older order" include 9 of each trigrams ... and each chapter is made of 9 "less and more" pairs.

That'll say, that the socalled "Lake-sequence" seems to be an King Wen invention, because 43-44 was turned upsidedown when it was placed before 45-46 in the King Wen sequence.

lienshan

Lienshan,
My apologies, I got distracted by something.

Where does the older order appear and why are those hexagrams that inverse by changing all their lines taken as so different from the others that inverse by being exchanged line place 1 to 6, 2 to 5..6 to 1?

In general, I have the most difficulty with this distinction in the odd/even pairs between these two ways to generate the even hexagram number to follow the odd one. You can't tumble the symmetrical ones and see the difference, so they have to be changed yang for yin. Why take this as two different inverse processes?

This older sequence would be, in sets of 10: 41,42,45,46,44,43,47,48,49,50 ? If I have your shorthand right...then...
In the Tetraktys matrix, that would be a change in only the positive polar opposite or dyad 42 and 45 which both have to do with public rituals and the narrative triad of 46,44,43 which would suggest a beginning in natural growth, a middle state of process cut free from its prior roots, and a final product of the powerful process of transition moving forward but not yet focusing upon the transition to the next. Which would be a nice ordering of the concepts.

The KWS focuses on the power of 43 as the positive dynamic of the overall set of human action to connect to the Divine. Then the triple narrative in current King Wen would be 44,45,46 beginning with the break from the prior roots, middle with the community gathering, and its final product the natural process of growth developing its new form or crop.

Interesting alternatives. Thank you.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Where does the older order appear and why are those hexagrams that inverse by changing all their lines taken as so different from the others that inverse by being exchanged line place 1 to 6, 2 to 5..6 to 1?

In general, I have the most difficulty with this distinction in the odd/even pairs between these two ways to generate the even hexagram number to follow the odd one. You can't tumble the symmetrical ones and see the difference, so they have to be changed yang for yin. Why take this as two different inverse processes?

The older order is a thought-experiment. Richard Wilhelm name it Kuei Ts'ang with hexagram Earth first in the sequence. The basic structure of the imagined older sequence is described here:

http://biroco.com/yijing/scan.htm (Note 2 at the bottom of the article)

The primary hexagrams 2-1, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 are arranged as complementary pairs like neighbors in a less and more yang-line pattern. The other 56 hexagrams are represented by only 28 hexagrams, that look different when turned upside down, too in a less and more yang-line pattern but by purpose not made neighbors if complementary. This last rule is obvious in the sequences 37 to 40 and 51 to 60

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

The older order is a thought-experiment. Richard Wilhelm name it Kuei Ts'ang with hexagram Earth first in the sequence. The basic structure of the imagined older sequence is described here:

http://biroco.com/yijing/scan.htm (Note 2 at the bottom of the article)

The primary hexagrams 2-1, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62 are arranged as complementary pairs like neighbors in a less and more yang-line pattern. The other 56 hexagrams are represented by only 28 hexagrams, that look different when turned upside down, too in a less and more yang-line pattern but by purpose not made neighbors if complementary. This last rule is obvious in the sequences 37 to 40 and 51 to 60

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,

OK, I see the perspective. Not clear to me why the lines are so much more important than the hexagrams... but that is a personal choice. I realized I haven't been explaining my perspective very well. It starts by seeing the Yi as sets of 10 hexagrams. Which explains why the first half is 30 hexagrams by the importance of 3 sets Earth, humans, Heaven in Chinese philosophy. The second half has 34 since it has to include all 64 hexagrams, though it too is 3 sets of 10 and the extras.

In terms of the sets of 10, I wondered why Scott Davies didn't come to a further explanation of the KWS within his sets of 10. Then it hit me...10 = 1+2+3+4 is the traditional academic statement of Pythagorean Tetraktys which most folks have no reason to associate to Chinese philosophy. However, it is simply an alternative to seeing the hexagrams in pairs, even though their line structure is clearly paired. But their meaning as entire hexagrams is not.

