Sequence of the Hexagrams

[seethis]

I think Rosada has a point to list them all. This is a logical thing to do in order to look at it and see that there is much sense in this order by Wilhelm. It is a kind of logic of mental states, one following out of the other. Because they have to be limited (64) they are of course not perfect. By the way most hexagrams also invert, which highlights that mental states often change to the contrary. Makes sense to me. It is simply a logic based on real life experience of mental states and how they tend to change. In my opinion it doesn't matter that much since it is the changing lines which bring about a recommendation of what might be at stake in a particular life situation. What matters is the syncronicity factor, related to meaning and the wishful thinking behind any desired meaning. The book counteracts wishful thinking in the context of synchronicity, hoping that there is a causual link between changing lines. Depending on the circumstances one thing could mean something completely different to someone else. The sequences and the lines are trying to be logical, a kind of a limited universe in an ever changing world in order to capture meaning in difficult life situations and to use this as a guide for further meaning and not as a prediction of what is going to happen.

 

[bradford]

The human mind is equipped to make sense out of just about anything, whether meaning inheres there or not. This is how tea leaves and crystal balls work. The phenomenon is called Pareidolia. The hexagrrams could be arranged in any sequence whatsoever and people would be able to tell a meaningful story from it. Structurally, the sequence that makes the most sense is the Xian Tian, not invented or discovered until the 11th century. The Hou Tian and the sequence of the Mawangdui mss make little sense by comparison. I think the Tarot readers have the best approach - you shuffle the deck and read the sequence that fits the time you're asking about, but unless you're studying the overall system as a system, you don't take the original card sequence seriously.

 

[pocossin]

The phenomenon is called Pareidolia.

The phenomenon is called pareidolia by some. Unfortunately pareidolia is a loaded term with a negative value judgment. "Pattern recognition" and "gestalt" are more neutral terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

http://www.skepdic.com/pareidol.html

 

[bradford]

The phenomenon is called pareidolia by some. Unfortunately pareidolia is a loaded term with a negative value judgment. "Pattern recognition" and "gestalt" are more neutral terms.

And sometimes seeing too much order where none is there can be called paranoia.

 

[pocossin]

And sometimes seeing too much order where none is there can be called paranoia.

And sometimes seeing too little order where some is there can be called anoia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_gods#Anoia

 

[rosada]

In my efforts to memorize the I Ching I've certainly relied heavily on the benefits of memorizing them in a particular order. It's much easier that way. Imagine trying to memorize all the letters in the alphabet without having them in alphabetical order! The hexagrams do seem to tell a story when you line them up 1 through 64:
Day followed by
Night at first seemed like
Chaos till
The Fool learned to
Wait and not create
Conflict etc.

I suppose as Brad suggests one could create equally compelling naratives from any other sequence although I suspect the one handed down to us may have gained it's reputation because it was particularly fluid. But I don't know, I still haven't worked out the whole plot line of just this one. Perhaps that would be a worthy project to investigate. Sort of like plotting out the whole DNA of the I Ching. Write out all the sequences possible with the 64 hexagrams and explain why each one is valid. How many would there be? 32 x 31 = 992?
-Rosada

 

[pocossin]

Write out all the sequences possible with the 64 hexagrams and explain why each one is valid. How many would there be? 32 x 31 = 992?

A somewhat larger number There are 64 factorial (written "64!") possible sequences of 64 distinct objects.

64! = 1.26886932 × 10^89

-- perhaps more than grains of sand on a very large seashore.

If you learn the hexagrams as the hexagram pictures that King Wen saw, then you'll know every yin and yang line of every hexagram automatically just as your know the stars if you know the constellations. When caught in lines and waiting room, I improve the time by running through the hexagrams in my mind.

 

[rosada]

Hmm.. Sounds like one of your puzzels. What hexagram line reminds us of grains of sand and is useful to think about while Waiting?

Meanwhile, I was thinking 32 rather than 64 because there does seem to be agreement that the hexagrams should be considered in pairs. What would 32! be?

Yes, reviewing the lines while standing in a line is a great use of the time! You can also do that to put yourself to sleep faster than counting sheep. I think it's interesting to note how far you get before you drift off - like is there some significance to why you can't stay focused once you reach a certain line?
Rosada

 

[pocossin]

What hexagram line reminds us of grains of sand and is useful to think about while Waiting?

5.2 Waiting on the sand. Hexagram pictures don't help much with the text, I admit.

What would 32! be?

Google Calculator tells me it's 2.63130837 × 10^35. That's much bigger than the national debt.

is there some significance to why you can't stay focused once you reach a certain line?

