Sequence of the Hexagrams

[heylise]

Frank, did you ever look at this? An old Yijing mystery solved It might be interesting. Pairs might be a bit different from what everyone thinks, because there are several upside-down hexagrams which are present but in an invisible way. In total there are 36 hexagram pairs..

Hex. 1 and 2 are not a pair, they are complementary in a different way than the other pairs. Same goes for 27 and 28, 29 and 30 and so on. Hex.1 makes a pair with hex.1

LiSe

 

[Sparhawk]

Frank, did you ever look at this? An old Yijing mystery solved It might be interesting. Pairs might be a bit different from what everyone thinks, because there are several upside-down hexagrams which are present but in an invisible way. In total there are 36 hexagram pairs..

And if anyone wants to read the actual article cited, it is here: Two Part Division

 

[rosada]

Hi Dennis,

Just wanting to agree with you that the second half of the I Ching seems to get much more into the finer details of what was originally presented in the first half. For example 23. Spitting Apart advises, "Thus those above can ensure their position only by giving generously to those below." I get a visual of someone climbing a mountain while throwing meat to the howling wolves nipping at his heels. Then 43. Breakthrough is the opposite of 23.:

---- - -
- - ---
- - ---
- - ---
- - ---
- - ---
23 43

but the advice is similar but now much more refined, "Thus the superior man dispenses riches downward and refrains from resting on his virtue." The feeling now seems to be one of wanting to help those below rather than just trying to save one's own skin. I see this as illustrating that at first we are very ego driven and share what we know only to keep others from devouring us whole. Then we evolve to the point of realizing we are all learning together and that sharing with you does not diminish me, rather it makes me more open to receive more, by sharing I am not just able to maintain my position, I'm able to go higher.

I find many other instances where the hexagrams of the second half seem to be enlarging on themes presented in the first. It seems to me hexagrams 36, 37, 38, and 39 all seem to be refining the ideas presented in 5. Waiting and 6. Conflict.

Although I do not understand the numerical reasons why the sequence should be in the order King Wen presents to us, I do see a very definite story line. It seems to me we are watching the developement of individual consciousness evolving to experience group consciousness without losing the individual sense of self. I may eventually write it all out and post this. Meanwhile, I think it's fascinating that so many others are also coming up with their own distinct understanding of what the pattern is for them and what that means for all of us.
Perhaps this is evidence of Pluto hovering over the last degrees of Sag (deep understanding of philosophy) before entering Capricorn for good at the end of the year (Manifestation of beliefs - maybe that's when we'll all be publishing our theories?!)

 

[fkegan]

Frank, did you ever look at this? An old Yijing mystery solved It might be interesting. Pairs might be a bit different from what everyone thinks, because there are several upside-down hexagrams which are present but in an invisible way. In total there are 36 hexagram pairs..

Hex. 1 and 2 are not a pair, they are complementary in a different way than the other pairs. Same goes for 27 and 28, 29 and 30 and so on. Hex.1 makes a pair with hex.1

LiSe

Hi LiSe and Luis,
Thanks for the citation to the complete article. There are 6 hexagrams that are symmetrical when tumbled on their heads, therefore the only way to systematically changed their line pattern is to treat their pair as if it were the resulting hexagram with 6 moving lines.

Four of the symmetrical hexagrams are homogeneous, all Yang, all Yin, Yang-Yin pairs, Yin-Yang pairs. The other two are composed of the same symmetrical trigrams doubled.

The rest change when tumbled and those not containing symmetrical trigrams will also change their trigram components. Both parent trigrams Ch'ien and Kun and one son and one daughter trigrams are symmetrical.

I suspect those facts account for the amazing mysteries Moore and friends have finally discovered and documented. What they fail to notice is that none of these mathematical curiosities have any roots in Chinese philosophy or number.

In the alternative, Chinese number seems to be based upon fundamental number theory principles. I would be intrigued by the Chinese names for the numbers 5,7,9 and their ideogram elements. I seem to remember them being insightful, but it takes me forever to find them again in Wieger, S.J. Also the clarity of the number 10 being a complete tally of ones and about the only symbol of perpendiculars that jumps out from ideograms seems also to note that it is a system of sets of ten.