The meaning has one hexagram to express the whole set. Then a pair by structure and energy which ends in 2 and 3. Then a set of three..beginning, middle and final product, hex numbers ending in 4,5,6. And finally two pairs which are related to each other as the axes of a Cartesian grid, hexagrams 7 and 8 describing vertical structure and energy while hexagrams ending in 9 and 0 describe maximum intensity to final quiescence, like a horizontal time line.

Its an alternative to the Yang line/Yin line count or the trigram content or the hexagram structure pairs...

Frank

 

[sergio]

Interesting Thoughts On The Sequence By Denis Mair

Hello y'all;
I thought it would be interesting to everybody involved in this thread to check
what Denis Mair had posted in his website regarding the sequence.He also co wrote a paper about a rearrangement of the sequence,something also discussed by Lama Anagarika Govinda.
http://www.appositive.net/oysterbay/iching/sequence.html
Sergio

 

[fkegan]

Flexibility in the King Wen Sequence?

Hello y'all;
I thought it would be interesting to everybody involved in this thread to check
what Denis Mair had posted in his website regarding the sequence.He also co wrote a paper about a rearrangement of the sequence,something also discussed by Lama Anagarika Govinda.
http://www.appositive.net/oysterbay/iching/sequence.html
Sergio

Hi Sergio,
Your citation of Denis Mair is a good example of the perspective that the KWS is mostly about binary numbers: in lines or binary classified trigrams with the names and meanings of the hexagrams only a minor part of it all. However all number systems, binary or decimal are just part of a larger system or matrix that gives meaning to the ordered place values. And of course, all numbers are symbolic with what the concrete entities and realities are they are counting not included in the numbering digits.

Chinese digits seem to have clearly number theory or Pythagorean etymology, not by direct transmission, but the same universal number properties being symbolized.The first three numbers represent the fundamental counting built into our species and a range of others. The even numbers all have indications they are even, that is they split equally into two parts. That leaves 5,7, and 9 of the first ten to puzzle over their ideograms...

BTW, I suspect the image of the world as sitting on a turtle's back is universal since it is what makes sense knowing the horizon where you live curves downward, but the notion of there being folks living upside down in the antipodes and the whole Planet Earth floating or spinning in space is just too far beyond concrete experience.

Y'all come back next time,

Frank

 

[sergio]

Hello Dr.Kegan:
I think the "binary approach"is only a fraction of Mr.Mair's expositition.One of the reasons why I posted the link was that I found many similarities with your work.I have to point out first that I really like your explanation of the sequence but also your take on the nuclear hexagrams to wich you alude in on of your exchanges with Hilary.Coming back to Denis Mair he also cowote a paper regarding a reordering of the hexagrams-the argument been that some of the hexagrams are misplaced in the sequence.Are you aware of any of this theories?Anyway,here is yet another explanation of the KWS this time by the inefable Chris Lofting:
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/cracked.html
Thanks for sharing your work with us and also for having the patience to explain it and discuss it .
Sergio

 

[fkegan]

Hello Dr.Kegan:
I think the "binary approach"is only a fraction of Mr.Mair's expositition.One of the reasons why I posted the link was that I found many similarities with your work.I have to point out first that I really like your explanation of the sequence but also your take on the nuclear hexagrams to wich you alude in on of your exchanges with Hilary.Coming back to Denis Mair he also cowote a paper regarding a reordering of the hexagrams-the argument been that some of the hexagrams are misplaced in the sequence.Are you aware of any of this theories?Anyway,here is yet another explanation of the KWS this time by the inefable Chris Lofting:
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/cracked.html
Thanks for sharing your work with us and also for having the patience to explain it and discuss it .
Sergio

Hi Sergio,
Thank you for your appreciation. The development of the oracle hexagram from the heart line pair(corner hexagram 1,2,83,84) interacting with the will line pair to form the nuclear and that then interacting with the 1st and 6th lines to show how the current hexagram arose from within arises from just taking the line places and Yang lines in open matrix and working out all the details.