Yes, it's a moving line and you need to refocus. I think you have discovered a new way to cast a hexagram!

 

[ravenstar]

Waiting.....I would agree with Hexagram 5.....it offers great advice when we are discouraged, impatient and going through a difficult time. Waiting can be like a state of depression, just like land after a prolonged drought, waiting for the rain to come, to bring life back to the wasteland.

Synchronistic events lead us to an awareness that is far greater than ourselves, a feeling of not only being connected to this energy but to others, the outside, to something within, inside.....it creates a sense of awe...chills running up the spine. There is a flow around us....things just seem to happen!

On one hand memorizing the i ching, from 1-64 provides us with symbols, tools to help bring about our own individual change....this is seen by an inner pattern' reflected/mirrored on the outside. Indeed in a form of a puzzle. Puzzles can be (for me) extremely stressful.....so many repetitive pieces with the same theme repeating themselves over and over in different settings....creating an inner and outer psychological conflict until suddenty we get the message.

The I Ching certainly does seem to resonate with emotionally focused questions. But to understand and decipher its meaning, we need some understanding of its symbolism...our perception and decision would then be based on intuition and logic...an eclipse of the left and right brain?

ravenstar

 

[sooo]

The I Ching certainly does seem to resonate with emotionally focused questions. But to understand and decipher its meaning, we need some understanding of its symbolism...our perception and decision would then be based on intuition and logic...an eclipse of the left and right brain?

Nice picture. I wouldn't have thought of the word 'eclipse', but it's interesting. Care to elaborate?

 

[ravenstar]

I'll try to explain in as few words as possible LOL!

When we ask an emotionally based question, seeking the truth in a situation, we experience a release of energies as well as our own limitations and perceptions. New powers are then awakened, raising the forces of body up when then merge with higher creative powers allowing a whole new current to sweep through the entire body.

The human brain has a quite a resemblance to a human, androgynous embryo. The pituitary gland holds the positive, masculine charge and the pineal holds a negative, feminine charge. When these masculine and feminine energies meet in the brain they form an Eclipse or in another term, Mystical Marriage. This eclipse initiates the birth of our multi faceted consciousness and our conscious passage into the superconsciousness and beyond.

The Pineal Gland when stimulated stands upright, allowing the brain to blend with the higher intelligence in man.

The rising Kundalini pulls the energy up from Mother Earth through the nerve channels, into the medulla oblongata, through the pons area of the brain and then down into the pituitary gland behind the eyes. The increasing pituitary radiations then pass through the third ventricle to awaken the pineal gland which has received light from the higher dimensions. The feminine earth energy merges with the masculine pituitary gland and the feminine pineal gland receives the masculine unmanifest energy from Spirit. When the two awakened chakras’ essences meet in the third ventricle, there is the union and harmony of spirit into matter as the multidimensional forces of spiritual light merge with the matter of our third dimensional brain.

When we look at the yin yang symbol, it looks separate and motionless. In reality, these two symbols are constantly spinning. When we actually intertwine them and amplify them, they spin so quickly the image of the yin yang symbol seems to have disappeared.

Does that answer your question?

ravenstar

 

[Tohpol]

I'll try to explain in as few words as possible LOL!

When we ask an emotionally based question, seeking the truth in a situation, we experience a release of energies as well as our own limitations and perceptions. New powers are then awakened, raising the forces of body up when then merge with higher creative powers allowing a whole new current to sweep through the entire body.

The human brain has a quite a resemblance to a human, androgynous embryo. The pituitary gland holds the positive, masculine charge and the pineal holds a negative, feminine charge. When these masculine and feminine energies meet in the brain they form an Eclipse or in another term, Mystical Marriage. This eclipse initiates the birth of our multi faceted consciousness and our conscious passage into the superconsciousness and beyond.

The Pineal Gland when stimulated stands upright, allowing the brain to blend with the higher intelligence in man.

The rising Kundalini pulls the energy up from Mother Earth through the nerve channels, into the medulla oblongata, through the pons area of the brain and then down into the pituitary gland behind the eyes. The increasing pituitary radiations then pass through the third ventricle to awaken the pineal gland which has received light from the higher dimensions. The feminine earth energy merges with the masculine pituitary gland and the feminine pineal gland receives the masculine unmanifest energy from Spirit. When the two awakened chakras’ essences meet in the third ventricle, there is the union and harmony of spirit into matter as the multidimensional forces of spiritual light merge with the matter of our third dimensional brain.

When we look at the yin yang symbol, it looks separate and motionless. In reality, these two symbols are constantly spinning. When we actually intertwine them and amplify them, they spin so quickly the image of the yin yang symbol seems to have disappeared.