Why would the first half of the Yi be made up of 3 sets of 10 and not half of a total universe of 64? Aren't there all sorts of ideograms and Chinese philosophy all about the division of the everything into three levels--the Planet Earth, human society and the Divine? The ideogram for king, as the one who integrates and understands all three pops up in my mind.

If the first half of the Yi hexagrams are composed of an essay upon each of the basics of Chinese philosophy described in a set of 10 hexagrams each...then what is left for the second half... traditionally it is said to begin with human relationships--hex 31 courtship and hex 32 marriage.

Or within the context of the sets of 10 analysis. The Monad or total picture is hex 31, sexual attraction between the youngest son subordinating himself below the youngest daughter (by trigram images). Hex 32 as marriage with the eldest son having taken his socially proper position atop the eldest daughter represents the negative pole of the Dyad--pure structure without any energy process involved.

hex 41 is the Monad of the set of 10 dealing with seeking the divine through sacrifice and at-one-ment (atonement). Hex 51 the Monad of the Divine making itself clearly felt as a power in human life. That completes 6 sets of 10. There are 64 possible figures of any graphic symbolism of 2 line images in a 6 place matrix. The remaining 4 are put at the end to show overall graphical symbolism, inside, outside, completing and finally starting so that the whole set of 64 ends with a new beginning as is appropriate to a cycle-process philosophy.

So how do great, ancient mysteries get solved by applying very modern, Western mathematical speculation about binary patterns, obvious structural pairs and an assumption that the most appropriate structural division divides the whole set into exactly equal halves, thus proving the number 64 is even. 64 is also a square--and of 8 which is the number of binary entities in a three place matrix--but so what?

Can any of these math details, lovingly expanded and related to various sets of imagery that arise automatically from the line structures, and searched within the traditional assumptions for great meaning that have been available to learned folks for 3 millennia truly claim to have finally found the magic answer?

Looking for historical explanations, I would suggest reviewing the history of how the Yi as part of the Imperial Civil Service System under Confucian reforms sought to recast the whole of the Yi--away from the empirical Taoist perspective and away from the subjective number theory speculations towards an objective, properly regulated perspective that was based upon a decision to avoid the gestalt imagery perspective with the assumption that there were two clear component graphic symbols, Yang and Yin each with a clear socially established proper role and number value that would allow interpretation of the Yi oracle as within the framework of Confucian moral instruction.

If Yang and Yin are just lines or discrete entities which are proper in their numerically proper places and relationships and incorrect when otherwise, then the Yi oracle becomes a much simpler thing to interpret as advice for Imperial bureaucrats who are all to be Yin to their rulers' Yang.

Generally, I believe great ancient mysteries are solved by looking with fresh eyes from a new perspective to see what clearly was straightforward and explicit originally, but overlaid with other stuff after the original insight was old enough and established enough to acquire magical and ritual alternatives to clear understanding...

Great background for personal flights of fancy though...

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Isn't 10 the tumbled version of 9? and 16 the same tumbled version, 6th line now 1st of 15?

All the even hexagrams have the lines of the WHOLE hexagram determined by the prior odd hexagram and the trigrams fall as they must when turned on their heads with the rest of the ENTIRE hexagram before them.

My question is why are 11, 13,15,17,19 together as a set--

07 :!: 08 :!: What I mean is, that 7-13, 51-57, 55-59 are complementary
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! while 9 and 15 are complementary with the even 16 and 10?
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! The structure would be "perfect" if either 9-10 or 15-16 were
15 !:: 16 ::! turned upside down, but they aren't ... which cause my WHY?
51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !::
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !::
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!!
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!!

Your question concerning 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 seen together as a set could be viewed
from another angle: Why are every second of all the pairs involved a "Earth-pair":

07 :!: 08 :!: "Earth-pair"
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!!
11 !!! 12 !!! "Earth-pair"
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!!
15 !:: 16 ::! "Earth-pair"
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!:
19 :!! 20 !!: "Earth-pair"
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:!
23 !:: 24 ::! "Earth-pair"

The last "Earth-pair" is turned upside down in relationship to the other "Earth-pairs".
I think it's because the pair is complementary with a "Lake-sequence-pair" ... that'll
say, that the "Lake-sequence" was more important when the sequence was invented
than the structure of chapter one? Or put in the words of Rosada to Dennis:
"Just wanting to agree with you that the second half of the I Ching seems to get much
more into the finer details of what was originally presented in the first half."

which I answer because 11 describes the abstract energy process, sunshine within the Earth

Sorry, but I don't buy your answer; instead I wonder why !!! is placed before !!!