I would like to ask you a favor---I have looked at these various links from you and Luis and I don't see their theories at all. I just see more of the hexagrams in pairs and the binary equals of Yang and Yin and a whole lot of columns of numbers, lines, trigrams, etc. I can see a lot of stuff on each of these sites, but not any clear theory. Can you state at all what their theory is in terms of this question: The KWS is explained for the hexagrams 1-30, 31-64 like this?

How do you relate their theory to my work? I have tried, but I can't see it. My explanation of the KWS is: The hexagrams are arranged in sets of 10, three sets in the first half, the others in the second half. Each set of 10 is composed of a single hexagram sequence number x1 which is the Monad describing the process of the whole set. Then the hexagrams numbered x2 and x3 are a Dyad, polar opposites, negative as structure, positive as energy. Then a process narrative of hex x4 a beginning situation, hex x5 the middle active process, and hex x6 the final product. Then the final four of each set of 10, a double dichotomy with hex x7 as vertical structure negative polar opposite and x8 active polar opposite, and finally the horizontal, energy polar opposites with hex x9 as maximum intensity and hex x0 as the final quiescent state so that you have a set that begins in hex x1 and ends in hex x0 (10). The final four are arranged by their overall pattern, inside, outside, completing, starting.. so the set is ready to begin anew.

So, what is there's? Do they have it on some other page or am I just not seeing it?

Thank you,
Frank.

 

[sergio]

Hello Frank;
your work is indeed very distinct and of a very different approach as compare to others.However IMHO,there are certain similarities for example in Mair's case he presents the sequence as a textual sequence describing the process of creation from chaos to social order and relationships .The interaction of the elements with natural processes are used both to describe naturalphenomenaand,metaphorically,human relationships in a continuos interplay until they reach balance and start allover again.Up to this point the emphasis is mostly in textual interpretation and meaning.Structurally Mair-as everybody else-relies on the obvious binary analysis ,the different configurations of yin and yang,the play of opposites and inversions of the hexagrams and to a greater extent in the interaction of the trigrams and their simmetric distribution in the sequence ,a fact that is tied to the meaning attached to each hexagram based precisely on that interplay of forces which determine their ultimate significance within the whole sequence.That,in a nutshell,is what I see as a simmilarity with your work but obviously you are able to present a cohesive and comprehensive explanation that certainly leaves no holes.Somehow I sense that you feel a bit defensive about the fact that similarities are spotted by other persons in your work and from my part I just wanted to pointed it out not as a way of diminishing your work but as a way of showing how you develop those points into a more cohesive explanation.I don't want to be negative or confrontational and apologize if that was what transpire in my messages.Now Chris Lofting's explanation is quite interesting at times but I cannot wholly integrate it into my daily experience-an array of dichotomies and semyotic quandaries quite detached from natural processes,IMHO.and not connected to you in any way.Just another side of the story.We learn by understanding and accepting but also by understanding and disagreeing.(thesis -antithesis-sinthesis)Anyway,this is the best I can do at this very moment of the night and I know that trying to explain such a vast topic in just a few words reminds me of that Woody Allen joke where he says to a friend that he took a course of speed reading and was able to read "War and Peace" in ten minutes.So his friend ask him-'what is the book about?" to what he replies-"it happens in Russia."
Sergio

 

[fkegan]

My work in Yi studies and the KWS...placing marker on the mountain top...

Thank you Sergio, I appreciate your taking the time to explain what you meant, It means a lot to me. :bows:

I wasn't being defensive, I hope. I certainly didn't wish to make you feel attacked or unappreciated.

I just wondered why when I look at this other work I see the same old binary mentality and others see much the same as mine. To me there is a quantum leap between details of line values and trigrams all less than total hexagram meaning...and the integration of hexagram names as the units in a system that develops an overall meaningful number matrix that builds on the whole hexagram to an extent that inspires awe and wonder.