Does that answer your question?

ravenstar

All of your post is really interesting but there seems to be an awful lot of supposition in there. In other words, I probably agree with most of the above at an intuitive level but I can't claim that this is what REALLY happens. I don't know. Do you know that these processes happen for certain or is it just the relaying of esoteric theory of what we think MAY or COULD happen? I guess I'm always a bit uncomfortable with what appear to be absolutes in a realm that is so subjective and without any way of knowing for sure. For example, have you experienced the symptoms of the process you've alluded to and then attached possibilities to that end? Or is it a "known" for you and others you know?

Topal

 

[sooo]

Does that answer your question?

I appreciate that you took the time to elaborate. Topal echoes my own questions. I'm not saying it isn't fact, but I question how factual these interesting possibilities are and how much is still theoretical. Even the fairly well accepted concept of chakras, is it something which science can substantiate, or does it stand on it's own theoretical (ancient) idea and model?

When I read your initial post, a spinning yin/yang is precisely what came to mind, and I've long perceived the dance of left and right brain to be involved with the intuitive process. Hence my genuine interest in this.

What I didn't, and still don't understand is how one eclipses the other. I perceive to be more of a communication and interaction, and I don't see how one covers or obscures the other - except for one idea, that whatever shows, or is active, temporarily obscures its opposite. I wondered if that's what you meant by eclipse.

For example, I can not speak and not speak simultaneously. Or, to make it specific to this topic, I can not intuit and reason simultaneously. The ball can be bounced back and forth: intuit/reason/intuit/reason etc. And I perceive that process happens extremely fast, which is experienced as instantaneous insight.

 

[sooo]

I think...

I can not intuit and reason simultaneously.
Only through an exchange of friendly fire
can one come to know the other.

Also, the word intuit could be replaced with seeking. So it could conceivably look like: seek/reason/seek/reason etc. That which has already been sought repeatedly, develops a bias (an intuitive bent), which can solidify at least the likeliness of the answer.

 

[rosada]

Reason/Intuition and the friendly fire battle. Is this what 2.6 refers to?

 

[sooo]

Reason/Intuition and the friendly fire battle. Is this what 2.6 refers to?

It isn't what I'd intended, as 2.6 isn't friendly. You added the word "battle".

I was referring to neurological firing, the trade off of information through electrical impulses from left and right brain.

According to Grey's Anatomy, your brain controls and coordinates all function in the body. When functioning normally, the cerebellum, which is the back bottom part of your cranium, sends messages or "fires" to the brains right and left hemisphere which in turn "fires" to the brain stem (mesencephalon, pons and medulla). We refer to this as your "Brain Loop".

Med Alliance
DR. KEN HOWARD
Functional Neurology

 

[ravenstar]

All of your post is really interesting but there seems to be an awful lot of supposition in there. In other words, I probably agree with most of the above at an intuitive level but I can't claim that this is what REALLY happens. I don't know. Do you know that these processes happen for certain or is it just the relaying of esoteric theory of what we think MAY or COULD happen? I guess I'm always a bit uncomfortable with what appear to be absolutes in a realm that is so subjective and without any way of knowing for sure. For example, have you experienced the symptoms of the process you've alluded to and then attached possibilities to that end? Or is it a "known" for you and others you know?

Topal

Hi topal,

The pituitary and pineal glands are an absolute. Here are a couple of sites to look at...
http://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/extra.html
http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/Provings/AyahuascaPinealgland.htm

And yes, when I have asked an emotionally based question and the I Ching, Tarot, Sabian Symbols release an answer that is felt intuitively correct, I have felt that rush, I have felt all limitations and perceptions just vaporize in mid-year. And I also know I'm not the only one that has felt this.....many people I've spoken to and know have gone through it.

What I didn't, and still don't understand is how one eclipses the other. I perceive to be more of a communication and interaction, and I don't see how one covers or obscures the other - except for one idea, that whatever shows, or is active, temporarily obscures its opposite. I wondered if that's what you meant by eclipse.

In a way yes.....but doesn't obscure...the left brain, right brain, work as ONE.

ravenstar

 

[sooo]

cont'..

What's The Deal With The Mesensephalon?

The mesencephalon (a.k.a. upper brain stem, a.k.a. midbrain, a.k.a. cerebral peduncle) normally is inhibited by the brain. In other words, when the “brain loop” is intact, the mesencephalon is turned off (or on low).

However, once stress interrupts the “brain loop”, the mesencephalon is left unchecked. Basically, the brain gets stuck in a sympathetic (fight or flight) response.