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Hi Lienshan,

Sorry, but I don't buy your answer; instead I wonder why !!! is placed before !!!

Well, whatever benefit starting with an Earth trigram might have, as a hexagram in the 11th and thus Monad slot, Earth under Sunshine only represents natural reality, the hard earth baked in the sun which of its self goes nowhere, has no energy or growth (cf. hex 12).

I can not buy your answer since it is UNABLE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE ENTIRE KWS! No matter how tempting it might be to see a trigram series that ALMOST works, none of your examples ACTUALLY work, they come close for some parts of the series, perhaps all but one or two hexagrams in places, but a single counterexample is generally sufficient to disprove a theory.

My continuing question remains: Why must the King Wen Sequence be resolvable into trigram series? Or in the alternative, a complete and meaningful explanation in terms of the overall hexagram names and meanings demonstrates a major advance upon earlier sequences where only binary counter line places and trigrams were organized. One must try it to appreciate its subtle sophistication and deep insights.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

hi Frank

It's your use of the word "Sunshine" to describe trigram Heaven that I don't buy.
"Sunshine" don't match the original pictograph of hexagram 11, that look like:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_1-16/hex_e_11.htm

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Trigrams and hexagram...

hi Frank

It's your use of the word "Sunshine" to describe trigram Heaven that I don't buy.
"Sunshine" don't match the original pictograph of hexagram 11, that look like:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_1-16/hex_e_11.htm

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,

Now we get the meat of the dispute. I start with the HEXAGRAMS not trigrams. Hexagram One is clearly the sunshine that powers evaporating water and forming clouds that give rain that feeds the earth and the rivers--The Water Cycle.

The name for the trigram of 3 Yang lines I take as also Sunshine. This is clearly a later concept than simply humans receiving the gift of life and food from the Heavens where the sun is a major figure. It comes from a time when humans developed enough to deal with how the Divine brought about its life giving activities.

Then, the name for hex 11, in my Flux Tome is Dream Land (Gia Fu called it Utopia, Wilhelm Peace) The ancient character cited is about praying for a great harvest and getting it--all pretty much the same reality.

The question still remains what is the important unit of meaning in the Yi? Do the trigrams rule the hexagrams or are the hexagrams the essential primary realities of the Yi which are composed of line which can be bundled into images in terms of the trigrams.

Clearly more ancient sources would have only dealt with trigrams, they are the basic and most primitive images which can be found in the minimum component lines required to have a complete figure or an independent narrative of beginning, middle and end.

Was the KWS just an outgrowth of trigrams being doled out by a basic ordering of 8? Or were the innovations of the KWS founded upon an entire new and unique concept of meaning in terms of the whole hexagram and the matrix of the number system and number theory in sets of 10.

Thus, I answer your question about trigram Ch'ien being the same meaning as hexagram Ch'ien which is different from Hex 11, a Monad of its set of 10, but not hex 1 but the interaction of hex 1 with hex 2 to create the ideal situation with Heaven within the Earth or the energy of sunshine within the fertile fields producing the miracle of the next bountiful crop.

However, that still leaves unanswered my question to you: How can you maintain a trigram sequence as sole determination of the KWS when there are clear counterexamples. Some of the hexagrams fit your expectations, sometimes ALMOST all may fit--but NEVER do they all fit.

My explanation fits each and every one of the hexagrams of the KWS, only an alternative without ANY exceptions is appropriate. Which raises the other question: What makes the trigrams so important? They were developmental steps, but the King Wen Sequence is the prize and by then trigrams are just illustrative imagery.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

I start with the HEXAGRAMS not trigrams ...
How can you maintain a trigram sequence as sole determination of the KWS when there are clear counterexamples. Some of the hexagrams fit your expectations, sometimes ALMOST all may fit
--but NEVER do they all fit.