I was amazed in Scott Davies work that he clearly has such expertize in the hexagrams in sets of 10, but gets no further than all the rest. I wondered how could he avoid seeing the same things I do, that the sets of 10 have an overall shared meaning.

That brought me to realize that the sense of dividing 10 up into 1+2+3+4 is not obvious, especially when they are arranged clearly into 5 pairs. I associate those pairs with tumbling dice cubes, there are 12 line places like there are 12 dice faces in normal gaming. I keep associating the pairing to a poem's rhyme scheme, but then there are still entire English departments that reduce the total meaning of a poem to its rhyme scheme viewed in microscopic detail. I remember my big sister remarking about that decades ago.

Folks have sought a clear explanation to the King Wen Sequence (KWS) for a long time, and I have it published here and on my website. Q.E.D.
Me and Euclid both following in the footsteps of Pythagoras.

It is my plaque atop Mt. Everest so I can buckle down to releasing all my academic Ego trips, saying it is all simple ideas for school children working learning their basics just we don't quite have elementary education reorganized to be more important than Ph.D. studies. Kids are the future, graduate students are trying to follow their professors (hex 10).

Similar work to mine would at least be based in the sets of 10 as the fundamental unit of meaningful analysis, and the alignment of the meanings of the hexagrams (their names) to their sequence numbers. As in any great primary work, the KWS could and should have many such explanations possible from various perspectives.

If others are doing similar work--- really truly, to me they need a complete coherent explanation of the KWS as it is currently known. These other folks seem to all be working from just basic notes at the level of saying, "I can feel this sequence isn't random, but I haven't the faintest idea what it is, but here are my notes and ruminations though I can't bring them to any point, conclusion or clear expression."

I hope I am reacting only to two points:

1) everyone else I see working in these things is writing a vast amount of words that do not quite manage to explain the KWS --even suggesting that some of the hexagrams should be changed in their order to better achieve the right details of yin/yang counting.

2) They are all hung up in the obvious detail that the KWS is organized into 32 pairs next to each other, and assume that must somehow be part of the explanation of the sequence order. That would make the KWS just a variant of the ancient use of the hexagrams as a binary counter. Still just a counter, but now counting tumbled pairs rather than individual numbers.

In general, I see my work as giving an alternative to traditional Chinese Yi studies based in Chinese texts and tomb artifacts. My work allows all that scholarship but put is all in a universal context (Tao) where the hexagram meanings can be derived from just the line places and the rules of the gua matrix (as a peg board, thank you, Luis) within which the Yang lines are placed to create gestalt images and overall meaning. Just that is enough to derive everything else in Yi studies except the arguments over the purity of the text transcription which in my perspective become less important.

The connection of the KWS to the Pythagorean Tetraktys, which was also unknown except for fragments of an oath extolling the wonders and awe of the equation 10= 1+2+3+4 until I was able to associate it to the patterns on the dice cube, is the heart of my Stars-n-dice insight. That for my is my demonstration of achievement as a Neo-Pythagorean initiate under the Uranus not Saturn rulership that seeks to share for possible benefit, not hide in fear of misuse by the unworthy.

I assume all my work is just an artifact of its being a new century, millennium, and Great Age, and I happen to have been in a peculiar position over the last 40 years that I was open to what will be soon obvious to all elementary school children while I lived deep in the heart of the final century of the Modern (20th century) which was still reeling with the Medieval.

But it is by discussion that things go from being stuck in one's head due to resistance for too many decades to being explicitly stated in words others can hopefully understand, use and improve upon.

Clearly that takes more than a single statement, And, again, I thank you for both going into an explanation of your remarks and giving me the opportunity to respond with my own clearer statement of my stuff (open Yin space around your post that drew forth my Yang focused statement of my work).