A mesencephalon that is not firing properly causes symptoms such as fibromyalgia, ADD, sciatica, etc.

www.medallianceonline.com See Functional Neurology tab. It is advertising, but well done and informative.

 

[sooo]

In a way yes.....but doesn't obscure...the left brain, right brain, work as ONE.

ahh, ok. So, eclipse is a polarization of opposites?

But, mono-polar is no pole = dead, or possibly, non being, non person. *zen chuckle*

The intuitive picture I got from what you said was very beautiful, like hand fans, which pass gracefully through one another.

 

[Tohpol]

Hi topal,

The pituitary and pineal glands are an absolute. Here are a couple of sites to look at...
http://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/extra.html
http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/Provings/AyahuascaPinealgland.htm

Hi rs,

The pituitary and pineal glands are absolutes yes, but not the extrapolations you made in your post. That was my point:


The rising Kundalini pulls the energy up from Mother Earth through the nerve channels, into the medulla oblongata, through the pons area of the brain and then down into the pituitary gland behind the eyes. The increasing pituitary radiations then pass through the third ventricle to awaken the pineal gland which has received light from the higher dimensions. The feminine earth energy merges with the masculine pituitary gland and the feminine pineal gland receives the masculine unmanifest energy from Spirit. When the two awakened chakras’ essences meet in the third ventricle, there is the union and harmony of spirit into matter as the multidimensional forces of spiritual light merge with the matter of our third dimensional brain.

What would be interesting is to see if there is an equivalent "reflection" or "mirroring" of these processes at the neuro-chemical / molecular level, placing the language side by side. Where Science and Mysticism meet, as it were...

And yes, when I have asked an emotionally based question and the I Ching, Tarot, Sabian Symbols release an answer that is felt intuitively correct, I have felt that rush, I have felt all limitations and perceptions just vaporize in mid-year. And I also know I'm not the only one that has felt this.....many people I've spoken to and know have gone through it.

What you "felt is intuitively correct" may or may not be objectively true in terms of what is really going on. I just try to be open to the possibility that the whole picture is inevitably partial, especially in the realm of energy work. Due to that I'm sensitive to the words we use and the impressions they can give. I don't wish to rain on your parade or anything, just offering a counterpoint to your very interesting descriptions. I thank you for clarifying. And thanks for the links. :bows:

Topal

 

[sooo]

In my recent efforts to memorize the IMAGES as translated by Wilhelm I have been becoming more aware of the sequence and the story it appears to tell. However, I understand the standard sequence we all use is not the only one considered valid. Can anyone give me a little background on why we use the sequence we do and any thoughts on alternative patterns?

To return to Rosada's original post about patterns, remaining mindful of our brain's function to find and/or create patterns, even if or when no such pattern exists in reality, there is a continually returning thought about this, not only regarding patterns in the Yijing but of the Way. That thought or thing is anomaly. In everything I observe which appears to have an intrinsic order, there exists the anomaly. It seems as something the gods threw in there, as part of the pattern. Their intentions may have been to prevent system worship or self certainty. But moreover, anomaly may be the clasp which connects the string of pearls: the break in the pattern, necessary to distinguish its natural fluidity and freedom, like a dragon in the heavens. Anomaly doesn't, by default, disqualify a genuine pattern, it completes it. The unexpected is to be expected.

 

[jilt]

Once, in a bygone age as it feels, I wrote an article in which I worked through the sequence as we know it from Wilhelm. For explaining that sequence I used the terms "formal logic" and "psychological logic". Formal is e.g. the process of inversion, opposition, but also the one from Shao Yung and the sceme as shown in most books to find the gua.
Psychologic sequence is different. Hex 3 is very nice for explaing that. So, you have the formal opposition of heaven and earth. Now reality, how shall we begin? Oh, just throw in something and see where it ends. Sounds stupid to you? No, just think: thowing in: inner trigram thunder, see where it comes: water.
Hex 4 is hex 3 put upside down, formal logic, but in psychological terms also the normal opposition to the statement of 3 (I don't wan't to, it's stupid).
Then comes 5, something completely different of formal logic. The only thing going on since 3 is a jumping stream of water one could say. But, when the student has realeased the chains of hesitation the first thing the student has to learn is patience, to wait for the right moment, or process to mingle with, to put it more in terms of ongoing change. That is just a matter of good pedagogigs, psychology.
Then 6 is the inversion of 5, formal logic, in psychological sense comes automatically because in the student the drive to go on appears stronger then the drive to have patience. That will give problems of mingling in the stream. I Have the right to, I'm on a mission from God. A good discussion with a chairman is a nice exemple of regulated conflict. By the way, discussion always come into play over food or metaphorical food. Discussion is conflict, discussions are meant to be won.
Then something completely different with 8, but not. In formal terms water stays the inner trigram, but when you want to push things to the end, you need mass for your danger. The outside heavenly aspect has changed in it's opposite.
As a student from yi we all know that being unkind and waging war is never profitable, especially not in longer terms, it is going against the laws of nature, seldom it might be a neccesity to diminish losses.