I start with both the hexagrams and the trigrams e.g. odd hexagrams complementary with odd hexagrams:

05 :!: !!! 07 :!: (Water)
13 !!! !:! 35 !:! (Fire)
33 !!! !:: 23 !:: (Mountain)
43 :!! !!! 19 :!! (Lake)

31 :!! !:: .......... (Lake/Mountain)
41 !:: :!! .......... (Mountain/Lake)

51 ::! ::! .......... (Thunder)
57 !!: !!: .......... (Wind)
55 ::! !:! .......... (Thunder/Fire)
59 !!: :!: .......... (Wind/Water)

These fourteen odd-numbered hexagrams are placed first in fourteen of the King Wen sequence pairs. The order of these hexagrams in the sequence create a trigram sequence. Most clear is, that the trigrams Thunder and Wind only occur in the last group of ten (using your own language) in chapter two (51 to 60) while the hexagrams 31 and 41 are first in the previous groups of ten (31 to 40 and 41 to 50) in chapter two.

The 8 complementary odd-numbered hexagrams with Heaven and Earth occur both in chapter one and two.

There are 18 odd-numbered hexagrams, that are complementary with even-numbered hexagrams. Four of these are part of the special both odd and even group 1-2, 27-28, 29-30 and 61-62. The remaining group of fourteen odd-numbered hexagrams complementary with even-numbered hexagrams are:

11 !!!
17 :!! ::!
53 !!: !::
63 :!: !:! hexagrams complementary when turned upside down

09 !!: !!! Heaven
15 !:: Earth
25 !!! ::! Heaven
45 :!! Earth

03 :!: ::! Water
21 !:! ::! Fire
37 !!: !:! Fire
39 :!: !:: Water
47 :!! :!: Water
49 :!! !:! Fire

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

KWS and hex 2 as details of the elevations of Earth topography

Hi lienshan,

Why don't ALL the hexagrams and trigrams fit your expected results?

Why don't the ones that don't fit disprove your theory? Is there anything that would show, indicate, prove that the ancient trigram sequences are NOT essential to the King Wen Sequence at all?

I read Sergio's post on the 3 Yi's noting the two older ones, with heavy trigram emphasis were only used by Chou times by professional diviners who continue their use (to today I guess). But everyone else used the King Wen which had a far broader appeal and more general insights...

I did note that hexagram 2 is not just trigram K'un doubled. It is a matrix of a topography map. The six lines represent various elevations starting with sea level (and including all the undersea trenches, etc.) Sea level is a constant and events at that level run with general principles like the cycle of the seasons, therefore the judgment that when frost appears underfoot the winter is about to descend in full force.

The second line place is a low elevation, but above sea level, this is the topography of a major river mouth which would be a port and trade center where a great city will naturally develop. Thus the ruler of the hexagram and its judgment.

The third line place is the elevation of bottom land where the fertile silt in the runoff water helps with the development of good crop land. That is the place of lots of work in the fields with control of the harvest not important until the season is over and the best possible harvest brought in.

The fourth place is the higher elevations, like hillsides... not mountains yet, but still inconvenient for the best fields. Thus it has the judgment of the tied up sack--could be fertile land, but will require special preparation that is only worth the hassle in special circumstances.

The fifth line place is a high though not ultimately high mountain elevation. This is where the elite spend the summer. It is not an area for simple cropland, rather a place of lovely views suitable for those with golden to spare seeking the ideal second home location.

The six line place is the spectacularly high mountain elevation which is an awesome sight of Divine presence. Here the majesty of the great mountain challenges the grandeur of the celestial heavens--however, it remains still just elevation down on Earth. Thus the judgment that the earth dragon fights with the celestial dragon.

This is the King Wen Sequence giving meaning to the overall hexagrams forming a single meaningful overall image into which each trigram or line place takes its special place. It is a far more interesting and insightful analysis of the hexagram per sequence than just sets of trigrams that sometimes sort of fit a pattern, but never totally.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

hi Frank

Why don't ALL the hexagrams and trigrams fit your expected results?

Because I have no expectations.

Why don't the ones that don't fit disprove your theory?

Because I change my theory.

I read Sergio's post on the 3 Yi's noting the two older ones, with heavy trigram emphasis were only used by Chou times by professional diviners who continue their use (to today I guess). But everyone else used the King Wen which had a far broader appeal and more general insights...