Frank :bows::bows:

 

[denis_m]

Thanks to Sergio

...I think the "binary approach"is only a fraction of Mr.Mair's expositition.One of the reasons why I posted the link was that I found many similarities with your work.I have to point out first that I really like your explanation of the sequence but also your take on the nuclear hexagrams to wich you alude in on of your exchanges with Hilary.Coming back to Denis Mair he also cowote a paper regarding a reordering of the hexagrams-...

You have my gratitude for mentioning my articles. Actually, the article titled "A Reordering of the Hexagrams of the I Ching" was co-written by my brother Victor Mair and Stephen McKenna. It appeared in Philosophy East and West, Oct. 1979.
I admit, it's a little strange--two pairs of brothers, both of whom have an interest in the problem of hexagram order. I think my brother Victor's interest in the subject was glancing, though. (Mine seems persistent.) Also, my brother and I have not gone adventuring along the Amazon.

I use a dance between Qian and Kun as a background metaphor in some articles, but I don't apply it rigorously. I can't hold it all in my mind right now, and I feel like the only way to understand is to feel my way.
I felt excited when I noticed that the sequence portrays rhythmic excitement around #11-#12, which is the site of Qian and Kun's wedding and/or relationship failure. I have an article about that on my site.
I believe that the structure of the Yi is based on fertility symbolism. The symbolic armature represents an intertwining which produces the myriad situations of life. The idea of passion for life is built into this system. This is a world view in which each fiber of a living thing’s being—however far down one goes—exists in a relation of passion with other parts. (If the relation is not passion, it is at least an intense give and take.) I believe this feeling goes all the way down and "all the way up." Why? Even in the wording of many line statements, there is an interplay of contraries. For instance, #11.3and #11.6. On a macrocosmic scale, the interplay of contraries is represented by hexagrams #1 and #2. To find a similar feature within single lines suggests that the symbolic structure is holographic, and that certain features can be extended indefinitely along a vector of greater or lesser graininess.

Recently I've been thinking about portrayals of Fu Xi and Nu Wa. They are portrayed in murals as half-serpent beings with their tails wound together. Many pictures show them with their tails wound together three times. That makes sense to me, because #1Qian and #2 Kun only need to exchange lines three times to produce all the hexagrams. Also, the eight trigrams are built up from a single yin or yang line in three steps.
My friend Diana Wong thinks that Nu Wa is the co-creator of the hexagrams. You can see some of her art at this site: www.dianawong.com/install_labahm01.htm

I have not been able to delve into the KWS lately, because of work and health issues. I look forward to studying things that have appeared on this thread. There is some great imagery being put to work to investigate the sequence. Images growing from images--that's as it should be with the Yijing.
I am excited by Hilary's discovery of the nuclear trigram rhythm. There has to be something there. To me it speaks of a field that underlies individual manifestations, a field with gentle waves running through it that we can't always feel. I tend to be curmedgeonly toward nuclear trigrams because they have led to such a confusing thicket of associations. And one traditional skeptic said "a four-line figure is not a hexagram." But the nuclear hexagrams are additional evidence that KWS has multilevel patterns.