So, arrived at hex 8, formal inversion of 7. Here the coming together is not because of fear, danger and need as in 7, but because people come together because it is nice to be together and share goods and food, not to conquer them (next lesson for student?).

Hex 9, no formal sequence. Something psychological it must be. In hex 8 people were gathered by a being (line 5) that gives positions and food , very basic way of gathering, medieval one could say. Hex 9 explains somehow that rather blunt medieval authority, the "blowing against the wind" kinds. Only by small talk, influence and perhaps a moment of the much appreciated courage in that kind of organization can one understand that situation in sequence with hex 8. It discribes the personality-structure of a knight (yes also from the knight of ni).

to be continued

 

[jilt]

Gua 10. Here we have a formal sequence, gua nr 9 has been put upside down. Now you have learned to start, hesitate and go anyway, have patience, learned to handle arguments, put mass behind the arguments and learned to loose, that giving favours is a better way to collect then win a war, bumped into an immovable authority with quite a simple mind, it is time to put all those things in practice, remeber the lessons (memory is the way of the ancestors) as good manners and be accepted in the circles of the true leader.

Gua 11. Here no formal sequence, or it must be the trigram heaven that takes all kinds of positions in 11, 12, 13, 14. When you are stimulated to put lessons into practice, you get organized in a way heaven likes, peace is the result.

Gua 12. gua 11 has been put upside down. Peace can only florish within a certain bandwidt (under conditions), love, flexebility and generosity are part of those conditions. There comes a moment that peace looks as if coming from itself. Then watch out, then you're not in peace anymore. Peace needs love and effort, not rewards, positions and medals.

Gua 13. No formal sequence except of course that returning trigram heaven since gua 9. Fire in heaven. When things go to the jobhunters, rewardists, medelalikers and other crude -but in appearance wel cultured folks, then it is time to put some passion in ideals to overcome that stationary situation.

Gua 14. this is gua 13 upside down, a formal sequence. Practice your ideals from 13, and your talents will appear, the things that make special in this life.

to be continued.

 

[pakua]

The unexpected is to be expected.

Or, to put it another way, nothing remains perfect forever...

 

[sooo]

Yes. Perfect symmetry must include imperfection, inconsistency and dissolution. In other words, individualism.

 

[waveCT]

A related query: am I right in thinking that, while the ninth wing gives us a sequence, it doesn't talk about hexagram numbers. Where or when were numbers attached to the hexagrams?

Is it a western convenience? perhaps we find it easier to recognise a number than a hexagram, whereas, perhaps, a person who accustomed to reading characters will have no trouble recognising a hexagram.

 

[jilt]

Dear Ctoz,

people that grew up in a culture with characters learned much more to think in images. Actually, in poetry they have a much more direct way of rhyming in lines and images. The sense for abstraction as the west only came to learn since the beginning of the 20th cetury is age-old in Chinese culture.
In the west is hardly understood why calligraphy and painting are so intimate in China. Only now people begin to understand, also because the western culture is much more evolving to an abundant use of image-language in film, commercial, logo, grafiti and photo. So, yes, for me it is easier to remember the numbers then the lines. But, if my keabord permitted hexagrams to type I would have used them....

continuing my little sequence-thing:

Gua 15
No formal sequencing. Perhaps you could say something like : the talents are your tools for realizing insprations in 14, the sweat from working with those tools you see in 15.

Gua 16
This is hex 15 turned upside down, formal sequence. Here the tools from 14 and 15 find a heavenly rhythm, the groove.

Gua 17.
Psychological sequence. After working and grooving so much you need some rest and comfort.

Gua 18.
formal sequence, gua 17 upside down. Relying to much on groove and comfort makes you forget about some essentials and things get spoiled.

 

[waveCT]

my apologies for interrupting

"if my keabord permitted hexagrams to type..." like this?

䷀
䷿

:bows:

 

[pocossin]

my apologies for interrupting

"if my keabord permitted hexagrams to type..." like this?

If how to type hexagrams is the problem, see

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=10114
Typable Hexagrams

▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄  ▄▄

Emphasis on primary trigrams:

☶
☴