Yes, very interesting post. The Guicang sequence might be like the King Wen sequence with changed positions of Earth and Heaven as indicated by the almost fitting pattern of less and more yang-lines?

The two ways to divine, focused on either trigrams or zhouyi-texts, is described in this article:

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/yiology/sub3/tangDynasty.asp

Put in short: You belong to the philosophical school and I to the image-number school

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

hi Frank

Because I have no expectations.

Because I change my theory.

Yes, very interesting post. The Guicang sequence might be like the King Wen sequence with changed positions of Earth and Heaven as indicated by the almost fitting pattern of less and more yang-lines?

The two ways to divine, focused on either trigrams or zhouyi-texts, is described in this article:

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/yiology/sub3/tangDynasty.asp

Put in short: You belong to the philosophical school and I to the image-number school

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,

First, I must congratulate you upon achieving Nirvana with the transcendence of expectations.ompom:

Personally, I have taken the Huck Finn alternative, not finding the Aunt Polly crowd to my liking so I have accepted the other alternative...

I enjoyed the article you cite, though those two schools are both Confucian and since the Tang Dynasty they are the same, probably not totally accurate to describe Yi studies today.

I am not in any way, shape or form Confucian, my orientation is more to the Taoist-Buddhist side of things. :bows:

As to the explanation of the KWS... there yet remains the detail that the system of sets of 10 =1+2+3+4 still works for each and every one of the 64 Yi gua and all other theories of trigram sequences or Yang-Yin balances do not. Q.E.D.

Now, moving on to a next point...

In order to have a Yin-Yang balance in the hexagrams, the open spaces in the gua matrix have to be considered as Yin lines. Do you know when that happened historically?

My suspicion is that the notion of making two kinds of lines, rather than the more fundamental gestalt principle where both Yang and Yin start with the element for mountain since they both represent aspects of what stands out as a clear image--differing in Yang being what waves a pennant or focus and Yin being the dark valley or background surrounding the mountain that makes the earth stand out as a mountain---is part of the Confucian Establishment turning a version of Yi studies into an Imperial Civil Service Exam.

Plato did a similar thing in the West, taking the objective details of some of Pythagorean number theory and making them into Platonic abstractions for his school.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

As to the explanation of the KWS... there yet remains the detail that the system of sets of 10 =1+2+3+4 still works for each and every one of the 64 Yi gua and all other theories of trigram sequences or Yang-Yin balances do not. Q.E.D.

These four King Wen hexagram pairs are complementary:

11 !!! 12 !!!
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!:
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!!
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

These eight hexagrams are seen as complementary pairs made of only two trigrams:

11 !!! 12 !!!
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!:
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::!
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

The hexagrams 11, 31 and 41 are in front of ½ of your groups of ten hexagrams ...
what makes the other ½ extraordinary?

01 !!! !!!
21 !:! ::!
51 ::! ::!

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Hi Lienshan,
Hexagram One is all Yang lines, it is extraordinary in many ways. Hex 51 is made up of the trigram chen doubled which is thunder and also very special as the clear power of heaven, awesome and undeniable, that makes an impression by its massive power, light and sound. Hexagram 21 is thunder and lightning following each other as the clear expression of cause and effect. Each of them embodies the essence of the entire set of 10 of which it is the Monad.

Hexagram One and the Water Cycle I have done a number of times it is obvious from the trigram images of the hexagrams 2-10 and the ideogram Ch'ien for hex one.

Hexagram 21 is the Monad of the third set of 10, how the law of cause and effect expresses Justice and Karma or the Divine process in natural and human life. This set ends with the final dichotomy of hex 29 as the maximum intensity of cause and effect--the doubling of the trigram Kan of the water running through deep places in the topography with great energy and speed, the mountain streams running down the mountainside. Hexagram 30 is the final quiescence or peaceful state of this set of hexagrams of cause and effect. It is the trigram Li doubled and in that sense the sun moving along its stable path from sunrise to sunset every day. It is also as a set of 6 lines together the bright flames that cling to the log as their fuel releasing its stored energy and eliminating all structure into ashes.