I was also glad to see Starhawk's post in the "56.5 thread" showing that 亡 ("disappears") shows up mostly in the Second Half. The King Wen Sequence must have been in the minds of people who composed the lines. I have also noticed that the word 孚 ("sincerity/good faith") appears exactly twice as many times in the Second Half as in the First Half.
I have also noticed that more line statements in the Second Half have to do with private experience in general--people in tricky/sticky situations, people getting lost, people losing sight of themselves, losing sight of other people, nursing private wishes, misperceiving things. It's intriguing. Could it be that the system has more open possibilty near the initial creative stage (in Part One)? Perhaps as the system gets filled in, the roads of life become narrower. Could it be that experience becomes more fraught with ambiguity as it accumulates? Is it because we need more heart to heart understanding as we advance along life's path? In some sense, the forking paths seem more bewildering in the Second Half. Hexagrams like #38 and #55 and #62 have a "ring" about them that you just won't find in the First Half.
The problem of the sequence is rich but elusive. I like what Hilary said, about the small swatches of the sequence being what intrigues her. It seems to add something to the background of an interpretation. I like to think of #26, a person who has accumulated a great deal of knowledge about the deeds and sayings of the past. "In the belly of a statesman you can put a whole ship," as the saying goes. What does this knowledgable man see when he turns around and looks at history? He sees the moribund regimes that crumbled. He sees the chance of renewal, the planting of seeds from the "great fruit that was not eaten." He also sees the impulsive attempts that seem so right at the moment (#25) that the very heavens seem to smile on them, but he knows that many of them will prove ephemeral. Whoever wrote the Image Treatise here seemed to take a cue from the preceding hexagrams. The shifts are cinematic in the sequence. We don't criticize movies for these kind of transitions, yet the KWS is faulted for scatteredness. We should praise its cinematic quality for being ahead of its time. To me, the "going in to relax and breathe" in #17 is a fitting sequel to the rousing music of #16.
Thanks again to anyone who looked at my articles.

Denis M.

 

[lienshan]

Thanks again to anyone who looked at my articles.

I looked at your site and then my PC chrashed uch:

I have now bought a new PC to be able to thank you for posting your ideas of the King Wen sequence.
I like your point of view and find your approach to the subject very inspiring. Have you ever looked at
the 4 pairs, that are complementary when turned upside down?

11 !!! 12 !!!
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!:
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!!
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

I find it interesting, that the oddnumbered and the evennumbered hexagrams consist of the 8 trigrams.

lienshan

 

[hilary]

Denis, that's one of my favourite posts, ever. Thank you. :bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Great post, indeed, Dennis.

Here is a picture of Fuxi and Nuwa:

Regarding your friend, Diana Wong, I loved her paintings of I Ching labyrinths. Do you know where she got the idea of the Yi Labyrinth? She mentions a diagram she found in an old book, do you know which diagram is that? I ask, because other than inside my own head, and my hand-notes, I hadn't seen a Yi inspired labyrinth before. Actually, there are some very interesting ones in the KWS and the Mawuangdui. Mrs. Wong has some very compelling and interesting paintings although the depicted labyrinths are different from mine.

Cheers,

 

[lienshan]

1) everyone else I see working in these things is writing a vast amount of words that do not quite manage to explain the KWS --even suggesting that some of the hexagrams should be changed in their order to better achieve the right details of yin/yang counting.

Or put in other words --even suggesting that some of the hexagrams should be changed back in the older order to better see the difference in details between the two sequences.

I'm at the moment searching for WHY the odd-numbered hexagrams of the 32 pairs are placed before the evennumbered hexagrams? My starting point is the theory, that King Wen changed the positions of Earth and Heaven to establish the new order 1 Heaven-2 Earth-29 Water-30 Fire which was too established in chapter two by placing the pair 43-44 reversed before the pair 45-46 in the socalled "Lake-sequence". That he did so is indicated by the study of this special group of four complementary pairs:

11 !!! 12 !!!
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: The group of four odd-numbered hexagrams is made of the eight trigrams
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!! The group of four odd-numbered hexagrams is made of the eight trigrams
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

11+63 = Earth-Heaven-Water-Fire = older trigram order of sequence 43 to 50
17+53 = natural (Lake above Thunder and Wind above Mountain)
12+64 = Heaven-Earth-Fire-Water = older trigram disorder of sequence 33 to 40
18+54 = unnatural (Mountain above Wind and Thunder above Lake)

The order of the odd-numbered hexagrams are similar to the older trigram order of sequence 43 to 50, and before these is the natural pair 41-42 (Mountain above Lake and Wind above Thunder)

The order of the even-numbered hexagrams are similar to the older trigram order of sequence 33 to 40, and before these is the unnatural pair 31-32 (Lake above Mountain and Thunder above Wind)