Each and all of the hexagrams whose KWS ordering ends in 1 are extraordinary for their ability to express in their process the entire overall process of the set of 10. It is a general statement of an overview, as each other hexagram has its specific location and matrix meaning to express as well. They are not extraordinary for their trigrams or their line places or any other component or detail. They are amazing in their ability to fulfill their obligation to express their meaning in terms of the overall matrix of the positions.

And still as always, they have a rationale that fits each and every one of the 64 hexagrams exactly which is generally all one can expect or demand of any explanation.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

In order to have a Yin-Yang balance in the hexagrams, the open spaces in the gua matrix have to be considered as Yin lines. Do you know when that happened historically?

hi Frank

It happened between 1100 BC and 250 BC (the time of the oldest known Zhouyi and Guicang).

E.g. hexagram 8 was written in Zhouyi and <|<<<< in Guicang but :|<<<< on a 1100 BC pottery pat.

The oldest known Guicang was so fracmatory, that it's impossible to reconstruct the hexagram sequence.
Hexagram Earth was according to legend first in the sequence. That's why I try to explain the King Wen sequence from the theory, that the two sequences only differ in the positions of Earth and Heaven?

http://www.mandala.dk/view-blog.php4?blogID=591

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Hi Lienshan,
In order to DRAW hexagrams there must be Yin and Yang line places. However, I find it far easier to explain the meaning of hexagrams from just the line places which are Yang with the open Yin spaces being part of the background matrix and thus not explicitly noticed.

If the Guicang begins in 250 BCE, that makes a long, long time the King Wen was around where the notion of a Yin line may not have been around. I would assume that Confucius with his commentary would have established the objective representation of the Yi hexagrams in terms of the Yin lines bearing a similar proper relationship of the wife in the proper family.

If the notion of Yin Lines begins with Confucius, then there is a clear split between Lao Tzu and Taoist perspective and Confucian or Imperial Civil Service Exam perspective.

Frank

 

[lienshan]

If the Guicang begins in 250 BC ...

hi Frank

More clear: Both Zhouyi and Guicang are invented before 250 BC but nobody knows when?

The Mawangdui silk Zhouyi hexagrams were made of lines as we know them today.
The Wangjiatai bamboo slip Guicang hexagrams were too made of two kind of lines, straight _ or /\ shaped.
The ancient lines were made of the numbers X 5 and /\ 6 and t 7 and )( 8 and _ 1

lienshan

 

[lienshan]

And now back to business again:

A weakness in your phytagorean theory is the explanation of why the King Wen sequence is divided into
two chapters? Six groups of ten hexagrams plus four hexagrams left need no division into two chapters?

I think that the reason why is to underline the last four complementary hexagrams of each chapter:

27 !:: ::! 61 !!: :!!
28 :!! !!: 62 ::! !::
29 :!: :!: 63 :!: !:!
30 !:! !:! 64 !:! :!:

27-28 and 61-62 look to me like "the rest" placed next-last in the sequence to be "out of the way"
29-30 and 63-64 look to me like to be more impotant, because they are placed last in each chapter

http://www.mandala.dk/view-blog.php4?blogID=591

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

Why Yi has division into two halves

And now back to business again:

A weakness in your phytagorean theory is the explanation of why the King Wen sequence is divided into two chapters? Six groups of ten hexagrams plus four hexagrams left need no division into two chapters?

I think that the reason why is to underline the last four complementary hexagrams of each chapter:

27 !:: ::! 61 !!: :!!
28 :!! !!: 62 ::! !::
29 :!: :!: 63 :!: !:!
30 !:! !:! 64 !:! :!:

27-28 and 61-62 look to me like "the rest" placed next-last in the sequence to be "out of the way"
29-30 and 63-64 look to me like to be more impotant, because they are placed last in each chapter

http://www.mandala.dk/view-blog.php4?blogID=591

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,

I would cite the ideogram for King as an indication that the notion that groupings in terms of 3 levels--natural world, human world, ideal world are fundamental in Chinese philosophy. The possible 64 patterns thus conveniently form two such groupings of sets of 10 (fundamental in Chinese numbers) and make for two halves to Yi.

The second half begins with relationship of individual to individual, then individual to Divine and finally Divine to human. This leaves 4 hexagrams and they are chosen since they have meaning from the overall appearance or look of the line patterns.

The hexagrams that are symmetrical when tumbled upon their heads are placed in the beginning and end of the first half, and at the end of the entire Yi. The final four hexagrams are their own set based upon their lines forming a graphical pattern overall.
That leaves to two pair that begin and end the first half. Hexagram One and Two are special in every way. That then leaves the hexagrams 27,28,29,30 which serve double duty--they both fit into the Pythagorean double dichotomy polarities of the set of cause and effect; and also they are symmetrical pairs.

It is all very elegant in its form--an order of great philosophical poetry.

The historical examples of the hexagrams are numbers or odd and even patterns? When do the notions of Yin and Yang appear and how? Is there use of these terms before Confucius?

Frank

 

[lienshan]

Thanks again to anyone who looked at my articles.

I looked again and found your illustration of the King Wen sequence:

http://www.appositive.net/oysterbay/iching/kingwen.pdf

You write the following about Implications of the Sequence:

"It is a combinatorial assortment with many interwoven symmetries. For instance, there is a wavelike alternation of predominating yin or yang. Hexagram #1 has six yang lines and #2 has six yin lines, then #3 and #4 both have two yang with four yin lines, then #5 and #6 both have four yang with two yin lines, then #7 and #8 both have one yang and five yin lines, then #9 and #10 both have five yang and one yin lines. Any breaks in the alternation are marked by figures having three yin and three yang lines."

I have an alternative way to explain the wavelike yin or yang pattern:

Every second hexagram/pair consist of more yanglines than the previous except #1 #2 and #43-44 #45-46

The most important hexagrams of three yin and yang lines are in my opinion:

11 !!! 12 !!!
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!:
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::!
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

Each complementary hexagrampair in this special group consist of only two trigrams and the hexagrams occupie vital positions in the King Wen sequence.

lienshan

 

[fkegan]

The most important hexagrams of three yin and yang lines are in my opinion:

11 !!! 12 !!!
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!:
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::!
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

Each complementary hexagram pair in this special group consist of only two trigrams and the hexagrams occupie vital positions in the King Wen sequence.

Hi Lienshan,
These are the hexagrams with 3 Yang lines together, 3 Yang lines in the middle, 3 Yang lines at the ends or extremes, and 3 Yang lines interlaced with open Yin spaces. They are also the Monads of their set except for 63/64 which are the final hexagrams overall as well as the archetypal counterpoise to the beginning hexagrams 1/2 where all the Yang lines are together. These two final hexagrams have the Yang and yin lines evenly homogenized throughout.

They are the hexagrams where Yang lines bunch up one way or another.

Frank

 

[merrymusk]

Hello to all, I am a new" friends" member (so far) and am learning all I can at present, having recently "discovered" the I Ching, even though I always knew about it I had never had the time until now to investigate it.
Now I am fascinated and really happy to have found Clarity !!!
I have been having difficulty in taking on board the concept of differing hexagram sequences published by translators. I have a copy of Edward L. Shaughnessy, ...
and of course his sequence is different from any of the King Wen translationhs... I also find that many writers who work from the translators seem to interpret differently quite often...I can understand this !
Can you tell me what your thoughts on which translations, should be used generally and should one take on board the Mawangdui Texts as well or instead of...?
I realise there must be a point where we need to go our own way on our interpretations of the "book" we tend to use. At this stage of having in hand the Mawangdui as well perhaps it is a matter of absorbing it in our own notes as we see fit.
Any helpful comments would be so welcome !
Cheers,
Merrymusk

 

[Sparhawk]

Can you tell me what your thoughts on which translations, should be used generally and should one take on board the Mawangdui Texts as well or instead of...?
I realise there must be a point where we need to go our own way on our interpretations of the "book" we tend to use. At this stage of having in hand the Mawangdui as well perhaps it is a matter of absorbing it in our own notes as we see fit.
Any helpful comments would be so welcome !
Cheers,
Merrymusk

Welcome. IMO, you don't start your Yijing "apprenticeship" with the Mawangdui version of it. That's something you should be studying down the road. You can't go wrong by getting a copy of Richard Wilhelm's translation. Also, check Hilary's list of recommended books, here. Also, she offers very interesting and comprehensive courses, here

Cheers.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Merrymusk and Welcome

Before deciding upon which texts or translations to consider there is a decision about what it is you wish to find from the Yi. Divination from the Yi is its own art and that you explore by asking Yi questions and interpreting its oracles as your answers.