And the pairs 31-32 and 41-42 are complementary pairs.

lienshan

 

[sergio]

Hello everybody!
DENNIS:My apologies for the confusion re:your brother-I feel really embarrased but I meant well....No need to thanks me for quoting your articles-their value speak for themselves.If anything,we should all thank you for sharing your insights with all of us.We sometimes put "a message in a bottle and through to the sea"hoping that somebody,somewhere will pick it up and read it. I am only the 'mailman",nothng more.Hope you get well soon and keep those articles coming.WE NEED THEM!.
Dr.Kegan:thank you too for sharing your insights and for entertaining my explanations,I
did as best as I could and obviously not as elocuently as you.I agree with you when you say you have placed your marking(and flag,too)on top of Yi chingverest.That would be the standard for future "expeditioners"to match.
Time to go again!
Sergio

 

[fkegan]

Hello everybody!
DENNIS:My apologies for the confusion re:your brother-I feel really embarrased but I meant well....No need to thanks me for quoting your articles-their value speak for themselves.If anything,we should all thank you for sharing your insights with all of us.We sometimes put "a message in a bottle and through to the sea"hoping that somebody,somewhere will pick it up and read it. I am only the 'mailman",nothng more.Hope you get well soon and keep those articles coming.WE NEED THEM!.
Dr.Kegan:thank you too for sharing your insights and for entertaining my explanations,I
did as best as I could and obviously not as elocuently as you.I agree with you when you say you have placed your marking(and flag,too)on top of Yi chingverest.That would be the standard for future "expeditioners"to match.
Time to go again!
Sergio

Hi Sergio,
:bows:

Hi Lienshan,

I'm at the moment searching for WHY the odd-numbered hexagrams of the 32 pairs are placed before the even numbered hexagrams?

For me, the odd numbered hex have to be in front of the even, they have a lower sequence number and the even number is the prior odd tumbled or inversed. The open question is why the odd numbered hexagram patterns are where they are in the sets of 10.
Frank

 

[lienshan]

The open question is why the odd numbered hexagram patterns are where they are in the sets of 10.

I'm not sure, that I understand your open question correct?

A way to explore the question is to divide the King Wen sequence into an important and an unimportant part? The last is maybe these smaller complementary sequences:

07 :!: 08 :!:
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!!
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!!
15 !:: 16 ::!
51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !::
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !::
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!!
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!!

The pairs 9-10 and 15-16 differ in the way they are complementary ... why?

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

I'm not sure, that I understand your open question correct?

A way to explore the question is to divide the King Wen sequence into an important and an unimportant part? The last is maybe these smaller complementary sequences:

07 :!: 08 :!:
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!!
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!!
15 !:: 16 ::!
51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !::
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !::
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!!
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!!

The pairs 9-10 and 15-16 differ in the way they are complementary ... why?

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,
Isn't 10 the tumbled version of 9? and 16 the same tumbled version, 6th line now 1st of 15?

All the even hexagrams have the lines of the WHOLE hexagram determined by the prior odd hexagram and the trigrams fall as they must when turned on their heads with the rest of the ENTIRE hexagram before them.

My question is why are 11, 13,15,17,19 together as a set--which I answer because 11 describes the abstract energy process, sunshine within the Earth, 12 and 13 are a pair by MEANING without any line place or trigram connection, 14,15,16 are a set of three, and 17 and 18, as well as 19 and 20 are related pairs by meaning...

And the meaning of the whole hexagram is shown in the imagery of the trigrams OR in the relationship of Yang lines to line places 1-6 and to open Yin spaces...

With the result that the trigram structures fall almost into any order one might imagine...almost but not quite since that wasn't much of any part of the ordering. The King Wen Sequence is ordered, not somewhat, not almost, but absolutely, positively and in detail for every hexagram of the universe of 64 possible patterns of two kinds of lines in a 6 place matrix.

Frank