The various texts and sequences are a more advanced philosophical study. Personally, I prefer the alternative of finding the meaning of the Yi from its King Wen Sequence numbers according to the Chinese numbers in sets of 10. And the meaning of the specific hexagram from the placement of the Yang lines in the 6 places of the hexagram matrix.

Then you can use any text or translation as a decorative skin over the meaning of the King Wen Sequence and the Yang line structure. In general, the Wilhelm is the paradigm of Yi science so it is a nice text to begin one's studies with.

What brings you to consider various texts in your exploration of the Yi? Do you consult the oracle or study the Confucian Classics?

Frank

 

[merrymusk]

Big thanks to Luis and Frank for your posts.

I have been fascinated by all things Chinese from when I was very young and travelled as a tourist to China in 1993 - 4 with my husband.

Later (1998)when I had barely heard of the Yi a friend told me he was "reading the I Ching" literally, and even then I wondered at his phrasing of "reading it", as I knew it was some sort of oracle..... a couple of days later I found and bought a very new copy of Shaughnessy's translation of the Mawangdui Texts in a little bookshop in Nukualofa in Tonga in the South Pacific where we were living and working... It didn't make much sense to me but, I remained intrigued with it and now have time for this interesting thing !
I have over the past several months been reading for myself and family members.
I have copies of several books on the Yi now, including Wilhelm and Stephen Karcher and also James Legge, all of which I have examined well. I am more and more intrigued and excited by the Yi as I go and have read and sorted through a lot of wheat and chaff on the Yi on the net.
I have made my own "yarrow" sticks out of bamboo from my garden and use these as well as sixteen shells, sixteen tiny sticks of black coral, and three coinlike pieces of
black coral ... all used for casting. I have been lucky enough to purchase some genuinely ancient Chinese coins but as they are too precious to throw around I use
modern brass I Ching coins now and the bamboo sticks !
I guess you can say that I have become fairly obsessed now as time and again I find so much sense and logic in the Yi's answers! and I am far beyond the "one hexagram fits all questions" concept now.
I see your point about jumping ahead too much with examining the Mawangdui and will keep it aside a bit for a "decorative skin" over the still more familiar by then, base of King Wen's sequence.

Thanks again
Merrymusk

 

[Sparhawk]

I have made my own "yarrow" sticks out of bamboo from my garden and use these as well as sixteen shells, sixteen tiny sticks of black coral, and three coinlike pieces of black coral ... all used for casting.

Hi there,

Wow. You made those out of black coral? Do you have pictures of it? I'd love to see them.

 

[merrymusk]

Hi again Luis,
Yes, I will get a shot or two tomorrow and post them up.
Cheers
Merrymusk.

 

[merrymusk]

pics of black coral "coins" and 16 miniature "tokens"

Good morning from Australia, Luis, Frank and others !!!
Here are

pics of sticks, shells, coral tokens and "coins"..
hope they come through OK some are a bit unfocussed.
Thanks for your interest. Black Coral is pretty rare and endangered but is collected offshore near the Tongan Trench by Tongan Divers and used for souvenir sales and gifts and ceremonies. I have thought the shells and the coral would be a nice touch as they are rare, old, and may have had an unmarked turtle passing by at some time on the edge of the deep ! All a bit of fun really !
Cheers
Merrymusk

 

[merrymusk]

Hi Luis and Frank
Unable to get my pics of the black coral tokens to load.
Will try another way.
Get back to you later.
Merrymusk

 

[fkegan]

Hi Merry musk,
You uploaded the address in your computer, instead of uploading the pix to be found at that address into the system here under manage attachments. Probably also important that your pix have one of the file extensions listed and be the size required too.

Oh, and speaking of the Sequence of the Hexagrams... have you checked out my Flux Tome (I Ching in American) page on my website in my signature? It gives the structural analysis and the meaning of the hexagrams from their line patterns and numbering without any translation at all...

Luis,
I just finished watching the movie 'the number 23' which is a simple enough thriller. Of course life would have been easier on Mr. Sparrow if someone clued him in to the Yi, hex 23 which meant his life was coming apart--especially with his wife feeding him back his own book to freak him out.

Frank